Hitoshi Sakimoto

Hmm, I just rated you a 5 for coming out and doing that...It's been nice knowing you, once the Sakimoto crew is done here.

That said, I don't disagree with anything you just said. I like much of Breath of Fire V and parts of Legaia: Duel Saga and Final Fantasy Tactics (a MUCH better score than FFXII, though not exactly ideal for hour-long battles either) and of course, Bubble Ghost! That's about the extent of my liking anything Sakimoto-related. Too often, I feel like his music does too little in a piece to be effective ("That's it?") or he simply puts too much and makes his music sound busy, with parts that don't seem to work together that well.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Odd...I probably apply most of what you said about Sakimoto directly to Naoshi Mizuta and probably a great deal moreso. I can usually tell within seconds something's a Mizuta track and from that point on, listening through the end is a great feat that I find myself unworthy of fulfilling. Sakimoto isn't my favorite, but I've at least found some tracks of his appealing and break from the huge amount of tracks within a work that do sound similar and unappealing ("Phon Coast" would be my immediate example, as I have neither the time, patience or files anymore to go through the FFXII OST)...Mizuta has managed to be awful and predictable in every instance I've heard his muzak. He couldn't even produce convincing Megaman music (from Megaman and Bass, he was a composer).

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by BurningRanger

Well I disagree about Naoshi Mizuta, I loved his score for FFXI but admittedly that is all I have heard from him. However, certainly you agree, if you have listened extensively to FFXI, that each track was distinctly different from the others, no matter how flawed you found them to be?

Not at all...Like I said, I found in every instance I could pick his tracks out from Uematsu's and Tanioka's and each time that happened, it was matter of time before I simply HAD to get to another track. I find his music bland, lifeless, repetitive and predictable, although IIRC, he does change up his synths and instrument usage more than Sakimoto does in a single work. I recently got to hear "Promathia's Theme" (from the Chains of Promathia expansion) and sure enough, it was exactly what I was expecting based on hearing FFXI's score. As far as "extensive listening"...I simply wasn't convinced his tracks were worth more than the minute or so I was giving them towards the back end of the OST after getting through the whole first disc alive. I shudder to think of playing the game with them droning in the background.

I just find Naoshi Mizuta a very odd counterargument for Sakimoto, since he's actually one of the few composers I dislike far moreso than Sakimoto.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

One thing that does bear mention...A lot of the Sakimoto supporters seem to be saying that "the more you listen, the more you understand the music." I have two initial issues with this:

1. This is true of any composer and nearly any piece of music (even so-called "simple" melody-harmony-percussion pieces). Sakimoto is not special in this regard.
2. Normally for a track to be repeated even once by a listener, it has to appeal on a certain fundamental level. Maybe not so much melody...Maybe it'll be the bassline or the instrument usage. Basically, you have to like at least some of a track in order to WANT to replay it. I mean, "Tri-Section", "Electricity Supply Building" or "Apoplexy" didn't jive with me the first time I heard them, but I found at least something moderately appealing in them...all are quite enjoyable now. "Battle for Freedom"...Still sounds like 9 minutes of absolutely nothing and I've heard it 5 times. Same for "Limestone Quarry" and "Factory" (Vagrant Story).

Taisei: What site are you talking about? I've never heard anything about that. I find Sakimoto hate to be pretty normal in accordance with the full list of composers out there and given his output...He has his supporters as well. Frankly, I find him much more popular than he deserves to be.

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Originally Posted by RainMan

2)You partially proved my point. Did you not enjoy these pieces considerably more after spending more time with them?

You seem to have missed the point...I said some of his pieces had enough to them to make me want to replay them. Those listed were some of them and thus, I did end up enjoying them more. The ones listed AFTER them, however, haven't convinced me they're worth a second or third go-around and remain as unappealing as they did the first time. In that sense, Sakimoto is no different from any other composer, band or musician out there. Spending more time listening to his material is not going to make the listener enjoy or appreciate it more if one does not initially find it at least moderately appealing.

I was speaking idiomatically.

