The Middle East spirals out of control!

Originally Posted by Rock

o rly?

The fact is also that Israeli airstrikes have mostly hit civillians since the beginning of this war.

They may be civilian sites but they do have military value. They are selecting targets that are taught in very basic military tactic classes.

http://op-for.com/2006/07/prepping_the_battlespace.html

They are not hitting targets with the intent of killing as many civilians as possible unlike the rocket attacks that are coming out of Lebanon.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Rock

Just because they don't have the intent to do so doesn't mean it's perfectly justifiable to kill civilians. Of course, you might prefer to call the slaughter "prepping the battlespace" instead if you wish to.

I only meant to point out that Israel doesn't seem to be so "careful" or selective with their targeting as it's been stated here.

How can you say they aren't justified? You seem to ignore the fact that Israeli citizens are also dying and what is worse is the are being targeted indiscriminately. I think people have been spoiled by the way the US is able to conduct its wars and operations. The US has the luxury of being able to dictate the pace of their operations and take their time in carefully selecting targets all while trying to minimize civilian casualties.

Israel lacks this luxury. The more time they spend in logistics trying to pick targets with the least possible amount of civilian casualties means that many more innocent Israeli citizens are going to die from rocket/terrorist attacks. Not only that, but this type of enemy has adapted to blend into the civilian population. While the loss of innocent life is always a tragedy, I cannot understand how you don't think Israel isn't justified in civilian casualties when the person shooting at them and trying to kill them is hiding behind those civilians.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Rock

I'm not weighing these things up against each other. It's the worst thing you can do in a war. I'm not debating the Hezbollah attacks on Israel, I was just trying to argue that the airstrikes conducted by Israel aren't anywhere near as "precise" as they were made out to be.

And I was trying to argue this isn't true. Israel has been very precise and have hit the targets they have selected. I also pointed out that even though these are civilian targets, they were selected for their military value, not because Israel is out to kill as many civilians as they can. They aren't bombing every place just to kill Hezbollah either. Many of these are strategic bombings that will be used to help crush Hezbollah in the coming ground invasion as pointed out in the article I posted.

Are you arguing the other way because you believe civilian deaths equal an imprecise attack? That doesn't seem very logical to me if so.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

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So that's why those three civilian refugee convoys were attacked effectively at once; Hezbollah was using them to smuggle terrorists and weapons out of southern Lebanon, using actual refugees as human shields?

You mean those refugee convoys that were using the main road to Tyre which which has been under constant bombardment by Israel? That's called walking under the bomb. The roads they were walking on were the targets of the attacks, not the refugees.

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I'm further impressed by this statement. Taken in conjunction with the above comments about Lebanese civilians being used as human shields, it effectively serves to make everything in Lebanon a legitimate target, and let Israel say it isn't targeting civilians in the process.

No they aren't directly attacking civilians. They aren't bombing these places with the intent of killing Lebanese civilians. Intent is everything here and it's time people start considering this fact rather than simply looking at the situation from such a black and white perspective.

I'm sick of hearing complaints but no solutions. These people ARE hiding weapons in civilian areas. These people ARE using civilians as human shields. These people have less regard for their own countrymen's lives than then the enemy does. Think about that for a moment.

Now, tell me what should Israel do? How can Israel possibly fight again such a tactic without taking civilian lives? I'll tell you what I think, they can't because it is an impossible situation. This outcry to protect innocent life won't solve the situation and it NEVER will. Israel is pursing the only workable option to them now. It's tragic that civilians are going to die because of the actions but it does not make Israel wrong or immoral because you cannot ignore the intentions of Israel. Their intentions are that of protection and survival, not genocide and imperialism.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Lord Styphon

And Israel decided to attack them while they were on them? Some people just have the worst sense of timing in the world. And are just dumb; I mean, using a road to drive out of a combat zone? Stupid civilians, they should have gone through the back country. It's all their fault they got killed.

It's hard to say honestly. But lets look at the situation. Plenty of refugees are safely crossing the boarder though side roads. We aren't hearing anything about refugees out in the middle of nowhere being bombed and killed. This road that they were using was a constant target of both shelling and bombing by Israel. And yeah it actually is the fault of the civilians. Walking into the path of a tornado is nobodies fault but your own.

And it's not just a road, but a MAIN ROAD that has been under attack and a one of the many roads Israel has been warning people not to use. So was the target the main road or the civilians? Looking at the situation I would guess the target was the road.

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Looking at it, it would appear that, at best, Israel and Hezbollah have the same regard for the lives of Lebanese civilians; they simply don't care if they get in the way. Hezbollah demonstrates this by hiding among among Lebanese civilians; Israel by attacking those civilians without remorse to kill Hezbollah.

Israel isn't putting these people in a position of harm, Hezbollah is. Hezbollah is forcing Israels hand in this situation. Shooting the hostage the gun wielding manic is hiding behind while firing at you is not considered murder.

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On a different front, should this same disregard for civilian casualties be applied to Iraq? It certainly makes things easier.

Well during the actual start of the operation things were actually very similar to the current situation in Lebanon. We hit many civilian targets of military value and a lot of civilians lost their lives. I don't know where else you think those casualty numbers in Iraq came from. This is the tragic reality that needs to be faced when dealing with an enemy that is willing to hide in the general population hoping it offers them a level of protection.

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If you'll read what I've said, I haven't been ignoring the intentions of Israel. Israel's intentions have been a very important part of what I've been saying. And Israel's intentions appear inconsistent with their actions.

Can't say I can agree that their actions don't match their intentions. As I stated above, targets have been of military value including the refugees that were killed on a main road. No doubt some missiles have missed their intended targets but even the most precise weapon systems fail once and a while but these don't betray the intentions expressed by Israel.

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Of course they are. And if that safety means destroying Lebanon, so be it.

Countries can be rebuilt. We did it with most of Europe, Japan and are in the process of doing it in Iraq. I already know the rebuttal coming for this one, so before you give it fulfill the 'simple' request that was contently ignored before. What else can Israel do to defeat an enemy that is highly integrated in civilian population of Lebanon? I'm not trying to say the loss of life is tragic or the destruction of the infrastructure in Lebanon is disturbing, but it is time to drop this idealistic bullshit or nothing will ever change. Israels options are limited and I think they are following the best solution available to them.

I was speaking idiomatically.