Flying? PLEASE TURN CELLPHONE OFF

Ok... I don't fucking understand why it is so damned hard. When you're on an airplane (you know, those things that fly around in the sky), turn off your goddamned fucking cell phone. You know that buzzing you get when you put your phone next to a speaker? Well, it affects avionics too. Don't believe me? This is from a Turkish Airlines First Office - I'll explain the acronyms if so desired. (Autopilot A and B are two seperate systems for redundancy)

Quote:

Flight TK 459 from ADA-IST - Captain's leg for flight.

The weather at ADA was CAVOK we were using runway 5 for departure and we got to rolling, all systems normal and take off thrust set itself just fine on autothrottle....

then after my V1 call and rotate we took to the air and everything was good too, then the drama starts...

at 400 AGL we are required to select a ROLL mode, i selected Heading for the captain, as we were cleared on runway heading, however it didn't engage, the mcp didn't light up or the FMA or the F/D bars...nothing....so i tried putting on LNAV, same thing.....we continued manual...then at 1000 i tried to engage the A autopilot...that did nothing...B, that did nothing...then at 1500 I tried to reduce to climb power by pressing the N1 button...nothing, tried changing the MCP speed, didn't budge....at this point departure cleared us to MUT vor after 3000, so the captain was flying full manual turning the a/c while the F/D were telling him to continue his heading, started getting confusing....

then passing 7600 feet while climbing to level 260, we asked the Chief F/A to do a cell phone check in the back...she came back with no results....we were slightly shocked....then we were able to put in autopilot A but when it engaged, the VNAV AND LNAV came on all by them selves and the plane dove downwards a little, and then autopilot kicked off.....she started going insane, level change came on by itself, and it pulled the speed back to 171 knots with the flaps up while we were doing 284 so she started climbing at 4500 feet per min, im sure people noticed at the back that something was kinda wrong....i didn't enjoy it....then both EADI flight directors disappeared completely, and the FMA locked on VNAV and LNAV, and the aircraft was telling us to turn in a completely useless direction, the captain kept her in manual, now passing 22,000 feet we were utterly confused, the checklist had nothing, we couldnt use our FMS LNAV and the aircraft was being crazy, then several seconds later i was cross checking the 3 airspeed indicators like MAD because i had no idea which FCC was engaged versus which was we selected and what the damn plane would command us to do....i tried autopilot A again (to reduce the workload so we could problem solve together) it engaged! however, 10 seconds later it kicked off...because...and im glad this didn't happen in IMC...the Captain's EADI flight director was asking for a 20 degree nose dive, and my EADI F/D was commanding a 20 degree nose UP attitude....we just looked at each other....., the altitude warning horn went off at random intervals...and the stress level was a lil higher than usual because we know VERY well flying the -400 that someone's friggin cell phone is on back there, that's the ONLY thing in almost 10 years of TK history that messes up the MCP panel, coming from experienced captains...

so the pre recorded cell phone announcement was played FOUR times, and nothing, then we asked each one of our cabin staff to basically violate people and find the phones.....

guess what.....5 cell phones were on, 2 were text messaging, and one person was playing music and looking for a cell phone tower at altitude to see if it kicked in or not....pax were furious, because we were heading to CAT II airport at the time and we needed these damn instruments for the approach into IST....

once those 5 cell phones were switched off....everything came back to normal, both autopilots came on when we selected each one, all F/D indications came back, the FMS was usuable and nothing went wrong again....

And the stupidity (that's what it is, if you've got your cellphone on during a flight, you're fucking stupid, period.) is worldwide, I've been on flights in North America and Western Europe where cabin crew have had to make multiple announcements for pax to turn off thier cellphones... You think they do it just because they're bored and want to fuck with the passengers? If we wanted to do that, we'll give you some "turbulence" it's a hell of a lot more fun.

So yeah... If you're sitting next to me and I see you turn your cellphone on in flight, I'm going to punch you. No more nice cabin calls asking passengers to kindly turn off the phone, I'm going to come back there and kick your stupid fucking ass. You have no right to carelessly endanger my life, or the lives of the other passengers around you asshole.

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Shin, first of all, I've never flown on Turkish Airlines myself, but I have experienced problems caused by cell phone interference both as a member of the flight crew (pilot) and as a passenger. I'll give you an example of one of my experiences.

I was on a flight into Kitchener/Waterloo Regional (CYKF), cleared to intercept the localizer (lateral guidance) for the ILS (instrument landing system), I was previously being directed solely by Radar Vectors, being so close to Toronto-Pearson and all, that I didn't notice any problems with the instruments, and they had all previously ground and air checked OK for IFR (Instrument Flight Rules) flight.

I intercepted the localizer as my CDI (Course Deviation Indicator) began to swing in, showing me getting closer (when the CDI starts to move, you are 2.5 degrees off the localizer) to the localizer centerline. I intercepted properly, and let the autopilot take control of maintaining wind correction and tracking the centreline.

I took a quick glance at the GPS, which is actually quite a nice tool for the aircraft I was flying in, most commercial aircraft (including the heavies such as 747s, 767s, and 757s, and older airbusses) still lack an onboard GPS system, rather they rely on INS and IRS installations. (Inertial Navigation/Reference System). INS/IRS relies on integration of data from accelerometers and gyroscopes to proide attitude, heading, and navigation information. So yeah, I looked at the GPS and noticed that I was about 15 degrees off course, but both CDIs (NAV 1 and 2) said I was centred on the localizer. Odd I thought, so I advised ATC, and was cleared to re-intercept the localizer. No joy, the CDIs seemed to centre randomly, we tried everything, resetting them, re-tuning, etc, nothing worked. Just when we were trying to figure that out - the autopilot suddenly commanded approximatly 30 degrees nose down, giving us about 6000feet/min descent - that's a problem when you're only 3000' above ground, and 2000' from obsticals. Like the Turkish FO said, we went back to manual control, and my FO tried to figure out what the hell was going on. We eventually found out that he had left his cell phone on in his flight bag in the back seat - as soon as it was turned off, everything came back to normal, we were able to shoot the approach and land safely.

