Certified Certification, anyone?

In all seriousness, what you WANT to do does play into picking your certification. You have to consider the type of entry work you will be doing and how that will progress as you gain seniority.

They are different certifications. One is geared towards networking and one is systems administration. If pay is your concern, entry networking pays more than entry windows helpdesk. At the end, a Microsoft Exchange Architect makes just as much as a CCIE.

Being a MCSE/MCSA in Windows NT/2000/2003 employed as a Systems Administrator I can say that the certification is worth more than the paper it's printed on. It is true that there is a wide disparity between MCSE certified individuals it doesn't mean that all of us should be thrown under the bus. I couldn't do Windows networking if I didnt have an understanding of the TCP/IP protocol stack and it's related services such as DHCP, DNS as how it relates to Active Directory. I emphasis my practical experience since the MCSE is just a little line at the bottom of my resume. What makes that MCSE important is that it shows up as a term for search agents. Also, many Systems Administrator jobs add a footnote that a MCSE is desirable.
The time it takes to get one in addition to the extra exposure makes it well worth the effort. Just be sure to really understand what is required of a Windows Admin and you can avoid being just a 'paper mcse'.

Cetra is right on the cost/process involved in going down the CCNA route. I do however need to present an alternate angle on the MCSE route being a Windows Administrator. In NoCal, I command over 70,000 based on my MCSE and 7 years of helpdesk/sysadmin work. You can't just be a Windows Admin because you run XP Pro at home.

Depending on your motivation and timing issues you can try your hand at lower level certifications before you decide on whether to delve into CCNA or MCSE realm.

An entry level cert for the CCNA would be Network+ from CompTia. An entry level for the MCSE would be a MCP in Supporting Windows Professional. An A+ is an all around good cert if you want to be a Systems Administrator as well.

I have the MCSE/MCSA in NT4, 2000 and 2003 and the A+/Network+/Security+/Server+ from CompTia. The ones of most value to me and the ones that employers ask the most far are the MCSE and A+. Being a test writer and item review critic for the upcoming A+, I can say that the material is much more relevent to the real world than prior iterations. It's also a good launching point to get used to how to study and how the exams work.

How ya doing, buddy?

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Also, MCSE is utter shit. It would have cost me around $10000 to get the certs and all. To top that slap in the face, it expires after a few years. I'm not made of money.

Spend $1400 in building a 3 pc lab to simulate domain environment, and another 500 in books. Add in another $1000 for examinations. Around 3k for certifications and practical knowledge that goes with it.

and of course the certification expires in 4 years. My MCSE in NT4 isn't worth much nowadays with 2003 and Vista on the horizon isnt it? Microsoft itself doesnt even cancel out the certification - the industry does it.

The A+ and Network+ never expires. However, I was tested on TOKEN RING when I took it originally. I really doubt that bus and ring networking toplogies apply today.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

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really want to shake TDT's hand. I was shy to come out and say it, but dude is absolutely right. I was told back in 2001 just when I finished up my Windows Server 2000 course that, to get my MCSE, there were seven certification tests to take. Each test cost at least $1000 a piece, and the grand total was about $15,000. Every four years after that, you need to recertify at the same cost. I went to community college so I wouldn't have to pay more than $2000 for a solid education, so of course I stopped my trek for the MCSE or even the MCSA right then and there.

Each test cost $100 to take? If you are saying that's how much the training cost ($1000 each) how is that a slap against the MCSE? First, $10,000 is a whole lot more than what I've seen for full classes. Second, Microsoft doesn't force you to attend these classes. It's like saying the GMAT cost $8,000 which is blatently false. The test itself is $150. However you educate yourself to achieve it is totally on you.

It is also not true that you pay the same cost. Microsoft has always had a upgrade path to recertify in the latest operating systems. You had to have 6 exams to certify in NT4. I took special upgrade exams that only required 3 exams to upgrade to 2000. Books plus test cost a total of $600 or so for me. It was only ONE more test to recertify from 2000 to 2003.

Well, I certified myself in A+ in 1997. If I have been working since then, employers can safely assume that my knowledge has been updated through practical experience. If you took the cert, sat on it for a few years and then got a job later then your knowledge relevency can be questioned.

You don't have to be screwed to get certified. Every post I am making here is dispelling false statements. I mean come on, who can rightfully complain that if they got certified in Vista next year that it would expire 4 years after that?
The price of being in MIS/IT is that you must keep pace with technology. It's the same with programming. If you are a Cobol expert, save for limited cases you are worthless in today's C/PHP/JAVA world.

People somehow hate Microsoft enough to not look at their certs objectively and fairly.

I do understand where you are coming from Fatt but there are better ways to slap 10k down to take classes and get certified and still wonder if you got any useful information that makes you hirable.

Are you still looking into working or getting certified in IT Fatt? I'll be more than happy to help you put together an affordable lab environment down to the free 30 day eval versions of all Microsoft O/S software. I know that no one pays for M$ stuff anyways but its out there for the 1% of the pop who buys all their software.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

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Actually, what I was told was the cert tests each cost over $1000 to take, failure or not. I also was told that their were seven tests to take total. To top it all off, the total cost of the full on certification would be about $15,000. I am getting this info from two separate people in 2001, and if they are both wrong, then I apologize.

From Microsoft's Site:

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How much do certification exams cost?

Certification exams are priced according to currency values in specific countries and regions. Beta exams are free and offered by invitation only to selected candidates. Live exams typically cost $125 US per exam, effective January 4, 2002. Certification exam prices are subject to change. In some countries and regions, additional taxes may apply. Contact your test registration center for exact pricing.

also, info on a MCSE upgrade path from 2000 to 2003.

