So glad we defeated the Taliban!

Quote:

Bomb the taliban, take out the military capabilities and terrorist capabilities of threatening nations, but don't commit American lives to a clearly failed westernization program.

That is what got us into this mess in the first place. THe CIA funnelled a ton of money, arms, and support to the Mujuhadden when they were fighting the Soviets, and once they won, the Americans packed up went home. The Soviets devastated the populaiton - I can longer remember the precise firgure - but the percentage of the Afghan population killed in the war is shocking. Into the resulting power vacuum came the Taliban, who ideological roots and black turbans can be traced to a precise Pakistani madreseh on the road between Peshawar and Islamabad. Even today, it is hard to find anyone in Pakistan or Afghanistan who holds a grudge against Russia - they still feel that the real betrayal was by the Americans abandoning them at the end of the Soviet occupation. So you can bomb the Taliban out of existence in Afghanistan, but it is alive in well in NWFP, Baluchistan, the tribal agancies and many remote valleys in the Northern Areas, and it will be back. Taliban philosophy can only gain creedence in areas of low education, poor security, even poorer economic prospects. Virulent anti-Americanism in Pakistan, the assassination of General Massoud, and the presence Osama Bin Laden are inextricably linked and point to something bigger and more troubling. THe only way to fix that region is to help them rebuild their civilization. I can't help but feel had we done that in the 80s, we would have saved ourselves a lot of heartache in the 00s.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Wesker

My poiny is that I think it is a mistake to try and bring democracy and western ideas to apeople who, by the nature of their religious beliefs, are not willing to accept them. I say that the threats should be removed, but the efforts at nation building should not be taken. Isalmist governments will always be at odds with western governments, this conflict is at the heart of the beliefs of the Islamist Jihadists. Bush thought "If these people just get a taste of good old American style freedom, than they'll just run to it and adopt it"..he was dead wrong.

This strategy is just asking for trouble down the road. Perceptions of unfairness and hypocrisy is what mainstreamed radical Islam. Acting like a bully just makes it harder for moderates in friendly countries like Egypt and Jordon. Pressing for reforms in our oppressive allies like Saudi Arabia would go much further in making us safe than bombing uranium enrichment plants in Iran.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Adamgian

Beheadings tend to be tolerated because, just like lethal injections, people believe that they are a painless and yet effective method of getting the job done. The method they are executed in means that the reciever is dead virtually instantly. It seems gruesome, but in reality, its better than other forms of execution such as hanging.

I don't think he's talking about capital punishment, but rather militant beheadings, like in Iraq, which are done to shock and outrage. As a side note, it is thought that the disembodied head remains "alive" for as much as 15 seconds following the extraction. Gruesome thought.

I agree with you that Islamic countries are not the least bit interested in westernizing - partly this is because westernization is synonymous with the throw away parts of our culture, and not our more cherished values. But modernization is a must. If we are ever going to reach a detente, let alone common ground in our ever widening global theology/culture war, muslims must take a few steps towards our millenium. In this way, it is a shame about Saddam Huessien. Sure, he was a bellicose psychopath, but before the Iran-Iraq war he was the most progressive leader in the middle east and did a lot of good for Iraq overall.

THe history of western involvement the middle east/ west asia over the last 70 years or so, reads like a Three Stooges script. We never missed an opportunity to fuck ourselves. So much of what we do now is simply trying to fix the mis-steps made with an earlier policy.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Wesker

Have yet to hear of any American facing capital punishment for switching religions. Quite a difference between executing a man who rapes and murders children and executing a man who dares to deny Islam.

In Pakistan I have noticed, people sometime are not able to clearly distinguish between religion and nationality. There is a perception among muslims that Pakistani christians are free to travel to and live in "christian lands" such as the US, and they get preferential treatment at embassies etc. At times of particular tension between the US and Pak, militants will go out and throw a bomb at a church in Lahore in the belief that they are striking at the West. In Afghanistan I imagine there is a similar outlook. So against a background of religious animosity, what is simple apostasy for us, may be seen more as traitorous to them. Many countries including the US, consider treason a capital offense. Not saying this to condone the actions in Afghanistan, as i certainly don't. Merely pointing out that there can be a cultural context that makes it slightly more comprehensible.

As for outrageous, I still scratch my head thinking about the capital crime in Pakistan of "insulting the prophet".

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?