The Immigration Protests

If anybody actually thinks that illegal immigration is somehow, against all common sense and logic, helping the US economy, I urge you to take a look at this:

http://www.cairco.org/econ/econ.html

Some of the quotes from this article:

Quote:

The total K-12 school expenditure for illegal immigrants costs the states $7.4 billion annually—enough to buy a computer for every junior high student nationwide.

Quote:

$60 billion dollars are earned by illegal aliens in the U.S. each year. One of Mexico's largest revenue streams (after exports and oil sales) consists of money sent home by legal immigrants and illegal aliens working in the U.S. Economists say this will help Mexico reduce its $17.8 billion defecit and may bolster the peso.

Quote:

FAIR research suggests that "between 40 and 50 percent of wage-loss among low-skilled Americans is due to the immigration of low-skilled workers. Some native workers lose not just wages but their jobs through immigrant competition. An estimated 1,880,000 American workers are displaced from their jobs every year by immigration; the cost for providing welfare and assistance to these Americans is over $15 billion a year." The National Research Council, part of the National Academy of Sciences, found in 1997 that the average immigrant without a high school education imposes a net fiscal burden on public coffers of $89,000 during the course of his or her lifetime. The average immigrant with only a high school education creates a lifetime fiscal burden of $31,000.

Quote:

Illegal aliens have cost billions of taxpayer-funded dollars for medical services. Dozens of hospitals in Texas, New Mexico Arizona, and California, have been forced to close or face bankruptcy because of federally-mandated programs requiring free emergency room services to illegal aliens. Taxpayers pay half-a-billion dollars per year incarcerating illegal alien criminals.

Quote:

Immigration is a net drain on the economy; corporate interests reap the benefits of cheap labor, while taxpayers pay the infrastructural cost. FAIR research shows "the net annual cost of immigration has been estimated at between $67 and $87 billion a year. The National Academy of Sciences found that the net fiscal drain on American taxpayers is between $166 and $226 a year per native household. Even studies claiming some modest overall gain for the economy from immigration ($1 to $10 billion a year) have found that it is outweighed by the fiscal cost ($15 to $20 billion a year) to native taxpayers."

Quote:

Based on Census Bureau data, the study estimates that households headed by illegal aliens used $10 billion more in government services than they paid in taxes in 2002. These figures are only for the federal government; costs at the state and local level are also likely to be significant. The study also finds that if illegals were given amnesty, the fiscal deficit at the federal level would grow to nearly $29 billion.

We have existing laws that need to be followed. Right now what is happening is that we are letting illegal immigrants undermine the law. Apart from being a massive security risk, we start ignoring our borders...well our political borders define the extent of our country. That's pretty important, I'd say.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Since Duo seems to have completely missed this rather large post, I'll post it once again in the hopes that he will catch it.

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If anybody actually thinks that illegal immigration is somehow, against all common sense and logic, helping the US economy, I urge you to take a look at this:

http://www.cairco.org/econ/econ.html

Some of the quotes from this article:

Quote:

The total K-12 school expenditure for illegal immigrants costs the states $7.4 billion annually—enough to buy a computer for every junior high student nationwide.

Quote:

$60 billion dollars are earned by illegal aliens in the U.S. each year. One of Mexico's largest revenue streams (after exports and oil sales) consists of money sent home by legal immigrants and illegal aliens working in the U.S. Economists say this will help Mexico reduce its $17.8 billion defecit and may bolster the peso.

Quote:

FAIR research suggests that "between 40 and 50 percent of wage-loss among low-skilled Americans is due to the immigration of low-skilled workers. Some native workers lose not just wages but their jobs through immigrant competition. An estimated 1,880,000 American workers are displaced from their jobs every year by immigration; the cost for providing welfare and assistance to these Americans is over $15 billion a year." The National Research Council, part of the National Academy of Sciences, found in 1997 that the average immigrant without a high school education imposes a net fiscal burden on public coffers of $89,000 during the course of his or her lifetime. The average immigrant with only a high school education creates a lifetime fiscal burden of $31,000.