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Microsoft has designed an upgrade path that will enable a current MCSE on Microsoft Windows 2000 to earn the Windows Server 2003 credential in a time- and cost-effective manner.
How to Earn Your MCSE on Windows Server 2003

An MCSE on Windows 2000 needs to pass Exams 70-292 and 70-296 to earn the MCSE on Windows Server 2003 credential. No additional core or elective exams are required for an MCSE on Windows 2000 who passes Exams 70-292 and 70-296.

I am very sorry to hear that you got your info from two people completely talking out of their ass.

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I dig it if you get certified and keep up with current technology. I salute that. On the other hand, I have seen dudes who wave their 10 year old A+ cert around who have never used an OS beyond Win98. I have also seen dudes who are only worth the paper their names are written on. My former classmate Sanjay would play videogames in class while I was installing SCSI devices on 486s (for all you critics, despite popular belief, it is possible to run SCSI devices on 486s, but I highly don't recommend it).

I see no reason why a 486 wouldn't support a SCSI setup. If anything, it would still run better than its IDE counterpart because you are offloading a lot of I/O operations onto the SCSI card. I've never tried it myself though. I didnt have a SCSI setup until the Pentium 75mhz or so.

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or Microsoft, but I do have something against those who cheapen the value of a cert. Please don't get me wrong, I know these people wouldn't last a day in the real business world, but as a business man myself, if I hire a dud, I lose faith in who educated them. I know better than to blame a reputable cert for a bad employee, but not all employers know what certs are reputable.

Definently. I agree, and everything should be taken with a grain of salt. Not all MCSE's are badass but not all of them are worthless either. I have my own ways of interviewing Microsoft people. "Explain the difference between Share level and NTFS permissions..". If you dont know this thoroughly as an MCSA/MCSE you need to get the hell out.

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It urks me that you say COBOL. I actually know COBOL, and it makes me want to die . On the other hand, learning COBOL helped me to pick up SQL and MS Access/Excel much easier than my classmates, so it wasn't a complete waste.

LOL. I took a Cobol class as well. It takes like half a page of code to print "Hello World!". I have a friend who is a Cobol programmer in the medical profession making close to triple digits. Cobol programmers can be rare and you don't change working code in the medical field often.
Yeah, the nice thing about programming is a good programmer can code in any language - just have to learn the syntax.

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I decided not to go for the A+ because I kept failing the WinNT practice exam. We never really covered much of the NT part, as I had more fun breaking computers and electrocuting myself. Remember kids, for your own good, don't take power supplies apart. If it works, it works. If it don't, don't fix it, just toss it.

Yeah, the A+ exam hasn't been the best in previous years but is better now. Someone with 6 months of experience most likely isnt going to work on NT systems. Later iterations of the exam focus on the 2000/XP Desktop versions which is far more relevent for the experience base.

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MCSE/MCSA, these ones vary. I'd say they are absolutely worth taking if your employer will pay for them. The exams can be pretty rough if you aren't 'cheating', as they cover some obscure stuff and put *way* too much emphasis on doing things MS's way.

Yeah. I agree. Using NTBackup instead of Vertias Backup-Exec. pssssssshh
Disk Manager raid/dynamic volumes over my adaptec raid controller? pssssshhhhh That garbage is load and dump knowledge.

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*TonyDaTiger, I WISH token ring technology wasn't dropped the way it was. SO many advantages for a closed network.

LOL. But one cable getting kicked out will bring down your entire networK?

PUG is right about Novell. It used to be pretty well respected but Novell is pretty much dead these days.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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I should clear up my comment I made about the MCSE. I didn't mean to imply that the knowledge held by a MCSE is worthless, rather the market worth of MCSEs themselves are next to nothing at the moment. What I mean by this is there are so many people out there with MCSEs that employers like myself can easily find a MCSE who is willing to work for $25-30K or less a year. That's great for me, but bad news for MCSEs or potential MCSEs.

I'm not saying it is impossible for MCSEs to find great paying jobs, but due to the current competition in the market for that level of knowledge it is going to be very difficult to find such a job. Right now you have a much higher chance in landing a well paying job with a CCNA.

Yes but not all MCSE's are created equal. There is a wide disparity between how experienced and skilled between me MCSE and joe MCSE. It's like saying I have a physics degree and Bob has a physics degree. I set the curve in all my classes and Bob barely passed with C's. Or my 4.0 physics degree stacks up to Joe's degree of 4.0. I went to a rank #4 school, Joe went to a rank #30.

I wouldn't trust my Exchange server to someone I am only paying 30k a year to. Besides, if they were an actual qualified Exchange Administrator they would soon find an opportunity that would pay triple their salary.

I really find it absurd that someone would apply for a Systems Administrator position that pays a little over double In-N-Out wages.

Are there other working MCSA/MCSE's out there? I feel there is a lot of speculation out there on CCNA vs MCSE wages unless my company is the only one that pays 60-80k for MCSE administrators. Besides in terms of # of tests. It's 1 test for a CCNA and 7 test for an MCSE. Apples to apples would be a Microsoft MCP to a Cisco CCNA.

I'm glad someone started this thread. It's a kick in the ass for me to go advance my knowledge some more. Anyone know Microsoft Exchange well or interested in getting Vista certified? Could use someone to bounce/trade ideas with.

I was speaking idiomatically.