[General Discussion] Games you consider "Perfect"?

I feel the same way as you do about original versions. And that original version is:

Final Fantasy IV - USA version; SNES.

Why is it perfect? Let's start off with the storyline...

Spoiler:

The game starts with the "Red Wings" led by the lead character of the game stealing a crystal from a town of magicians, and with that, starts some action:
"Cecil: The crystal or your life!"

and some emotion by crew members later:
"Crew: Why are we robbing crystals from innocent people?"

Later on, Cecil gives the crystal to his king, and steps back to leave, but stops to work up some courage about confronting him on what they are being ordered to do:
"Cecil: We do not understand the meaning of taking crystals away from honest people."

Soon enough Cecil loses his command of the "Red Wings" (the best sports team ever, might I add ). His girlfriend is concerned about him as he is feeling down about his decision to question the very King that raised him since childhood:
"Cecil: I am just a Dark Knight with no courage to disobey his majesty."

Cecil is then sent on an errand, and in doing so he burns the nearby village of callers because of the Kings' package which contained that fire spirit. During the meyhem, a very small girl is distraught:
"Girl: Mommy! Mommy!"

It is then that Cecil thinks the killing is wrong and decides to go against the King:
"Kain: I'm afraid we must do away with her too.
Cecil: Kain! She's just a kid!
Kain: You dare to renounce your loyalty to his majesty?
Cecil: Forget it! Never again will I follow such an order!"

Shortly after Kain is lost in a quake and Cecil & the girl join forces. They meet up with Tellah, an old man filled with anger over his daughter and boyfriend running away with each other. Approaching the castle where she and the boyfriend are present, it is bombed by the Red Wings, Cecil's former brigade. Entering the castle, Tellah finds his daughter dying from the bombing and her boyfriend Edward perfectly okay. In anger, he blames him and starts to fight him:
"Tellah: You're the bard! You did this to her!"
Edward tries to explain it was a man named Golbez who is now running the Red Wings. Tellah runs off to look for revenge. Edward stays with Anna's body because he feels there is nothing left to do. Rydia tries to convince him to get up:
"Rydia: Crybaby! You are a man! You are a grown-up! You are not the only one who has lost loved ones!"

Later, the party runs into Rosa, Cecil's girlfriend, who is sick. They decide to find the Sandruby to cure her. After that journey, Edward sees an image of his passed girlfriend. She tells Edward to have courage:
"Anna: Edward... Do not let Golbez have all the crystals. You loved me. Now, give your love to all of your people."

The main journey has begun and the party is full of members. They set off to help prevent the next castle that contains a crystal from getting bombed. There is a "road block" in their way -- solid ice is blocking their ability to get through a mountain to the next castle. Rydia is the only black mage in the party and thus their only hope to be rid of it and continue the journey. She is extremely apprehensive because her home town was burned in flames:
"Cecil: She's afraid of fire because her village was destroyed in a fire.
Rosa: Listen, Rydia. You're the only one who can melt this ice.
Rydia: ...
Rosa: If we can't get through here to Fabul, more people will be in danger..."
She works up the courage to learn and use fire spell to melt the ice. Everyone cheers and thanks her.

Upon arriving at Fabul, it is bombed and raided by the Red Wings & monsters. The party helps to defend it -- all the way to the crystal room. This is where Kain returns and is surprisingly attacking his best friend Cecil!:
"Cecil: Fight with us!
Kain: Surely. But against you, Cecil!
Cecil: Kain!?"
Kain attacks and defeats Cecil in the fight. Cecil starts to realize that he must be under the mind control of Golbez. Just after, Golbez makes his appearance in the game and blasts everybody in the room and kidnaps Rosa. The crystal is then stolen.

Later, it is decided that the party should take a ship to the castle of Baron and confront the King head-on. On the way, a giant water beast attacks the ship and everybody gets seperated. Cecil is completely alone, washed up on a shore near Mysidia, the town that he stole the crystal from at the very beginning of the game. Nobody likes him in that town. Although Cecil was pushing the wise Elder around earlier to obtain the crystal, Cecil explains that he has went against the King and Elder has this to say:
"Elder: Lost your friends. It would be your trial. But as long as you depend
upon the Dark Sword, you cannot defeat true evil. Moreover, you might be
consumed with its evil at any time. If you wish to fight against evil with
good, go to Mt. Ordeals to the east of Mysidia."

With Cecil, mysidian twins accompany him to see if he can rid of his darkness. Upon arriving, they find Tellah, who is there to gain the knowledge of "Meteo" spell, the most powerful spell known, so that he can use it for his revenge.
At the top of Mt. Ordeals, Cecil hears a voice:
"Part from your past! Conquer your Darkness within! If you can't overcome
your past self, the sacred power of Light will not accept you!"
Cecil then sees a mirror image of himself and he must confront it. He decides not to attack it, as that would be the hateful thing to do. He has passed the test and becomes a paladin. Shortly after, Tellah learns meteo.

