The Immigration Protests

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

Never before have I seen such blatant disregard of the laws of this nation by its own citizens who sit here and defend criminals.

But hey, that's the left for you.

You have such a deep hatred for the world. What are you majoring in in college?

It is already a misdemeanor to cross the border illegaly.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

One thing I love about all of this, is the increased use of the term "undocumented workers." Last I remember, an undocumented worker would have been somebody who wasn't paying taxes. Not that people making below minimum wage would actually be paying any taxes outside of Sales, but the point still stands that any way you look at it, they're blatantly breaking the law.

Yes, these people are breaking the law, and they are illegal in the country, but it's not because they want to. I came to the country legally, and only those who have tried to go through the process know how difficult it is. Under regular law if you are not deemed "brilliant" or "extremely talented" it takes an excess of 7-10 years to get approved to come to the country. It's crazy! This country is made of immigrants.

You know, this same debate must have happened inumerous times in American History. It must once have been aimed towars the Irish, the Italians, and everyone else in the mix.

People have an inherent right to emigrate to America, that's the point of the country!

It's not beside the point that a lot of the jobs that immigrants fill Americans won't do.

Want to clean up bathrooms for $8.00? No? Well, an immigrant does, so he has a job, and you don't. It's capitalism, a person who can offer a product (in this case labor) for less will profit.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

I make 7.50 an hour detailing steel, cleaning bathrooms, the kitchen, and the entire office.

Capitalism indeed.

I guess it depends on where you live. I am still in high school and I make $13 an hour, $20/hour on sundays.

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No it isn't. While you might make the argument that the country was founded by immigrants, most of the founding fathers were already members of established American aristocracy.

I don't need to make that argument, it is true.

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American identity has been shaped by immigrants, yes, but those were the ones that we wanted.

The fact of the matter is, though, that we do want these people. It's just a matter of taxation. Illegals only contribute in a capitalistic sense, while taking everything from social services. It's not fair to American citizens that these people can just come over and work, while not observing any of our laws.

A Day Worker program would be great if the proposed bill didn't offer a path for citizenship.

Here is the thing: the market is not in an incredible burden because of illegals right now. People could simply follow legistlation to allow these immigrants to BECOME legal. They'd bring tax revenue in then, and everything would be well.

BUT NOOOO. These are CRIMINALS. GOD FORBID you help a CRIMINAL even! YOU SHOULD GO TO JAIL!

You are just too fucking spiteful of a human being. Because of people like you I am moving out of this country.

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Originally Posted by Bradylama

Well, I'm white. Of course I don't have a problem with it.

Whatever the fuck happened to needing a warrant to search people and their belongings?

Oh right, it went out the window with this fucking douche of a president.

Guess it all makes sense.

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I think the government needs to lock down the boarder with the use of the military. I'm sure if they were charged with the task of protecting their homeland they would do an outstanding job. I'm sure you would see drug flow through our board come to a complete stop.

No one would bring drugs over if there was no market for them in the US.

Plus, this confuses the issues: there are hard working people who want to embrace the American dream and help thrust this nation forward among the criminals that trespass the border.

I guess that doesn't matter.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

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Second, why do you reward someone for breaking our laws? It is like telling me that you will give me a reward for robing you everyday of your life! These people are STEALING our services illegally, and any sane person would see that rewarding them for breaking the law only encourages them to do it!

How would aiding them in become legal and STOP breaking the law be rewarding them?

Also, it's only HUMAN to help others. Are you human?

Plus, what do you want to do once all illegals are criminals? Go on a hunt for them? Start locking them up. Hell, why don't we even start prisons just for illegals!

We can call those places "concentration camps!"

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Arson and a fight for survival by doing honest work are two very different things.

Comparing pulling people over for driving over the speed limit and pulling people over because they are Mexican is offensive.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

And yet, it's the granted force that we provide Law Enforcement which allows them to "racially profile." I mean, honestly, who is going to stop them?

The people, of course.

I would.

Since when have cops been allowed to racially profile, anyway?

