Prospect of peace in middle east

Today's news:

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JERUSALEM (CNN) -- An Israeli navy gunboat fired shells onto a northern Gaza beach Friday, killing at least seven people and prompting the military wing of Hamas to call off a 16-month-old cease-fire with Israel.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...ast/index.html

Looks like it's on again.

The Arabs and Jews have been at war with each other since the Biblical days. I can't see peace EVER existing unless there is
1.) Fundamental shift in the practice of Islam. Such as if Islam is a religion of peace, act like it.
2.) Muslims wipe out all Jews/Christians or vice versa.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

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Or the Israeli's agree to sit down with an elected government and talk about moving to the borders the rest of the world wants them at, 1967. It's doesn't need to be bloody, most Arab countries will be supportive and acknowledge Israel if it decides to pull back to the '67 borders and start acting kindly to its neighbors, instead of oppressing them.

Israel tried (see Oslo accords) but the Palestinians wouldn't have it.

From Wikipedia:

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An agreement on the withdrawal of Israeli military forces from the Gaza Strip and Jericho area. This agreement will include comprehensive arrangements to apply in the Gaza Strip and the Jericho area subsequent to the Israeli withdrawal.

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Hamas, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, which were known as the "refusal organizations", objected to the accords since they completely denounced Israel's right to exist, refusing to recognize what they dubbed the "Zionist entity". Their resistance was expressed in their acts of terror.

Also, the territories post '67 were seized by Israel AFTER Egypt, Jordan and Syria attempted to push Israel into the sea. In addition - Iraq, Sudan, Kuwait, and Algeris also mobilized its forces to attack Israel.

After defeating every attacking arab country on 4 fronts Israel seized the Golan Heights, Gaza Strip, Sinai Penninsula and the West Bank.

Israel fortified all 4 areas as they would serve as buffer as Israel would face continual assault from the arabs.

7 years later, Egypt and Syria commits a surprise attack on Israel known as the Yom Kipper war. The Egyptian/Syrian armies cross into the Golan Heights/Sinai Penninsula and were defeated within two weeks.

So no, I wouldn't expect Israel to give back those territories as they were acquired through self defense and for self defense. Besides, many of the people of that era have died of old age or have been incapacitated. (Note Ariel Sharron and Yassar Arafat). You have a newer generation of Arabs who weren't even born during those wars that are continuing to fight Israel.

And I dare say that Israel is pretty damn tolerent to its neighbors considering how often they instigate attacks. Israel didnt shell the west bank for the HELL of it, they are doing it to wipe out artillary positions from the Palestinians. If Israel was so reppresive, they would just simply wipe out every Arab within range of its borders. Something the Arabs tried to do back in 1967 and would do so today if they had the means of doing so.

Most amazing jew boots

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Israel isn't innocent at all, man.

You've heard about what happened in the Gaaza beach just days ago, right?

Yes, hence my comment that Israel didn't shell the Gaza beach for the hell of it. They didn't WANT to kill those 7 people on that beach. They are investigating the incident and posted an apology in CASE they were responsible.

Palestine AIMS for maximum civillian casulties. You can't say it's just a few "crazies" considering they ELECTED HAMAS to be in charge of things.

I'm not saying Israel is perfect. You can dig up their share of atrocities as well BUT I think its fair to say they have been the more civillized party in this war.

Wish I could find the story and the images but an event that stuck out in particular was a few years back two IDF soldiers took a wrong turn and was caught by Palestinians.

Both soldiers were beaten to death and there were pictures of Palestinians as young as 16 raising their bloodied hands and screaming how great 'God' is. They procede to multilate the corpses and then hang the bodies up for all to see.

That level of blind genocidal hatred is why there there can never be peace in the middle east without

1.) a fundamental change in how Islam is practiced. Christians have pillaged and killed in the name of God as well btw. Howevever it's 2006 and Islam is still doing it.

2.) One side wipes out the other. The Arabs either do another combined assault that pushes Israel to the sea or Israel invades and levels a radius around its current borders. They prohibit Arabs from even coming close to their borders and adopt a policy of substantial and instant retaliation for any attempts to attack Israel.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

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Source please if you could provide. I respect your argument, but in this case, we may heard some propaganda. And I agree, Israel is far from perfect. They are the worst violator of human right, the same might apply as well to palestinian extremist.