Next, their plan is to goto Baron, as it was before when Cecil was with the others before the ship crash. Upon arrival, they meet a lost party member and get him back again. After sneaking into the castle of Baron, they charge for the throne room and discover that it was not the King the whole time, but was one of the four elements:
"King: I see you've become a Paladin. But I do not like that. That's not good, Cecil.
Cecil: King Baron?
King: Baron? Who's that? Oh... I remember. He's the fool who refused to
surrender! Oh, yes! And I took his place! Ha-hah-hah!"

After defeating the fake King, the party exits the throne room and the fake King's voice is heard. He is caving the walls in of the hallway they are in and forcing the doors to stay locked. The walls are almost caved in to the point that they will all be crushed. That's when the twins, the children, decide to sacrifice themselves to save everybody:
"Palom: Thanks, dude!
Porom: We loved to be with all of you!
Porom: Please look after Cecil, Master Tellah!
Palom: Ready, Porom?
Porom: Yes!
Cecil: Wait! NO!!! Don't!!!!
Porom & Palom: STONE!
They turn themselves into stone and halt the advance of the walls.
Tellah: What a rash thing to do... HEAL! No effect. They have become stone by their will. Fools. An old man should fulfill his share first."
Everybody grieves for a few moments and Tellah swears revenge.

After escaping the room, they board an airship of the castle and are met by Kain, who is still under the spell:
"Kain: Worried? If you want her back, get me the Crystal of Earth.
Cecil: Crystal of Earth? Of Toroia?
Kain: I'll exchange her with the crystal. Crystal or Rosa's life!"

The party decides to goto Toroia but the crystal was taken by a dark elf. They meet Edward there, who was hurt from the ship accident. Edward gives the party an item called "TwinHarp" in case they need distant help from him.
Indeed, they do, because the party is unable to defeat the dark elf:
"Nurse: Stay in bed! You cannot move around! Where are you going?
Edward: Don't worry. I just want to get to... my... harp. Ouch!"
He plays his music and the dark elf cannot stand it. The party is able to kill him and retrieve the crystal.

Eventually, Golbez leads the party to a tower where he, Kain and Rosa are located. When they reach the top, Tellah is filled with rage:
"Golbez: I have no business with you, old man.
Tellah: But I do!
Tellah rushes Golbez, knocking Cecil out of the way.
Tellah: This is for Anna!!
Tellah attacks Golbez, doing very minor damage.
Golbez: No one can ever defeat me!
Tellah tries more.
Tellah: M... Meteo!
Cecil: No... don't!
Yang: It'll destroy you!
Tellah: I'm spending my life to defeat you!
Tellah casts Meteo. Golbez is smashed for 9999 damage!
Golbez: No way!"
Tellah falls over. So does Kain.
Shortly after, Tellah says his last words:
"Tellah: I.. .failed...
Tellah: I brought this upon myself. Because I lost myself in hatred. Avenge
my daughter for me, please!"

Much later, the party is in a somber mood because Golbez has collected all of the crystals, but it is found out that there is an underground and a way in!
After entering, they locate the castle of the underground, Giott's castle, and Golbez is already one step ahead of them and takes their crystal, despite Rydia's surprise return to help. The king sends the party to the tower of Bab-il to retrieve all of the crystals. Inside the tower, they are told that the crystals were returned to the upper world. Later, they find a super cannon in the tower which will destroy the underground castle. The controls are locked into place and there is no way to deactivate the sequence. That is when Yang decides to bust the controls up by sacrificing himself to save the castle:
"Yang: Tell my wife... to live for me!
Kain: Open up, Yang!
Rydia: Yang!
Rosa: Please! Please don't do this!"

Upon exiting the tower in the underground, they are chased by the Red Wings while in their airship. Cid decides to do something rash to allow them to escape the attack:
"Cecil: Cid!
Rydia: Come on!
Cid: Be good, Rydia! Hurry to Baron!
Cid jumps overboard.
Cid: Golbez! I'll show you the great fire works of Cid, the Master Engineer!
Cid detonates a bomb which seals the entrance to the Underworld. Moments
before it's completely sealed, Enterprise is able to slip back to the
overworld."

Later, the party picks up a ninja named Edge whose castle was also destroyed by Golbez. After moving down the tower of bab-il, they arrive back inside of the underground.
There is one more crystal left -- inside of a sealed cave. Giott knows how to unseal it. The party reaches the crystal room and there is no confrontation inside. They obtain the crystal and leave. They are caught by a trap and defeat it. At the entrance to this cave, Golbez's voice is heard talking to Kain:
"Golbez: Kain... Return to me, Kain... Come back to me with the crystal.
Rosa: Get a hold of yourself!
Kain: I'm... all right. I am no longer under his control!
Kain attacks Cecil.
Cecil: Ugh!
Kain takes the crystal and runs away."

Back on the overworld, the party goes to see Elder. They believe the only way for them to get to the Moon to stop Golbez is to pray for the legendary "Big Whale" airship:
"Elder: Wish, everyone! The legend shall come alive now!"
The ship emerges and they are able to goto the moon. When they arrive they eventually meet a Lunarian who tells them that there is much more going on than just Golbez's bombings:
"Cecil: Is that who is controlling Golbez?
FuSoYa: He is Zemus. He needs the crystals as the energy source to reactivate
the Tower of Bab-il. To bring down the Giant of Bab-il to annihilate the
living on earth!"