Quote:

Illegal aliens have cost billions of taxpayer-funded dollars for medical services. Dozens of hospitals in Texas, New Mexico Arizona, and California, have been forced to close or face bankruptcy because of federally-mandated programs requiring free emergency room services to illegal aliens. Taxpayers pay half-a-billion dollars per year incarcerating illegal alien criminals.

Quote:

Immigration is a net drain on the economy; corporate interests reap the benefits of cheap labor, while taxpayers pay the infrastructural cost. FAIR research shows "the net annual cost of immigration has been estimated at between $67 and $87 billion a year. The National Academy of Sciences found that the net fiscal drain on American taxpayers is between $166 and $226 a year per native household. Even studies claiming some modest overall gain for the economy from immigration ($1 to $10 billion a year) have found that it is outweighed by the fiscal cost ($15 to $20 billion a year) to native taxpayers."

Quote:

Based on Census Bureau data, the study estimates that households headed by illegal aliens used $10 billion more in government services than they paid in taxes in 2002. These figures are only for the federal government; costs at the state and local level are also likely to be significant. The study also finds that if illegals were given amnesty, the fiscal deficit at the federal level would grow to nearly $29 billion.

We have existing laws that need to be followed. Right now what is happening is that we are letting illegal immigrants undermine the law. Apart from being a massive security risk, we start ignoring our borders...well our political borders define the extent of our country. That's pretty important, I'd say.

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Originally Posted by Duo

Regardless, we took the land they inhabited. We didn't ask permission, we didn't come in peace. Whether or not there was some unifying legal body, it makes no difference to me.

So what you are saying is that its OK for them to break the law, because we did something similar several hundred years ago? When there weren't any immigration laws?

Someone killed my mother so I guess that makes it ok for me to kill them? Because they've broken the law?

You are an utter paradox.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Igod82

Dude your assuming that the 7.4 billion spent would be spent to do something Right - Where in all reality if it wasnt being wasted as is, it would end up in some wealthy guys bank account. I Agree these protests are stupid and if your not legal u should be happy you havent been caught and go about your buisness, Not throw it in the face of the government. Dark link i dont cee a problem with the peso going up in value. Why is it bad to help Mexico improve its situation, it is one of our nearest neighboors. And the porblem with low skilled work is not illegal immigrants, Its unfair pay scales. In a world where a VP works 2 days a week and flies to his job 300 miles away for those two days of work and makes 300 times the average employee, There is the problem not illegal immagrants.

It's fine to help Mexico improve their standard of living.

Through LEGAL means.

Stop trying to offshift the problem to something else. This thread is about the problem of illegal immigration, and saying: "Well, this is ALSO a problem." isn't going to make illegal immigration any less of an issue.

One problem at a time .

Double Post:
Those stats, at least from someone of my perspective, only increase my desire to get illegal immigrants out of the country. Those stats are basically saying "Illegal Immigrants only cost X amount of money, it isn't THAT bad."

Well, saying

Quote:

Immigrant children spent or cost $270 a year, compared to $1,059 for native-born children.

Just makes me think thats $270 too much. It's still a drain on our health care system that shouldn't be there. If they are LEGAL immigrants, than great.

The only section I'm really going to respond to other than what I said about all of them in general is about National Security, because that is just BS.

Quote:

None of the 9/11 terrorists entered the country via the US/Mexico border. In fact, the US is most vulnerable at its ports of entry, including ship ports, airports, and land ports. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).

That literally makes no difference whatsoever. The security risk is still THERE and STILL very big. Just because it isn't as big of a problem doesn't make it OK to ignore it.

Quote:

It is not easy to immigrate to the US legally as it often takes decades before an individual can obtain many kinds of legal immigrant visas. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).

Oh boo, hoo. Cry me up a storm. It's too hard, so you are just going to do it illegally? That does NOT make it OK. Petition to get the system changed or something, that doesn't give you an excuse to break the law. We have immigration quotas for a reason, mainly so our economy doesn't get wrecked.

Quote:

Working with Mexico is central to the future of controlling the US border. Through cooperation with Mexico, the US will be able to isolate criminals, publicize rules, and identify forms of Mexican identification. (Peter Laufer, former NBC new correspondent).

That would be great, except Mexico has no desire to, and has expressed no desire to help control the flood of illegal immigrants coming into this country. Behind oil, money coming from illegal immigrants is Mexico's largest form of income. Meaning - that is money NOT going back into the US economy.