BBC news source:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/969778.stm

Some video of the lynching:
http://inhonor.net/videos/uped/fl_video.php?f_num=53101

Pictures of the two lynched IDF soldiers. *GRAPHIC, not safe for work*
http://inhonor.net/ramlah/

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Oh maybe they wish to. Casualites always greater in Palestine side. I never heard anything about Israel addressing apology for once though, maybe it's in diplomatic level, but public never knows.

They published an apology in an Israeli newspaper. The source is in the original CNN link.

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Please address the terrosist as Hamas or another Israel-proclaimed terrorist groups. PLO, Palestinian Civillians, and Hamas are seperate entities. If you know PLO you will be pissed of like the Palestinians did. Apart from their struggle in international level and diplomacy, they are bunch of shithole corruptors.

I will be more careful in distinguishing the groups. However the Palestinian people freely ELECTED Hamas a terrorist organization by any one's standards.

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They are the worst violator of human right, the same might apply as well to palestinian extremist.

I'd say Saddam Hussein, Slobodan Milosevic, whoever is in charge of the Rebels in the Congo, Abu Sayaff - Israel isn't the worst.

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I argue it would be much better to secularize the people like Turkey, AFAIK it's the best model for secularized islam-populated country, cmiw. Indonesia is bad example, while most of people are moderated islam, bunch of fucktard extremist do exist.

That I wholeheartedly agree with. If all the Middle Eastern countries were like Turkey, that would be a productive start.
Out of curiosity, do you know how Turkey treats other religions? Could there be a open public Buddhist Temple or Christian church?

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They aren't tolerant at all. Invading one neighbor and starting another war don't qualify as tolerant at all. The very existence of the country was a broken pledge to the Arabs, and it shouldn't even be there in the first place. Arabs shouldn't be paying the price for the crimes against humanity of other nations during WW2, they weren't even involved in the war.

When did Israel invade a neighbor and started a war? I could dig up about half a dozen events at least where arab countries invaded and attacked Israel (GOVERNMENTS not random terrorist). I will look more into the origins but wouldn't you agree what's done is done? 3 generations has passed since the founding of Israel. No matter the hatred, is an event such as the Ramallah lynching neccessary? Israel is likely to be elimiminated from a global map as likely as America giving California back to Mexico. You just deal with the way things are TODAY like civiillized people.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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Oh god... How come humans were that cruel? ;_;
I dont say Palestinians should forgive and forget what Israel did to them easily. But this brutality... I guess it can't be helped. Btw that was happened around 2000? make sense... it was during second Intifada I assume.

We all know that humans are capable of great evil but it's events like Ramallah continue to surprise us for the worst. From my understanding, this brutality is due to decades of propagating blind hatred by the people in charge of Palestine. It goes from Arafat down to the Mosque leaders, down to the educational teachers.
-Arafat himself was a terrorist and preached death to Israel
-Mosque leaders preached death to Israel
-Teachers preached death to Israel to children.
-Textbooks preached death to Israel
-Gunmen attend every funeral shooting guns in the air preach death to Israel.

Just hope you understand that considering what they face daily, Isreal has to defend itself vigorously. All things considered, they are gentle to their Arab neighbors.

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I could understand why Palestinians elected Hamas. While the PLO has their own spot on Jordania, living separately from the daily life of sufferings in Gaza, Hamas' close to palestinians in the social level. They built public services for the people and eventually, palestinians felt the guerilla closer to them than PLO.

So for the sake of some utilities, they knowingly elect a government that is scorned by civillized nations and continue the war that keeps their country so impovished? Come know, no civillized country will accept a government that has a platform insisting their neighbors be driven to the sea and all other outcomes are impossible?

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The Nazi victim has turned into Nazi.

I would not take this analogy. The Jews never caused trouble in Germany and never insisted that all of the Germans be killed or anything. The jews do not hate the Palestinians with the same fervor as their Arab neighbors hate them.

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While the Six Day War in 1967 would meet that qualification, you won't accept it. In its place, I offer the invasion of the Sinai during the Suez Crisis in 1956, and the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982.

No I would not accept that the Six-Day War was a hostile act from Israel. They might not be on the 2006 World Atlas had they not fought that war.

The Suez Crisis and the invasion of Lebanon are both debatable events on how much an aggressor Israel is. Especially the former as it was a multinational attack force that several nations wanted to keep open for economic interest. I think with Lebanon, Israel dispropiately responded to militant attacks but the arabs *DID* start by shelling Israel.