Heading back to Earth, they discover the giant is already in the process of destroying Earth. The party decides to infiltrate and destroy the giant. When they succeed, Golbez appears and the Lunarian FuSoYa uses a spell to cure him of control. It turned out that even Golbez was a puppet:
"Golbez: Why did I have all that hatred?
FuSoYa: Come to your senses! Do you remember your father's name?
Golbez: My father? His name is... KluYa?
Cecil realizes that KluYa is the name of his own father.
"Rosa: That means...
Edge: Cecil's... brother?
Cecil: Golbez is my...?
Cecil: I have been fighting my own brother...
Golbez: You are my brother?"

At the end, the party later runs into the evil Zemus. Golbez of the dark and FuSoYa the Lunarian are unable to make a dent in him.
"Zeromus: Suffer... and perish... My hatred will last until I destroy all...
Now it's your turn... Come into my darkness!"
Meanwhile, in the wishing tower, Palom, Porom, Cid, Yang, Edward and others are
watching on.
"Elder: Ahuh! Now is the time to wish for the earth! Palom! Porom! We shall
send people's wishes to Cecil!"
The wishes of the group in Mysidia gives Cecil the power to get up and use a crystal to weaken Zemus to be able to defeat him.

When the party defeats Zemus' second form, "Zeromus", he has this to say as he is perishing:
"Zeromus: I will not perish as long as there is evil in the hearts of the
people... GRRRRRRRRRR!"
After a moment, FuSoYa tells Cecil and the group this:
"FuSoYa: Evil in our minds will never disappear. We all have both evil and good
in our mind, just as there are the crystals of light and darkness, the ground
and the underground. But as long as the evil exists, so does good. Just as
you held good in your heart to fight evil."

At the end, everybody is able to rebuild their respective castles. The characters who were part of saving the world become the Kings of their castles. Cecil and Rosa are to be married and crowned. But a moment before the wedding...
"Rosa: Cecil?
Cecil: Nothing. I thought I heard my brother's voice.
Rosa: Really?
Cecil: Never mind.
After Rosa and Cid leave the room, Cecil is alone and says...
"Cecil: I did hear him. He said... good-bye."
...which is the last line in the game.

If you click the above spoiler, you will see the amount of sheer emotion that happens in every last scene of Final Fantasy IV. I will not go through what types of emotion there are, because I did not type that spoiler for 2 hours for no reason. The music is something that was done so well that it helps the storyline give it the emotion that I see in the game.

It is also the best plot I have ever read in a video game. It is filled with characterization and a non-stop quest to obtain the crystals before the enemies do.

Finally, the gameplay happens to be my favorite. Sure, there are no relics, accessories, limit breaks, and other new ideas, but I respect and love the fact that each and every character is a specific class with their own abilities and spells. I also happen to like the boss battles in this game a lot. I like the spells a lot because I end up using all of them before the game is over. Games like FF6 or 7 have so many spells that I end up ignoring most of them.
They did a really good job at not going over board with this FF game and giving the game the boundries of unique classes so that everybody can work as a team to beat the battles.

So, it's perfect because it's extremely well-rounded in those areas.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Helloween, can you do me a favor and briefly tell me the storyline of CT in the same format as I did in my long SPOILER above? Doesn't have to be as long, but please tell me the story in an enthusiastic way. Add your own comments if you want. Tell me what you find brilliant. Use quotes directly from the game like I did. Here's the script: http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/...ger_script.txt
Obviously I can't just read all that. I don't understand the context of where they are just by reading that. That's why I'd like your input and opinion.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I'd like to second Starcraft here. It's perfect. It's speedy as hell, and the units are excellent. You cannot produce as much as a Age of Empires game -- and that's a good thing. Makes managing it easier and getting to the war faster.

I'm glad to see someone seconded FF4, the best game ever.

Mario 3 is also the best platformer made. It's better than Mario World to me because of the challenge in levels. Also, you cannot just goto a secret level like in World and obtain all the items you want. (In world you can goto that secret level and get yoshi and 2 capes whenever you want). There are restrictions in the number of clouds, p-wings, etc.

Double Post:

Originally Posted by Kostaki

Dragon Quest III. Regardless of which version of the game you played, you were in for the time and the challenge of your life. You could ride solo, you could duo, trio, or go for a full party. You could choose so many distinct classes, then hit up the Shrine of Dharma and create hybrid upon hybrid of each and every class to have ultimate customized classes. This was only the NES version too.

Once SNES and GBC versions came along, they took perfection to a whole new level. To this very day, Dragon Quest III GBC is without a doubt the single best portable cartridge you can own hands down. A real pity the DS didn't support those in the end though. ;_;

Completely agreed. DW3 is my favorite DW game of all time. I love how you have to pick classes. The GBC remake is excellent.