Quote:

Enhanced border enforcement only increases the number of deaths of men, women, and children at the border annually. Areas with heavy border security see up to 100 additional deaths a year. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).

This might seem cold...but I really don't care. At all. These people are trying to break the law. That's a risk they are going to have to take. This entire thing seems to ignore the fact that these are CRIMINALS.

Quote:

While heavy border does not stop the volume of unauthorized border crossing, it does increase the costs and risks of coming to the US, including death, injury, and the use of smugglers. It also reduces the number of back and forth trips, forcing undocumented immigrants to stay longer. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).

Again, SO WHAT. And I am having a VERY hard time believing that more border security doesn't drop unauthorized border crossings at all.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Igod82

True u are right this is about illegal immigrants protesting. And i do not think they should have done that, it was stupid. I actually have some friends here that are from El Salvador ( on Work Visas ) that also agree that it was stupid. Thing that i find odd though is that alot of these Salvadoreans came illegally then when they got here they where able to obtain work visas because of the situation in El Salvador. Im curious y they could not have obtained the visa prior to coming here to the USA.

I agree with you, but anticipating some members responses about how it is their constitutional right to protest:

They are illegal immigrants. ILLEGAL. They don't have that kind of constitutional protection.

Your El Salvador friends are kind of a weird situation...while they did come here illegally...I for one am VERY glad they decided to go through legal means to stay here, and get work visas. It shows that there are people of integrity left here .

I don't know about getting visas back in El Salvador. There may have been some extenuating circumstance that prevented them from doing so. That doesn't make what they did RIGHT, but that does explain why they would come here illegally and then get work visas to stay here legally.

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Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

That's the most ignorant statement, ever. Even with all of the illegal immigration into our country, we still end up with a net economic benefit.

I'm sorry, but you appear to have a VERY poor understanding of economics.

http://www.cairco.org/econ/econ.html

Quote:

Immigration is a net drain on the economy; corporate interests reap the benefits of cheap labor, while taxpayers pay the infrastructural cost. FAIR research shows "the net annual cost of immigration has been estimated at between $67 and $87 billion a year. The National Academy of Sciences found that the net fiscal drain on American taxpayers is between $166 and $226 a year per native household. Even studies claiming some modest overall gain for the economy from immigration ($1 to $10 billion a year) have found that it is outweighed by the fiscal cost ($15 to $20 billion a year) to native taxpayers."

Quote:

Back during the era of Western expansion and "Manifest Destiny" bullshit, hundreds of thousands of immigrants came here from all over the world East Asia, Europe, without documentation. They worked in silver, gold, iron, copper and coal mines, built our transcontinental railroad system, grew our crops and made our textile goods.

Our economy has always been an immigrant economy. I don't believe you idiots can't see that. Americans have gone through every conceivable ethnicity from Blacks in slavery growing cotton to Irish working in sub-human conditions in various mills from lumber to fabrics.

I'm not going to say anything further if you can't see the obvious differences between not only LEGAL and ILLEGAL immigration, but the fact that our economy is radically different than it was, oh, say 150 years ago?

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Stop making excuses for them. Even if you are somehow able to twist around the facts enough in your own mind and actually think they are benefiting our economy as a whole, you should know enough to know that it isn't an excuse to break the law. If I have a murderer going around killing everyone with an IQ under 80, then I guess we should just let him, because he's getting rid of the idiots, right? He's doing something beneficial. Yeah, sorry, you lose.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by LeHah

While you and I are on the same side of the fence on this issue - you make a really shitty arguement and make all of us who are against illegal immigrants look bad.

Can you make a point without quoting someone else or linking us to another site? Is there an original thought in your head? Quoting something from the internet doesn't make you right at all - its a hollow response, like a robot unable to think outside its programming.

Please - please - use your own words. And I don't mean just take a quote and change stuff around. Come up with something yourself.

Fuck off, I didn't ask for your opinion. I added some of my own words in there, and quoted a source. I suppose you think pretty words and a bunch of bullshit beats actually having factual sources to back up what you are saying. I said what I wanted to about that source posts back, I'm not about to repeat myself because Colonel Asshole wants to bitch about it. Sometimes simple facts speak more for themselves than anything I could say about them regardless. So I make one post where I mostly quote facts, whoop-de-fucking do.