Some quick facts - on an ILS CAT I (what I was shooting that day) approach, you can descend to 200' above ground without any visual reference to the ground, if the autopilot had commanded the 30deg pitch down at that altitude, there would have been 2 seconds to react before we became a pile of molten metal on the ground - and because autopilot uses trim/stab trim to fly the aircraft, it may have been completly unrecoverable at that altitude.

An ILS CAT II approach (from the Turkish Airlines quote), has a descision height of 50' above ground. No visual contact until you're 50' above the ground - I sure wouldn't even want to risk anything fucking with my instruments then, when there the distance to the ground is less then my wingspan.

Honestly, what the hell is so important that you need to keep your cell phone turned on during flights - I mean come on, the longest flights are only 14 or so hours long, take a break from the damned phone.

Don't get me started about the absolute stupidity of bringing loaded firearms into the cabin either.

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Originally Posted by surasshu

The way I understand it, if the wires that send the data from outside the plane to the meters aren't isolated properly, mobile phone or other microwave devices can mess with the transmitted data, messing up the readings. Electronic devices would also be a problem I guess, but you can't really expect people to switch all electronic devices off.

However, planes are tested a lot (I think once a week? Not sure on that one, but it's a lot), and obviously if they don't pass the tests, they can't fly.

If you're in a plane whose meters mess up because mobiles are switched on, that plane should not have been cleared for flight. Then again I certainly wouldn't put it past Turkish Airlines to fly with planes that haven't been isolated properly. =D

First of all, adding insulation to existing wiring (remember, MILES or wiring inside a modern airliner), would add ALOT of weight, more weight means less fuel, decreasing range. Also more airframe weight would decrease the available payload, meaning that the operator would loose more money, so I don't see it happenening anytime soon.

And FYI, Airplanes are usually inspected based on operating hours (air time), and/or cycles (takeoff and landings). To retrofit every aircraft in service would be a multi-million (read hundreds of millions) dollar operation.

Originally Posted by surasshu

I do think it's a good idea to switch off mobiles though. If only because if I was on a 12 hour flight to LA, and that flight was punctuated with "HELLO I CAN'T HEAR YOU I'M ON A PLANE" calls, I would use one of those "safe" plastic breakfast sporks to take an eye out.

EDIT: Here's why the FCC banned it in the first place: "this ban was put in place because of potential interference to wireless networks on the ground". Then again, the FAA adds to that "potential interference to the aircraft’s navigation and communication systems".

And I have personal experience with cell phones affecting navigational performace, it could have killed me and the others on board.

Originally Posted by Merv Burger

There's actually no definite reason why they do it, actually.

I tell my passengers definitivly that if they turn on a cell phone (I don't know about other electronic devices), then there is a good chance that it will fuck with the systems on board - because it has happened to me before.

Originally Posted by Merv Burger

There has been no definitive study to link cellphones (or any other electronic device,) to avionic interference. The best that's been shown is that it's marginally possible that they could interfere, but remember, the key word here is "marginal."

Did you read my second post at all? I'd hardly call that marginal interference, I wasn't even close to being lined up with the runway, if I didn't have GPS, and ATC wasn't paying too much attention (which happens ALOT), I could have hit an obstical. Airplanes arn't like cars bud - you can't just stop and pull over and figure things out. If something is wrong, then it will kill you if you don't treat it with respect.

Originally Posted by Merv Burger

I think it's entirely bullshit, the claims they make. If someone's cellphone in their pocket can "interfere" with their equipment, well, uh, what about all the radio waves of all different frequencies flying about outside the aircraft? There's a lot more interference outside of the aircraft than on the inside.

As I mentioned before, I have personally had a cell phone fuck with my avionics while in flight - no other electronic device has done that. I think the major problem is that the cell phone is in such close proximity to electrical wires - you don't get interference on your speaker/CRT monitor from all the other frequencies, yet as soon as you're about to get a phone call, you get the all-too-well-known interference from the phone making the connection.

Originally Posted by Merv Burger

In the end, there's more evidence showing that it's just for various companies to save money than it is about anyone's safety.

Well this is how the world has always worked - money makes the world go around.

So I just want to get this straight - just because you have no absolute proof,or personal experience like I have, you won't turn off your cell phone on an aircraft, because you don't think there is any basis behind that rule... Pretty fucking stupid if you ask me. You can't honestly believe that you are that all-fucking-knowing that you will know that your phone will have absolutly zero effect on the avionics.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Something happed that made me think of this thread - I'm going through my briefing, and someone's phone rings - I stop the breifing, and ask the gentleman to turn the phone off, "Hold on, this is important - it'll just be a second."

Grr... I don't personally care if it's going to be a second, a minute, or fourty fucking hours - turn the goddamned phone off before you get to the plane, as the announcement says - It's not my personal rule, but it's a good fucking idea. There's tons of things that can happen when you are walking towards the fucking plane, walking off the dock into the water (seen it happen), walking into a spinning propeller (just about seen that happen), trip and fall and get hurt (seen that happen), etc... Just take a break from the phone.

And it's not just for interference - the last thing we need for passengers is to be distracted during an emergency because of thier phones - jesus people, don't try to call someone from inside of a plane when it has crashed - get the fuck out already - I don't want to drag your sorry ass out of the plane because you are on the phone.

Also - it's the law. Not just my law, not just the companies law, but federal, you-go-to-jail law. Jesus people, come the fuck on.

How ya doing, buddy?