I don't "perfect" this game because it doesn't have a masterful & cinematic story with tons of characterization, but its the best DW there is.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by HostileCreation

In my opinion, Link's Awakening blows A Link to the Past out of the water. While LttP is certainly a great game, Link's Awakening and the experience I had playing it make it my favorite. The story, while never at the forefront, is much more involving and complex than any other Zelda game, especially LttP (which had virtually no story). The gameplay had all of the brilliant elements LttP created and expanded upon them, bringing new and more versatile items to your arsenal. The dungeons felt richer and more challenging, as did the bosses. And Link's Awakening was the first Zelda game to really push the idea of sidequests and other activities to do outside of dungeons (other than finding your way to the next dungeon), which I really love about all the later Zelda games. It also had characters you cared about, and the ending came as a total surprise, both devastating and profoundly beautiful after having played it for so long and put so much time into it.

That's the perfect game for me, bar none.

Even though RPG is my favorite genre and I don't think about Zelda too much, I think I agree with you here. I haven't played any Zelda in 6 years, but I remember liking Awakening more. Seemed to challenge me better.

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Originally Posted by SOLDIER

Hold on a sec. Are you saying you find the original SNES version to be perfect? So you don't mind the awful translation, brief censorship and altered Easy Mode?

I was going to explain why it's better than the others but I forgot.

1. The amount of items in the japanese game fills up your inventory window too early in the game. I don't even give a crap whatsoever about those items. Oh my god, they seperated all of the status-curing items instead of grouping it into one item called "Heal" like the USA one has. It's such a hard game. Oh no! The items being seperated or all in one doesn't add a challenge to me. I like to refer to the other one as the "annoying type".

2. "Several battle commands have been removed—including Tellah's Recall (allowing him to use a random magic spell), Edward's Medicine (which used Potions from the player's inventory to heal the entire party), and Cecil's DarkWave, etc". Hmmmm.. let's see... how does keeping options that help you in battles make things harder? It doesn't. It makes it easier.

3. I have beat the supposed "hard type" and it did not feel any harder whatsoever in terms of boss & enemy power.

4. Translation compared to which one? The ps1 and gba remakes have left out the classics like "Spoony Bard" and "Ohh.. getting cozy". Take a look at my first post on page 1 of the thread. Look at he quotes from the story. They are great, emotional quotes. There's nothing wrong with them. Also, I am so obsessed with FF4 that I have compared the three translations (SNES, PS1 and GBA). The American SNES one is superior. For example:

Spoiler:

SNES:

Edge: Hope he doesn't get hypnotized again.
Kain: If that happens again, go ahead and get rid of me.

PS1:

Edge: You'll just end up gettin' hypnotized again.
Kain: Pray kill me if that happens.

GBA:

Edge: I hope you don't end up betraying us again.
Kain: If that happens, kill me as well.

I find the SNES one best because Edge begins by not respecting or liking Kain enough to even talk to him. He throws that comment into the group out of his irritation. Then, Kain uses an indirect way to speak of them killing him instead of a boring direct way. "get rid of me" tells me more of what he's feeling and "kill me as well" or "pray kill me" are stupid lines.

Reply back about this if you want. I am always open to talking about my perfect video game -- all versions.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Kostaki

So because Dragon Quest III, a game which started out on the Famicom/NES, does not have a "masterful & cinematic story" you simply cannot find it perfect. Since when do games require having cinematics of ANY type to be perfect? I realize that might be your personal preference, but come on. You lost a ton of respect with me with that statement right there, and that's sad.

The only thing I think games should be "required" to have in order to be perfect to any particular person is entertainment value. How it is achieved, either by "masterful & cinematic story" sequences or kickass gameplay, is entirely at the discretion of each respective game. It is the sole reason there is such diversity in what people find perfect, from Katamari to Tetris to Mario to Metroid to Final Fantasy.

I'm quite surprised you choose to dote on Dragon Quest so much, then say that. I guess your views have changed over the years.

I think you have me wrong here. First off, it's the perfect dragon warrior. The GBC version is my 5th favorite game of all-time. (After FF4, Shining Force CD, FF1, Shining Force 3).

In fact, it's well known by people who know me that 80% of how I score a video game is based on how good gameplay is, while 20% is based on music, story, and extras.

We are just at a complete difference of opinion. For example, Tetris is a rather perfect puzzle game, and requires no storyline to earn that label.

I simply believe that RPGs (my favorite genre) are held to a very high standard. Sure, I didn't expect cinematics on original NES, but I keep my definition of a perfect RPG (keyword: RPG. I didnt mean to say "GAME" in general) the same. And the reason for that is because I expect their storylines to really move me and their gameplay be brilliant. If they excel at both, they are perfect to me. DQ8 is pretty close to perfection because of it's storyline and gameplay, but DQ8 didn't make my top 5 and it's gameplay isn't as excellent as 3's.

So in review:
DW3 has perfect gameplay.
FF4 is a perfect RPG (story + gameplay), thus a perfect game.
Tetris is a perfect puzzle game, thus a perfect game.
An RPG must be perfect in both aspects to be rated a perfect game to me.
To me, it is entertainment value for most genres, but not RPGs.
Also keep in mind there are rarely any perfect video games to me.
I find things like DW3, Shining Force CD, and other stuff EXTREMELY GOOD GAMES but it takes a lot for the honor of being called perfect.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Kostaki

So in essence, a game that allows you complete customization of your party and allows you to go through the story with any character combination you like compares to a game where you are given no character customization at all and up to the release of FFIV Advance, absolutely no choice in who you could have in your party at ALL.