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Yes, they are. Yet in both cases, what people are doing breaks the law. Simply because I do something with good intentions, does not mean that I am not breaking a law.

It is so. However, immigration reform could be aimed towards legalizing current illegal immigrants and embracing those who want to pursue citizenship, while eventually deporting the ones who don't want to be Americans.

It's too righteous, though.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Bradylama

Yet, if they wanted to be American citizens, why enter the country illegally? It's clear, then, that illegals don't want to be Americans. They just want to live in our country, benefit from our job markets, and not pay taxes.

That is not trued. By AOS(i485), only 50,000 people are allowed to come to the US every year.

It takes a hell of a long time to come here legally.

I know a lot of illegals are good people, and they only break the law because they need to to survive.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

What difference does that make? If they really wanted to be American citizens, they'd go through the process regardless of how long it took. But they don't and they seek to circumvent the system by demanding things of our government when they have shown blatant disrespect to that government's laws.

These people are criminals, nothing more, nothing less.

Ok dude. Whatever.

Blah blah. I am a pussy liberal I guess.

Originally Posted by Gumby

More excuses, gukarma. I don't care why they did it, the simple fact is they broke the law. If they want to be here they need to obey our laws or GTFO.

They do obey our laws... Ah fuck it.

How old are you?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I don't try to force my ideas on what you should do.

I have the inherent right to voice them in this country.

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because really I don't care what you think should happen and I am pretty sure the majory of people don't care either.

Well, you don't have to read them, or respond to them, do you? This is a discussion, and if you aren't comfortable with what I want to say, fuck off.

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So gukarma if you are so keen on helping these people why don't you go to Mexico and do it,

Because I don't want to. I want to defend their right to an honest life and hard work in the country that I live and love.

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I'm poor with no where to live and it will take years to save up for a house. I should be able to go break into one and live in it god dammit.

I'm a good person really. I just want to survive. So it's okay for me to break the law.

Having a house is a luxury. You could pay the rent, or lived in a homeless shelter. I've volunteered at a homeless shelter before, it ain't all that bad.

These illegal immigrants just want work and an honest life.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

No, what you want to do is give them a right that they have no claim to. Besides, nobody in this country has a right to "honest life and hard work." You have to find those things for yourself.

I think "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" entitle one in the very least to honest and HARD work, and in the best of cases easy work.

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Work, yes. If they were really wanting to be honest, however, they would go through the proper channels. Living in the country unregistered, and not paying taxes, is an undeniably dishonest way to live.

Calling that dishonest is twisting things. It's not legal. That's something else.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

So how is it honest work? How can somebody who circumvents established laws in order to work making an honest living?

It's honest work because it is done with the intent of a greater good and survival through something other than stealing or murdering.

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Which would mean something if the Declaration of Independance actually entitled us to anything other than our autonomy from Britain.

I am sure those words mean something to those who love this country.

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Originally Posted by TubeRacer

Going into someone else's country illegally, demanding free hand-outs while waving your own flag should be enough to get your ass kicked. These people are entitled to nothing, except free deportation services.

No one is demanding free hand-outs. All the illegal immigrants I know are just hard-working people who want to do nothing but cover the jobs that Americans don't want.

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Enough of the Mexican flag crap already. This is the United States of America..its not Mexico!!! These punk kids have alot of nerve getting their free education paid for by American taxpayers, yet they want to leave class and protest. I'm sure they'd get a fine education in Nuevo Laredo, why not just go there if fucking Mexico is so dear to their hearts.

Do you get pissed off when you see the Irish flag, too? I see those all the time here in Boston.

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It's already been said, but how can people that have illegally entered the country perform truly honest work?

So someone who committed one crime, arguably out of sheer necessity - for survival - is dishonest for LIFE?

I am sure all of these illegal immigrants would have come legally if the process took one or two years, maybe even three. 10-15 years is fucking crazy! These people would HAVE DIED before that.

It's like the process exists just to turn people AWAY from immigrating legally, or doing it at all!

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

But that's a fucking choice.

One is free to do whatever he wants in America - that's the beauty of the country. Hell, if a Mexican works in a mexican restaurant, shops in mexican establishments, and rarely ever comes in contact with Americans why would he NEED english?