But apparantly it looks like its OK for Duo to do exactly that.

I'm done in here. I've said all I'm going to say about the subject in the posts I've made before.

They've broken the law, plain and simple, get them the fuck out of here.

EDIT -> I'll add one thing more. And I won't quote any sources, as per your preference. Allowing illegals to stay in this country or granting them amnesty is going to weaken our laws. Its undermining the US constitution and weakening what it means to actually be a sovereign nation. It's only going to encourage more people to come here because they believe our politicians are too weak to do anything about it. And from what I've seen, I agree.

Mostly I'm concerned about this from a national security standpoint. As I believe Duo stated before, our main security risks are our ports. However, that doesn't mean we should just ignore the borders.

I also don't subscribe to the philosophy that they are just doing jobs Americans won't do. There isn't ANY job Americans won't do, so long as they can afford basic life necessities. And if you're a teenager, you don't even need to worry about that.

The best way to solve illegal immigration is to start with the companies hiring illegal immigrants. To some extent we have done a little bit in that area, but nowhere near enough. It's simple - if illegals can't get jobs here, they'll stop coming.

I'm all for immigration. As long as its done through legal means and stays within the immigration quotas we have set.

Whether they actually help our economy or not is pointless and is not the issue at hand. The fact of the matter is, they have broken the law. Something needs to be done in reprimand. If we are just going to change our laws because we are too cowardly to do anything about it, we may as well not have them, because they don't mean anything. Laws are just pretty words without anybody backing them up.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Laws exist for a reason, to keep order in society. You don't have laws, you have anarchy. If everyone just starts undermining the law and we let them, we don't have a country anymore. We have a craphole.

You can change laws, but through LEGAL means. If you don't like the Patriot Act, that doesn't exempt you from having to follow the laws it outlines. Write a letter to your congressman, start a coalition to get the law changed, whatever.

And yes, Rosa Parks broke the law, plain and simple. Did she have a reason to make a stand? Sure. Did it make a difference? Sure. That doesn't mean she wasn't a criminal for doing so. Was she right? I believe so. But you can't just start saying that its OK whenever anyone breaks the law because of "such and such" a situation. There are better ways of doing things.

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Originally Posted by Devo

You missed Duo's point entirely, certain laws are/were unconstutional and it takes people to rebel against them before this fact is even debated by the government.

Aight, gg, you caught me there. If something really truly is unconstitutional, as was the discrimination against African Americans, something radical like that truly does need to be done to make a change.

But I'd hardly catagorize illegal immigration as being lawful under the US constitution.

Oh and for the record -> I believe most of the Patriot Act is constitutional (although some provisions clearly are not), although I can hardly say I like any of it.

EDIT-> Regardless, this situation hardly mirrors what African Americans went through in the 40s & 50s. They were legal US citizens being denied the civil rights that every other American was given. Illegal immigrants are breaking the law by simply being here. This isn't really a race issue - its a legal issue.

Double Post:

Originally Posted by Devo

Yeah they're breaking the law but it's funny how when people ask you to provide further explanation you just link a website or post a quote. It isn't a big deal to ask for you to write a post in your own words. Duo did just that, so what's your point?

Nobody asked me to provide further explanation. I posted those facts from that website just to provide further information to anyone reading this thread.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Devo

I don't see how saying "it's wrong because it's illegal" gets you anywhere. Unless of course you actually explain why it should stay illegal or why it's illegal to begin with.

I wasn't aware that something as basic as that required any more explanation. Umm...its illegal because there are laws defining it as illegal? Shit, I don't know.

Quote:

Then you post links/quotes which Duo clearly refutes. That's providing false information.

I've yet to see this. Thats a factual study done by a real-life institute. Unless for some reason you can find proof that the study was faked/biased, I see no reason to believe its false information.

This is the only refute I can possibly find after my first post in here, and I can hardly call this a challenge:

Quote:

I've found sources on USATODAY, The New York times and BBCWorld that site sources claiming a $10~$30 billion NET GAIN. NET not Gross. This is including the costs of providing medical care, education and other public services versus the drop in labor costs, leading to increased profit margins for publically traded corporations and small-businesses, as well as maintaining high-availability and low-cost of commodities.