I'm not ragging on FFIV at all here as it is an excellent game in it's own right, but you have to be sorely mistaken if you think FFIV's gameplay hangs with Dragon Quest III. Dragon Quest is BUILT on gameplay, that's why it has the following it does. FFIV is superior in story and characterization, DQIII is superior in gameplay and customization. Since gameplay has a higher value than story and characterization well, you get the idea. Don't say it doesn't either, because nobody will play a game they hate to play because the story is badass, whereas anyone will play a fun game with little story.

Now you are getting into sheer opinion. You are comparing the games and how they were done.

Differences between us:
Borg = Entertainment value for most genres is good enough to decide on giving the perfect title. RPG's = Gameplay + Storyline must be perfect to gain the title.

You = Entertainment value must be perfect for any genre for it to gain that title.

So, for example, there is heavy entertainment value when I play the addicting game "Diablo 2". It is pretty much like crack. But overall fulfillment is a term that has not been brought up yet. Sure, I can play Diablo 2 and get entertainment at the time of my playing it, but afterward, or reflecting on it, or looking back, there was no character-based storyline, there were no cool extra fun things to do, and so the fulfillment is less.

DW3 has no cinematic storyline, but it fulfills me in every bit of gameplay that I asked it for. I think I get your point now, though. You are trying to argue that almost all DW is not built upon story at all. It is built upon great gameplay. I like gameplay the most, of course, too. That's why DW > FF (as a series). So, you are saying I should admit that my favorite DW is a perfect game because of it's great, great gameplay that we both love so much.
Can't do it. I can say that, knowing full well that DW is built upon gameplay, that it is the absolute PERFECT DRAGON WARRIOR there is. But not the perfect game, let alone RPG.

FELIPE NO

It seems like you keep bringing up what your opinion is of FF4 and how it does not deserve to be a perfect game just because you believe the gameplay is worse. I like the gameplay of FF4 the most, having experienced every FF and DW game because:

1. Specific character classes, pretty much equalized.
2. You cannot splurge yourself in getting the best spell in the game for everyone like on some games. There are specific boundries so that everyone must work as a team in the battle to defeat it. (This is not an argument against my 5th favorite game, remember. I'm stating why FF4 is on top, that's all).
3. The bosses are some of my favorite. There are elemental ones, there are tough summons, and there are ones that you must use specific strategy like bouncing a spell off of an ally so it goes to the enemy. Many Final Fantasy bosses are actually more fun to face than Dragon Warrior bosses (although sometimes DW ones are harder, at the core).
4. Has my favorite spells. I also end up using every single spell rather than get tons of magic like on FF6 or 7 and only end up using half of the available beacuse a lot of it is useless.
5. Has my favorite summons. Asura, Baham, Odin, etc.
6. Getting the best weapons and armor in the game usually means defeating placed bosses beforehand to prove yourself.
7. ATB is a great system.

Can't think of what else right now. So you said "when it simply does not have the gameplay aspect"... that is your view of it. Mine is different.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

(This is not an argument against my 5th favorite game, remember. I'm stating why FF4 is on top, that's all).

^ you may have missed that part. That goes for any point I was trying to make about FF4. And of course all of that is opinionated.
Also, just because DW3 might have more "gameplay potential" just because you can choose what classes you want, doesn't mean it has better caves, bosses, monsters, etc. But enough opinion.

Wouldn't you think that the perfect RPG game ever made would have the best gameplay, cinematical story, characters, side quests & other side fun things to do? Pretend that exists for you.

Then why is it so hard to understand that FF4 is close to perfect because it suits what I want in terms of those things?

You could be achieving maximum entertainment value if DW3 had more than just having the best classic gameplay in the world of gaming. But it doesn't have a lot more. (remember, this isn't me making fun of my 5th best. Gameplay is more important to me than any other aspect, but adding the best story, cinematics, side quests, etc, would make a game like that absolutely perfect in every way -- (EDIT): -- perfect in all the ways that you can possibly be in a game. You are forcing yourself to think that perfection begins and ends in just gameplay for some reason, yet would (i hope) admit that a perfect game would consitute perfect gameplay, chars, story, sidequests, etc).

So, if DW3 had a brilliant plot & characters with the same gameplay, it would officially be my perfect game, and FF4 would not because it would, for example, be the same but without the storyline. I don't know how else to explain this and its almost 6am

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Please read my edit in the above post as well.

Double Post:
We are technically arguing over the definition of "perfect" here. I don't think it begins and ends with gameplay, if i were to create a perfect video game in my mind. It would be perfect in every last area. Period. Thank god FF4 exists because it is, especially for it's time, what i would consider perfect. Now of course the bar has raised a lot and I'm sure we are all still waiting for something perfect to arrive.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

...as opinion.

But back to the "perfection" thing...
It only matters what we perceieve or want as perfect.