What I am saying is you CANNOT force anyone to do what they don't want. If one doesn't want to learn English, more power to him/her.

If you are gonna say "BUT I CANT UNDERSTAND THEM AT THE SUPERMARKET!!," well, the supermarket's fault. They should hire people who speak English already for positions that need customer interaction, and only use immigrants who have not yet learned the language for cleaning or stocking.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by PUG1911

But is it better to have local jobs taken by illegals instead of outsourced? According to opinions I've read, illegals not only don't help the economy, but actively harm it.

I've recently heazrd in NPR that in some industries, such as that of masons, illegals make up more than 40% of the work force.

They also said that these are well-paying industries - 15-20 dollars an hour - and that the home-building market, which is responsible for 15%-18% of our GDP.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Just because one example doesn't hold it doesn't mean the whole argument is wrong.

What the hell.

That's like saying:

A: All medical doctors perform operations.
B: AHA! Psychiatrists don't! Therefore all doctors do not perform operations.

And where did I say Americans would not do them? You need training for these jobs, I am assuming the employers would rather go with illegals who know how to do their work rather than training an american from scratch.

It's the nature of capitalism.

FELIPE NO

To tell you the truth, I have illegal immigrant friends who do make $12 as painters. Not that far of a stretch.

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Which is exactly my point. The argument has been made (I never said you made it), that illegals are 'needed', and can be supported because the jobs they do are those that wouldn't be filled by citizens. I always assumed this was hogwash, and that it was just an excuse to undercut society's wages.

And you've provided the best example I've heard as to it being a bullshit excuse to undercut society's wages.

And it does discredit the argument in it's entirety because it goes to show that employers are hiring illegals instead of citizens in order to cheap out. And the justification that citizens 'will not' do the job are only true because the jobs have been targeted by the employers at those which will do it illegally.

It is indeed the nature of capitalism, but that doesn't mean that it's right. The minimum wages, etc. are in place for a reason, and this is just a way to get around those laws.

I have no fucking idea what point you are making, dude.

Most Americans will not clean shit for $6. Illegals will. Therefore illegals profit.

Capitalism makes it work. okthxbye.

It's not inherently bad, it's the nature of the beast.

How ya doing, buddy?

Like I said before, I am 18 and I make $12.00/hour, $20.00 sundays.

I live in a high-paying state, though.

I said Americans wouldn't do shitty jobs for minimum wage according to the Americans I know. Maybe I am wrong, after all.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by PUG1911

"You'd be amazed at what people will do when they are hungry."

Go into welfare?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Yeah, massachusetts is crazy ain't it.

Every lazy bum bastard from my high school ends up in welfare. They don't work much.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

What you people don't understand is that legal immigration is fucking impossible to manage. There are caps of like 30,000 people per year, and the waiting time is approximately 15 or so years.

That's fucking ridiculous. What's the point of following a law an unjust law? When it comes to making the decision: "should I go to the United States illegally, or starve?"

In the face of starvation laws are of little importance.

Furthermore, these people are not breaking laws of the United States of America right NOW. If they are employed, their employers are. They may have broken American laws in the past by illegally trespassing the borders, but that is not relevant.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by god

That is one of the most blatently false statements that I have heard/read in a while. My family is from Burkina Faso, and we immigrated to the US legally (as permanent residents with green cards) in 2000. This year we applied for citizenship. The waiting line is not 15 years as you seem to state with authority. We applied for and recieved our citizenship within the year. To state that illegal immigration is justified because of the backlog in the system is not only factually wrong, it breaks every legal tradition that the US has been following since its inception, namely the rule of law. You don't have the right to break any law on the books just because you don't agree with it. You follow it because it is the law. Period. Illegal immigrants broke the law, plain and simple, and should not be rewarded for their crime. I can't speak for other legal immigrants, but it makes me extremely angry to see these illegals walking around as if they're entitled to citizenship. Citizenship is a privelege, not a right, and for those who have not earned that right (by breaking the law to enter the country) to claim that they should be granted it is just absurd.