In retrospect, I gave a link to my source.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by russ

Your reading comprehension is questionable at best. She is suggesting that instead of taking a law at face value, simply because it is in place, you instead analyze the law, why it is in place, and if it is necessary in contemporary society.

That's already been gone over several times in this thread. I see no need to repeat what other people have already said, or indeed, what I have already said in earlier posts. Apparantly some people don't understand something until its been beat into them through repetition.

Immigration quotas are in place to help stablize our economy. You can't possibly expect the US economy to handle a massive influx of immigrants all at once. It's necessary to keep documentation on US citizens & residents for obvious reasons.

The law is in place, and it is necessary. If the law needs to be changed because you don't feel it is right, then do it through legal means. But don't be surprised when the majority thinks otherwise. If it is clearly unconstitutional as it was with the civil rights movement, then perhaps breaking the law is called for to make a change. I can't find any place on the US Constitution that would even begin to give provisions for "illegal" immigration.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

See, the main downfall with regulating immigration is the same as with anti-drug laws: enforcement. Yeah, they catch a few, but it's a small percentage compared to the number that make it through.

A fence/wall really wouldn't cost that much. And it WOULD help stem the flow.

Quote:

It would cost federal, state and municipal governments much more money to commit enough bodies and resources to haulting illegal immigration than it would be to simply let it happen.

Why? They got here on their own, they can figure out how to get back on their own. Seeing as they have jobs here and have gotten a bit of cash, I don't see why they can't pay for their OWN transportation back. The enforcement? Yeah, I'm pretty sure that would have an initial cost that might look a bit ugly. It wouldn't take long for the benefits to show up. Well, at least according the FAIR study I linked to earlier.

Quote:

Furthermore, if we were to attempt to deport every illegal immigrant living in the United States currently, it'd have every government law-enforcement agent, soldier, guardsman, social worker working 'round the clock for god only knows how long. Then, you'd have to figure the costs of physically deporting them. What're you going to do, load them on rafts and shove them out into the middle of the Pacific, the Atlantic, the Mexican Gulf? Throw them over "the fence"? That's something on the order of 22 million people.

You obviously can't do something like this all at once. And I'm not denying the fact that you obviously couldn't boot every illegal immigrant out. With 11 million people (22?) thats literally impossible. But you have to start somewhere. And it might take time. Nothing can be fixed instantly.

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I'm not saying that there is any chance in the world that we could fix this problem 100%. That's way too optimistic and unrealistic. In today's world though, fixing a problem partway is an amazing accomplishment in and of itself, and it will show some benefits.

Back with what you posted earlier: Those stats seemed more to focus on how "little" illegal immigrants are draining...but the point is, that collectively, that is a drain that doesn't need to exist. And I'll admit, its far less than what I was imagining.

If illegals are kicked out, those jobs WILL be filled. There are a lot of people who are willing to work minimum wage jobs. And, as we are moving towards a more service-oriented economy, a lot of those jobs are disappearing regardless. Would I pick lettuce all summer for minumum wage? Sure, if I couldn't find anything better. It's a job, its outside & its manual labor, which despite what you might think, I really enjoy . I'm not sure why I'm going to college and getting a degree thats going to get me a desk job, lol. Where I live, a popular job during the summer is detassling corn, which is an absolutely miserable job. Doesn't pay very much over minimum wage, and there's always people to fill every spot available. I've never done it because I'm lucky enough to have grandparents to hire me for farmwork every summer . That doesn't involve detassling corn =/.

I guess my point in saying that is that yes, even miserable jobs like picking lettuce would be filled. You might have to pay a few extra cents for your lettuce being that illegal immigrants working for cash that amounts to less than minimum wage were the ones doing the picking, but I don't think thats really a terrible cost to pay.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

I forget where, but I had read that the illegal immigrant population was rapidly approaching 22 million, nationwide, I think 11 million is the number of illegals in the workforce at any given time. Something on the order of half-a-million new immigrants arrive each year. You figure a good percentage of those are illegal, and multiply that by like 20 years and it figures.