So, can you tell me exactly what you would want?
Or is the answer always going to be as simple as: "The highest entertainment value that I can get" (which i still think is vague, because my highest entertainment value is all of those things i listed before, so what are yours)?

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Originally Posted by Kostaki

I'm simply pressing as to why he somehow believes that a franchise built on gameplay has equal level gameplay than a franchise build on story and cinematics.

I think the last part of this sentance is wrong. Just because it seems like the FF series is built heavily upon story & cinematics does not mean that they are not trying with regards to gameplay or that the gameplay of a series such as that is going to suck. (Actually, my opinion of it is that, on average, FF gameplay is worse than DW, but I like two of the FF games equally with regards to gameplay as DW games -- FF1 and 4). Also, on the reverse side, a series heavily built on gameplay doesn't automatically mean bad stories. Look at DQ8!

Originally Posted by Kostaki

No need to continue, I was simply looking to see why such a hardcore Dragon Quest fan suddenly lost faith in his series by reducing it to 5th on his list.

Did I have a list that showed DW3 higher than 5?? I was wondering what you meant by this.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I regard my top 5 as extremely good. The 6th game, whatever that may be, is a few notches lower than those. I also regard gameplay as the most important thing, just like you. But obviously it would not hurt to add a brilliant storyline, characters, sidequests, etc, to have it be that much better, and thus make it "perfect" or "over the top". That is my entire point. That's why I stayed up til almost 7 tonight. See what I mean?

So I already talked about FF4.... The reason why Shining Force CD and 3 are above DW3 is that I love the strategy gameplay and the fact that the characters are specific classes just like my other favorite games. Gotta love specific classes. Finally, FF1 was more challenging to me than DW3. I can see why DW3 is your fav. though -- the classes are brilliant. And there are more than FF1.

EDIT: The rest of the FF series is below (and in some cases FAR, FAR below) the DW series to me, fyi. Only two games made it up higher -- and not by much. You can rest assured now that I have faith. I also have faith in level 5's ability to make DQ9.

So,
What is your top 5 of RPGs all-time?

I shall leave the thread tonight with that, and hopefully wake up at 1pm to get sleep! Cya!

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by BurningRanger

1) Worst script ever. I should probably actually say that it's the worst translation ever, though. Take a look at your signature, my friend. What the fuck does any of that even mean? If the "legend" is about Cecil, then I would like to point out that he did not hoist the dark and the light - he abandoned the dark for the light about 5 hours into the game. Also, "arises high up in the sky?" Did no one proofread this? What about the second of this disgusting pair of run-on sentences, where an unknown "it" is mentioned... you know I was actually going to try and deconstruct how foolish this sentence is, but there's not a single word of it that makes any sense. And the sad thing is almost the entire game is like this.

Whoever was placed in charge of translating the game is a damn fool. I don't understand how you're going to tell me the Japanese people who designed the original game are culturally learned enough to name the 4 Mad Gods or whatever they called them in this game (the Fiends of the Elements? whatever) after characters from Dante, but the translator wasn't learned enough to pick up on that? Wow, what a perfect game.

As to your first argument:
"Elder: I do not know what it is nor do I know what the legend means... But we Mysidians, from generation to generation, are told to wish for this legend and to believe in the one with the Sacred Light. Now I am sure that you are
the one!"

You said that the legend makes no sense. Well, if you remember the story as clearly as I do, you'd realize that Elder himself does not know, either. You could not have bitched about the legend if you knew the storyline perfectly. However, you could ask the question, "Why would Elder try to wish for a legend that he doesnt understand?" I might ask you why religion makes any sense anyway. But the fact that Elder & clan are wishing for a person that can save them and to wish for such a person that might match that Legend adds that element of hope to the storyline.

To the second argument here: I could really care less what they call the bosses.

Originally Posted by BurningRanger

2) Gameplay: Active Time Battle was a farce. Once someone's bar was full, you had to move them - you could not skip them to have someone else take a potentially more important turn, such as ressurecting a dead character, first. This feature was added to all subsequent Final Fantasies. It was a glaring omission. There is no case that can be made for it.

The fact that you cannot switch to someone else who is ready for a turn makes the game more challenging. You have to be smart in what you do. Good job, FF4.

Originally Posted by BurningRanger

The lack of customization is not intrinsically a good thing. Yes it means you have to use "Strategy" to beat the bosses. But it also means you have to use one strategy to beat the bosses. This would be like taking a game like Metal Gear Solid and forcing you to play the entire game through the same way every time. One of the things that makes that series brilliant is that you can take several approaches to any situation. Why is forcing you to fight battles in a particular way a more fun way to play?

I'm with Dayvon here. Take FF6 for example. When you start equipping espers and getting massive magic for all the characters in the game, their uniqueness goes down. In FF4, the unique classes have to work as a team in battle to win. Why would I want to see everyone with Meteo spell? If you have most of the spells in FF6 for everyone, you can use Ultima (or anything else that's powerful) and require no strategy whatsoever.