/rant

I am not talking about citizenship (for which the most common way to apply takes 7 years, a sponsor, and a couple of tests of proficiency of both the language and american history). I am talking about LEAVING your country in the most common of ways to enter the US - through and i485. There is a cap (of either 33,000 or 55,000 if you are a special worker) per year for that, and the current waiting time in line is beyond a decade.

Also, the point is that there is no sense in following a ridiculous law. If you did, kudos to you. Some people prefer justice, though.

Originally Posted by Lord Styphon

I fail to see why illegal immigrants breaking the laws of the United States by entering the country illegally is not relavent.

It is not relevant in a sense that criminalizes them, like night phoenix puts it. Do you want to make illegal immigrants felons?

I was speaking idiomatically.

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So gukarma, are you pro-criminal?

Ever heard of an ad-hominem?

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Although it's clear that you at least sort-of know what you're talking about, you're still oversimplifying the issue. If you can demonstrate a need for immigration: i.e. political refugee, you can get into the USA much quicker and easier, often bypassng the cap. Also the caps are not as simple as 33,000. There are limits per country, profession, and other factors.

Also, if you didn't realize, there is a limit of people we can have in this country. We can't just open our borders and let every person unhappy with their country into ours. That's highly impractical considering we have limited resources and land. These immigrants are moving always into urban centers since they rarely have skills useful outside of those. Our urban centers are already crowded, polluted, and underfinanced as fuck.

I'm of the opinion that the Mexicans should just fix their country instead of fleeing like a bunch of rats escaping a sinking ship. The ship is, after all, not sinking. Although NAFTA screwed the farmers, it gave shitloads of OTHER opportunities.

Our economy doesn't seem to be under incredible strain simply because of immigration; saying that would be making immigration an escape goat. We've had pretty fucking uncontrolable immigration up to now, and things seem to be doing well.

Think about it this way: if the immigrants that are here now were forced to pay taxes, and forced to legalize themselves, and there was much stricter border security, and a more lenient manner of immigration into the country NOW, everything would be perfect. That's what I am arguing for. Do you agree with me?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

That already exists; a person who hires someone without a soial security number or legal working permit can get fined heavily, as was established by national courts in 1986 (?) I believe.

Besides, fining people for going with the best labor is against the roots of capitalism, and people (especially businesses) will be against it even more heavily than people were against unions.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by god

Are you then advocating that every citizen have the right to obey or disobey the law as they see fit? If I think that justice involves me killing you, should the government turn a blind eye? If you kill my brother, should I have the right to kill you in retaliation? A system of vigilante justice would never work. That's why we have the rule of law in America.

There is a precedent in the US for disobeying unfair and unrealistic laws.

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Yes I do. They broke a law. They are criminals. They should not have the same rights, priveleges, and access to social services that legal immigrants like me have.

The fact that I immigrated to the US before becoming a citizen disproves your point. My point is that from my personal experience, there isn't a prohibitive barrier to coming to this country legally. It's the fact that Mexico is both a poor country and a neighbor to the US that allows Mexican citizens to feel that they have the right to enter the country for their own benefit whilst undocumented. This debate is not an anti-immigrant one; it's an anti illegal immigration movement. People seem to lose that perspective in the heat of the debate.

I came to the country legally, and it took a hell of a long time and a hell of a lot of money. Most of the people I have met went through the same problem.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by god

I guess that that's where a guest worker program fits in this debate. I'm not against people coming to this country to work, I'm against them doing it undocumented. It is a huge security risk to have a population of 10-12 million people that the government has absolutely no clue about. Many of them might actually be hard-working people trying to better their lives (albeit illegally) but what about the rest? We need a system of keeping tabs on them that doesn't involve giving them citizenship at any point, since they're criminals and we don't really want to be making citizens out of people with criminal records. That starts with a more secure border first, and then a guest worker program.

Yes, that makes a lot of sense. However, this is what I have been arguing for since the beggining, and your airs were much more antagonistic a few posts ago. Change your mind?

Jam it back in, in the dark.