The point that I am trying to argue is that Israel is in no way can be held in the same regard as the Palestinians and Arab nations as a "partner of peace" when it comes to achieving peace in the region.

I was speaking idiomatically.

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Israel was an agressor in Suez, whether multinational or not, that does not absolve it from partial responsibility.

If you want to blame Israel for something every other nation on earth has done at one point or another more brutally and for pettier reasons, fine.

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1982 was shameful, Israel invaded and then proceeded to massacre thousands at Shabra and Shatilla, and massacred thousands more than the Palestinians ever attacked.

So Lebanon was just "chilling" and Israel decided to come and invade them for the hell of it?

1.) The Fatah - Revolution Council attempted to assasinate Shlomo Argov, the ambassador to the UK.

2.) Repeated shelling of Israeli towns by the PLO from Lebanon.

3.) Palestinians begin massive arms buildup, tripling their artillery cannons and rocket launchers to ramp up the shelling of Israeli towns.

If you were a soverign nation being shelled by your neighbor what would you do? You would secure the area where the artillery/rockets were being fired from to remove their range wouldn't you? Maybe invasion was too heavy handed a response? Either case, Israeli responded to attacks upon it's civillian centers.

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With '67, it still attacked and started the war, no matter what comes up,

I'm not sure if it's pride or what but that is one of the most willfully ignorant statements I have ever read. Gee when over the course of three weeks:

*Egypt concentrates large armed forces in the Sinai penninsula. (For what I dunno, an INVASION?)
*Blockaded the Straights of Tiran and the ISRAELI port of Eliat. (For what I dunno, denying food and supplies to Israel for what.. an upcoming INVASION?)
*Egypt evicts UN Peacekeepers seperating Israel and Egypt. (For what I dunno, an INVASION?)
*Jordan suddenly joins the Egyptian/Syrian military alliance and places ITS TROOPS under Egyptian command. (For what I dunno, they really like Egypt or was it for a future INVASION?)
*Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait also follows suite by sending troops and armor. (I don't think it's for an INVASION, probably some big Arab BBQ or picnic)
*Israel is now surrounded by 465,000, over 2,880 tanks and 810 aircraft (A little bit extreme for such an exercise? Or was it an INVASION force?)

Israel attempts to resolve the situaiton politically by apporaching the Great powers who promised that Israel would have freedom of navigation. Britain and France fail to live up to their agreement that they would help Israel. The United States President states that they would come up with a plan to block the armada. 6 days go by with no action being taken and with nearly half a million troops on the Israeli border - on June 4th, the IDF is to eliminate the forces that threatens Israeli's existence.

Was this all a big understanding? Was there no Arab threat to Israel prior to this? Was there really just a giant picnic and BBQ being put together?

Lets look at history

1948 - War of Independence.
*ONE* day after the British Mandate over Palestine expires and Israel declares its independence, five neighboring Arab states (Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan) invade the newly formed state of Israel.

So in '67, THOSE SAME countries with additional forces, upgraded armamants and USSR backing are doing WHAT exactly on Israeli's border?

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Israel's responce to the beach massacres can't even be classified as a real apology. They've come out and started claiming that they weren't even responsible, and when discussing their actions, their purported apology was hogwash. It wasn't an apology at all, the Israeli government is just trying to find a way to start covering when they realize that they might have triggered another intifada.

Please.. so what does Hamas do when it kills people other than IDF soldiers and generals? Write tearful apologies and send flowers to deceased innocents?

Or do they hand out candy in the streets and praise God about how "great" he is and promise additional bloodshed until every zionist man, woman and child is wiped out?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

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Since Israel currently holds more territory than the world community officially recognizes, can someone tell me how it would be morally grievous if the Arab powers seized control of the territory that doesn't belong to Israel (territory acquired after the 1967 war) and used it to establish a Palestinian state?

For many reasons I have outlined, Israel is well within their rights to keep the land they bled for in the Six-Day war.

Also, define world community? World community being UN or the Arabs? Also if we are using "World community", both Israel and Palestine were allotted land. The arabs considered the land allocated by the "World community" as "morally grievous" and attempted to wipe Israel off the planet on at least two occasions (War of Independence, Six-Day War).

Secondly, would it be morally grievous for Mexico to attack the United States to reclaim California?

Lastly, the Palestinians could have had a state for a LONG time. They just simply refuse to allow themselves to. How can a nation be taken seriously when you elect HAMAS as your governing authority?

FELIPE NO