Originally Posted by BurningRanger

3) Graphics. I'm faaar from a graphics whore. But FFIV looks almost no different from FFIII in field screens, and the most major difference in battles is that the backgrounds are now tiled across the whole screen instead of just the top. When you consider the monumental upgrade other NES franchises received on the Super NES, it's criminal that Final Fantasy didn't really get one until FFVI. (At least FFV had a good game backing up its shitty graphics, though.)

Graphics don't dictate which games are the best and not the best. So there's no point in replying here.

Originally Posted by BurningRanger

4)YANG COMES BACK
CID COMES BACK
PALOM & POROM COME BACK
Yes, behold the emotional gravity of this game's plot events! Behold as significant occurence after significiant occurence is completely nullified by the writer's lack of ability to come up with a reasonable plot device!

What is wrong with them coming back? First of all, YANG DID NOT SURVIVE THAT EXPLOSION. Second of all, CID DID NOT SURVIVE THAT FALL FROM THE OVERWORLD INTO THE UNDERWORLD. Can you understand how completely asinine that is without an explanation being required? Next, their return to health completely nullifies their sacrifice, because they didn't sacrifice anything.

I am with Dayvon on his earlier points. Further, the fact that these characters are willing to do these things makes them heroes no matter the outcome. Also, Cid and Yang did not come close to being healthy after the events. Yang was out for a long time and the Sylph helped him recover. Who is to say that Sylph is not the sole reason for his surviving the explosion? Check it out:

"Yang: Sylph saved me when I was in trouble."

Again, my memory of the script has helped again. (and finding the exact quote on the net for clarity).

As for the Cid case, you would expect the Dwarf Castle to pay attention to what is going on around them. Afterall, they are the leading super power of the underground with their own tanks and army. Although there is no proof in the main script, who is to say that some dwarves did not rescue him?

Lastly, if some guy was a private in the army and was ordered to run into a building alone that contained 5 suspected terrorists because he was the last chance for victory, knowing the incredible risk, and he came out alive would he not be a hero because he survived or would he only be a hero because he killed the 5 terrorists and died in the process?

Originally Posted by BurningRanger

It's completely grammatically correct, so it isn't an issue of being "compared to the Japanese version." It's just stupidly written.

The plot is perfect. The characterization is perfect. Regardless of some of the grammar, it is the best storyline in a game I have ever read. And it is not yours. The end.

Please look at post #34 on page 2 of this thread to see some of my points about the other versions of FF4. The part in there where I compare the same scene from all three versions of the game shows that I'm comparing emotion and not grammar. So keep that in mind.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Any disagreements with my post there, Ranger?

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Megavolt

Honestly, what inspired Yang to suddenly choose suicide for saving the party when he has a wife and country to consider? I never much bought the Cecil/Kain relationship either. I can't believe that Cecil would foolishly keep taking Kain back in after being betrayed not once, but twice. It was obvious that Kain was jealous of Cecil and Rosa's relationship and yet Cecil turns a blind eye to that. Kain is like the earliest form of the Square angsty villain and anti-hero, which wouldn't be handled right until Magus. And speaking of Rosa, that woman had the personality of a roof shingle. If not for being Cecil's girl, she'd contribute nothing to the story. That's why everyone likes Rydia whereas Rosa is just there.

How many times do I have to tell you people if you read FF4 close enough, you might understand that most of these actions did not mean immediate suicide. The characters themselves had no idea it would be suicide. They were only focused on saving the day by any means possible. Tellah was the only person who knew using meteo meant death. AND: If a person takes a huge risk for a noble cause it does not mean they aren't heroes for doing it and living.

Just because Blank was petrified in FF9 does not mean he is completely unrecoverable forever.

The only certain death was Tellah because he died before our eyes.

Yang's situation was explained when he said:
Yang: Sylph saved me when I was in trouble.

The twins' situation was explained when they said:
Porom: Our Elder removed our petrification.

And about what you said about Yang: He chose to save the day. Not chose blind death. Further, read:
----------------------------
Dr. Lugae: Ha ha ha! This Tower of Bab-il connects the ground and underground. Rubicant has already moved all the crystals to the upper world! And I shall annihilate the dwarves with my Super Cannon! Ha-hah-hah!
Rydia: Dwarves are in danger!
Yang: We must stop the Super Cannon!
Kain: We must destroy it!
Cecil: Yang!
Rosa: What are you doing?
Yang: I'll take care of this! Go on, escape!
----------------------------
Not only did you say he chose suicide, but you said "for saving the party". That's wrong. He meant to save the entire castle of dwarves..... which was the whole point of the super cannon being built.

Next, what you said about the relationship between Cecil & Kain:
----------------------------
Kain: Cecil! What have I done?
Cecil: Not your fault. You've been hypnotized.
Valvalis: Kain, you betrayed us!
Kain: I did not betray but came to my senses!
----------------------------
I mean... do you understand FF4 at all? Do you understand that Kain was taken over because he is a dark soul? Do you understand that Kain was on Mt. Ordeals during the ending sequences (with his helmet off) because he started a quest to rid of that dark side and to find out who he is?
Kain does not trade sides by his own will. With a clear mind, he is fully on Cecil's side. And what do you mean Kain was jealous of Cecil & Rosa?