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Its unfair to assume that any given person is going to judge a piece of music only according to a very sketchy initial impression.
If I had said, "Oh ya know, I don't really like Prokofiev's Toccata. It sounds too strange! I have heard it once and I think its terrible, so I guess I won't listen to it ever again." Then I would be a great fool and overconfident in my abilities to analyze something properly in due fashion. Music, to me, is a journey.

Certain pieces of music simply require more time to appreciate. Why? Because the musical makeup is such that the beauty present in the music isn't clear at first glance. It requires more time to work its magic.

You are making the claim that we only appreciate what we like up front and that is all that's worthy of examination, and I simply think that is rather false.

No...My claim is that people will find more to like in music the more they listen to it. Sakimoto's fanboys make this claim, while not realizing it is largely the same across the board for anyone. In that respect, Sakimoto is nothing special. Even a piece I like nothing about, I will understand it better through repeated listening, even if I don't actually like it more. It becomes a matter of economics at that point...Do I REALLY want to waste my time trying so hard to like something I'm hating, even if I AM understanding it more? Doesn't it just make more sense to junk this and move on to something else?

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Why does that matter in this discussion anyways? The gameplay in Final Fantasy Tactics is such, that the gamer will hear most music in the game multiple times anyways, whether they like it at first glance or not. So, the player is forced to become more familiar with the music.

I know...I'm well aware of that. Consequently, I believe Tactics is an OST that works far better out of context. Very few pieces made me like them more by hearing them looped for hours on end. The ones I did enjoy were ones that I took at least some form of liking to at the start. On the same hand, I find Tactics to be comparably one of his more enjoyable OST's...I do not plan on playing Vagrant Story or FFXII, partly based on what I've heard of the music in both (though the actual gameplay is an equal deterant in both cases).

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Furthermore, you are needlessly eliminating an important step from the musical listening process and assuming everyone follows that same standard. Music can and does grow on us through invention. That is the main point I am making...not to be confused with the degree with which we like a piece the first time we hear it.

I suppose it would depend on how "inventive" we find Sakimoto's music. I don't particularly find him to be one of the more inventive composers out there who will present new and exciting ways to enjoy music, whereas most of his supporters do. Therefore, my rewards for extended listening are questionable at best and a complete waste of time at worst, since I manage to sense a similar feeling when I dislike a piece of his (that is, a piece will feel underdeveloped or simply too busy and undefined to be enjoyable).

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Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek

I'm afraid I am going to have to disagree with you, and agree with RainMan. When I heard my first sampling of Sakimoto's music, absolutely nothing about it appealed to me. I hated it. There was nothing about any of the music that made me want to listen to it again. The melodies were not easily discernible and many of the tracks were very dissonant. But against my own will, I forced myself to continue to listen. I thought to myself "There has to be something about this music that causes people to adore it so much.". And I was determined to find out what that something was. So, I burned the FFT soundtrack to CDs and listened to them in the car. In other people's cars. When I was doing the dishes. Whenever I could, really. And eventually, as I began to memorize the content of the tracks, certain ones among them began to stand out. Certain unique rhythms, interesting interplays of instruments, a melody that I didn't notice before.

And before long, without even realizing it, I too had become a big fan of this soundtrack.

It went much the same way with the VS soundtrack. There were a few songs that stood out, but many that I didn't like. But over time, I got to know each and every song, its intricacies, what made it unique. It is still my favorite Sakimoto soundtrack.

But...My point is if you were to force yourself to like ANY music to that extent by literally forcing yourself to have constant exposure to it, you would begin to like and understand it more (especially if a couple of pieces appealed to you in the first place, even to a minimal extent). What you just said was you didn't like Sakimoto's music at first and you forced yourself to end up liking it. If people made that effort for just about any composer, track or album they dislike at first, they would end up enjoying them (or at the least, appreciating them) at the end. I simply find that isn't the case in real life music listening. Hence, Sakimoto isn't an exception.

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Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek

No... I didn't force myself to like it. That's impossible. I forced myself to listen to it until I discovered just what it was about the music that was likable. It was well worth the effort.

And aside from that, how is my own listening not "real life" listening?