Aight, thats where I heard the 11 million then. 22 sounded familiar when you said it, so yeah, its probably the total illegal immigrant population .

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Originally Posted by LeHah

Heres a good way to fix the immigration situation - if they want to come here illegally, round them up and enlist them for a 5 year term overseas. Educated them, train them and then turn them loose in Iraq for a tour or two. When they come back, they're citizens.

Now there is something I can agree with. A sane view to fix the problem of illegal immigrants already in this country.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by LeHah

Oh god, if he's agree with me, I must be way off base.

Look, if all you are going to do is be a complete dick and not take this seriously, then tell me now.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by LeHah

I take the subject seriously.

I don't think anyone who has a working synapse in their brain can take *you* seriously.

I'll take that as an affirmative.

I was under the opinion that all the internet's immature assholes had congregated in CS:S, but I've been proved wrong.

Have a nice day.

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Originally Posted by LeHah

You were "under the opinion"? I take it english is your second language, because that... doesn't make a lick of sense.

That aside, I'm not sure if every asshole on the internet is at this CS:S place. I mean, I'm here, you're here. Shit, you should be at that place before me given that you improperly assumed every asshole was there and even then got the goddamned setence structure wrong.

Tell me - are you typing this during study hall? You sound like a 14 year old with a Ramones t-shirt and a spiked wristband.

Replace 'under' with 'of'. You weren't so fucking stupid that you couldn't understand it. Quite frankly, I'm shocked.

And in the process of flaming, it might be a good idea to actually know what the fuck you are flaming the guy about. Sentence structure wasn't screwed up, I believe the word you were looking for there was VOCABULARY.

By the way: CS:S - Counter Strike: Source.

I don't have a 'study hall.' I'm in college.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by LeHah

And what a fine job your doing with your parent's money.

Actually, I'm paying for nearly all of it via loans & my own money. Money I've earned at a JOB although I don't expect you to know that kind of experience, being that you don't cross the IQ barrier to attain one.

But thank you.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Wow...holy crap. I'm all for tightening up the borders and getting as much deportation done as possible, but genocide? That's just cru-zazy, man.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Hmm, I'm encountering difficulty deciding on how I want to respond to this. I'll make it multiple choice.

A) What goes around, comes around.
B) Oh, you mean like we did with the Natives?
C) European colonization is a bitch, isn't it?
D) I'm sure the Inca, Mayans, Iroquoi, Blackfoot, Kumeyaay, Swazi, Zulu, Tasmanians and countless other indeginous peoples would agree with you.
E) Your mom.

Whichever sounds pithy to you.

You keep spouting off this exact same reason as why illegal immigration should be okay, yet it makes no logical sense. What you are trying to say is that since we moved into what became the United States with no immigration laws whatsoever, and destroyed the natives here (with disease, our superior technology wouldn't have done it alone), that it should just be ok for them to walk all over us. We have a SOVEREIGN NATION now with borders to protect.

You seem to have this "eye for an eye" mentality that just DOES NOT WORK in the modern world, even ignoring the fact that this isn't even the same situation happening. We are talking about 200+ years later with an established country. Get your mind up to the present. I highly doubt you would be willing to apply this "eye for an eye" deal to any other situation, even one where it would actually apply. Although maybe I'm just reading you wrong.

Free immigration would wreck havok on any country's economy. What people are largely ignoring in this debate is the fact that EVERY country has immigration laws, but all of the sudden the USA is the big bad wolf when we want to try to do something about the lack of enforcement of those existing immigration laws.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Duo, none of what you said makes any difference at all. In fact, it doesn't have any relevance to this topic at all. Get your mind out of the past, please. We live in a completely different world with completely different requirements and needs than 200+ years ago. The very idea that we should just let them come in because we destroyed the native american population 250-some years ago is preposterous and utterly ridiculous. Although I'm pretty sure congress would like it, considering some of the BS they've gone with in the past.

Night Phoenix summed up what your point is coming across as quite well.

Originally Posted by Night Phoenix

In short: Nothing America does outside of capitulating to anything and everything is right. If America acts in its own interests in any way, it is a tyrannical, empirical state that must be stopped at all costs.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?