You can do that with anyone and end up with the same effect. I don't understand why you would force yourself to listen to something if you didn't think there was something deeper there for you to enjoy to begin with. You sounded like you really wanted to enjoy Tactics and you kept listening until you actually did.

So...I take it you give every single composer (including ones you like and ones you dislike) this same exact treatment? As far as "real life" listening goes, I simply don't have the time to extend to appreciating and enjoying music from composers and albums I see little appeal in, considering how much is out there. Although oddly enough, Tactics is one of the OST's I've probably spend the most amount of time at least making an attempt to enjoy. It's not bad...I have a much higher opinion of it now than I did back in 99 and it's far more enjoyable than either Vagrant Story or FFXII (both of which I lost interest in), but I still only have about 1/4 of it on my harddrive.

Originally Posted by jb

Not necessarily. If I don't find the music interesting to begin with, it's unlikely that I'll enjoy it at a future date. It's not a matter of "enjoying" the music for me. I need it to have depth as well.

Maybe not "enjoy", but repeated listening will give a better overall understanding of it, even if you hated everything about it.

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Originally Posted by Taisai

Indeed, we know why you bothered to say it for Sakimoto. As you mentioned first, you simply can't understand the craze around Sakimoto at all and then felt liking inflaming Sakimoto supporters. So, you said 'people hear Sakimoto's music not because it's good, but because it's from FF or other franchises'

As far as I know, Sakimoto's first super-mainstream work was FFT. I don't recall seeing his name prior to that (and I mean way back in 98-99-ish...Back when Uematsu, Mitsuda and maybe Simomura/Ito/Kikuta were the only VGM composers you "had" to know by name). And it WAS an impressive feat getting that type of sound out of a Playstation sound chip...That was one of the few games I remember hearing a lot of open praise for the music at the time. But would it have mattered on a game no one played? From there, he went on to the less-mainstream Vagrant Story and Breath of Fire V before settling into FF12. Those aren't all of his works, but those are probably his 4 main ones (not counting Ogre games). Therefore, I think it's fair to say he got his jumpstart from a well known game series, at least in the public's eye. I'm sure the 5-10 people outside Japan who knew of him prior to that were glad to see him get the publicity.

Like niki said, it's the same for everyone. In reality, Yasunori Mitsuda would still be a niche name without the Chrono games (massive understatement), Uematsu would just have been "another composer" in the NES age without Final Fantasy (with questionable prospects moving forward without the series...Rad Racer and 3D World Runner have fine music, but nothing that supercedes anything in the NES age) and even a hack like Naoshi Mizuta would still be lingering in obscurity without a true FF game to his name (as he did with Capcom, as a third or forth string composer). Look no further than Noriyasu Agematsu and Masato Kouda, who are getting their chance with the Wild Arms series after years of niche projects (and Michiko Naruke, who was completely obscure prior to getting the original Wild Arms gig and now has raging fanboys emailing her to update her friggin website and worrying about her health). And hell...No one gave a fuck about Masashi Hamauzu or Junya Nakano until after FFX. I remember how tepid the response was when both were announced to be working on the next FF game. Both SF2 and Dewprism had their fans, but not in the ravenous sense you see both supported in nowadays (though maybe Hama more than Naka). And you still never see Chocobo's Mysterious Dungeon or Another Mind come up in hardly any type of conversation.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Daniel DeCastro

Does anyone here experience Galvanic Skin Response or "Goosebumps", "Chills" etc. when listening to Sakimoto's music? If not, have you ever experienced this with other music or no music at all? I for one get it alot from Sakimoto, it is a really nice experience. I should note that GSR is not merely the physical experience of goosebumps, but a heightened emotive state of mind in which one's brain is stimulated with a rush of mental imagery, sense of atmosphere, past memories, ecstasy, stress relief, and other related difficult to explain cognitive experiences.

To Sakimoto's music, no...I've enjoyed several pieces of his a great deal, but never to that extent. I have with plenty of music in general though, so I know what you're refering to, although it's generally a one-shot deal...The tracks where the effect lasts for more than a couple listens are few and far between (or at least require time to recharge between listens).

There's nowhere I can't reach.