Lastly, what you said about Rosa, I agree that she was not at all the best character of characters, but her role was needed because she was kidnapped. It added more drama to the story.

And, does this not at least add some characterization to her? ---
----------------------------
Cecil: Rosa and Rydia will get off here. The rest of us will go to the moon.
It's too risky. There is no guarantee of safe return this time.
Rosa: Cecil!
Rydia: What!?
Cecil: Come on. Get off the Big Whale.
(They head to the moon.
Rosa and Rydia have been hiding the entire journey. They pop out as Cecil is
about to disembark.)
Cecil: Get out of my way.
Rosa: No! I won't unless you take me with you.
Cecil: Don't be silly.
Rosa: I don't care how dangerous it will be! I don't care as long as I can be
with you!
Cecil: Rosa...
Kain: Take her, Cecil,
Edge: Come on, man!
Cecil: Okay, Rosa... Whatever happens... I'll protect you!

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I see you have used a little different translation... the GBA one I believe?

I analyze FF4 personalities and storyline a little different in each of the versions.

To reply to the first point about Yang:
He didn't volunteer to purposely take the brunt of an explosion. He knew it was dangerous and he volunteered to destroy the super cannon. So, although you may think death is always a guaranteed thing in a room that is on fire, the fact is, there was not enough storyline written to explain what happened in the room. There was also not enough storyline to explain what happened to Cid after he fell. The main focus of the game stayed on Cecil. It still remains my favorite video game storyline of all time, even if I hereby concede those few lacks of explanation. But that is all I concede. That there was not enough information in a few parts of the game. But have you ever seen a movie or show in your life that explains every last comment and goes off on wild tangents to make sure to fill every back story possible? No. FF4 should have done a little more on those points that I concede. I will not agree that the actions of characters meant guaranteed death. There is minimal information to conclude their exact reasons for survival. So that means it is left to my imagination to figure why Yang survived. Perhaps Sylph was at the right place and time to save him. For Cid, perhaps the dwarves witnessed the situation and got to him in time.

As to this:
"Kain: But I was still aware. Yet... Rosa...I wanted to keep you close at any cost!"

I'm not 100% sure that he is attracted to Rosa because he said that. I have analyzed the comment "close" meaning "close by because deep down I didn't want you to be hurt". But I definitely know what you mean by your comment "watch Kain's reactions at certain points.".... sometimes he looks down at the ground during emotional scenes between Cecil and Rosa. But I really don't know what to say about it. It's definitely like watching a movie. FF4 is absolutely brilliant in how they do these things all the time.

Also, you said "He shouldn't be a hero." I never said Kain should be a hero. He wasn't one of the people that I thought should be one. Perhaps he helped to redeem himself by helping to defeat the primary enemy of the game.

Also, read:
"Kain: His majesty wanted to wipe out the Callers of this village and used us to do it."
...and...
Cecil: Forget it! Never again will I follow such an order!
Kain: Well, Cecil. I knew you'd say so. I won't let you do it alone.

We are arguing over two completely different versions of a storyline where they say different things during the same scene. This is why I like the FF2 USA best. I can forgive some bad grammar and at the same time have something much better than other versions.

Lastly, to the comments about Rosa & Rydia being told to stay behind: There is a difference between the danger they faced on Earth compared to the danger from the moon (in their minds). It could be a one way trip. Cecil loves Rosa enough that he would not want harm to come to her. And Rydia is obviously still young.

"Rosa: I don't care how dangerous it will be! I don't care as long as I can be with you!"
This line develops Rosa's character after Rydia and her hide during the trip. So Rosa is not like a roof shingle.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I made my edit to my previous post. Read it Had to finish typing more after dinner. It's done now. This post will be to reply to Ranger....

Originally Posted by GoldfishX

Please learn the difference between nitpicking and criticizing. Anything can be nitpicked to death by any person at any time with minimal effort to try to force a point. If you want to use that logic, no game is perfect to you. It's not particularly hard to nitpick things to death. Even my favorite games, I can find plenty to nitpick on. RPG's are probably the easiest genre to find fault with because they have a lot more aspects than a straight action game or arcade game would. I haven't read one thing you've said about FFIV that would lessen my own enjoyment of it and that I wasn't aware of already (and I'm sure its' fans are well aware of). You say the battle system and the script have flaws...Compared to the majority of RPG's I play, I much prefer what FFIV offers in those two areas. Glitch? Don't trigger it and it isn't an issue. It's never been an issue with me. Graphics? They look fine to me, considering the system...Maybe you just expect something different. Taking hardware into account, I think FFIV looks better than FF7-9.

You've already proved FFIV isn't perfect to yourself. If you're going to "prove" FFIV isn't perfect to someone else, please do it in a convincing manner...That's a lot harder to do than nitpicking or "whining" about it.

Thank you for saving me some time to explain this to him. Mainly the nitpicking parts. I wonder how many minor flaws his favorite games have. Or he is too picky about calling something "perfect" that he has not ever done so in his life?

Also, when I speak of a perfect game, I want it to be flawless in these GENERAL areas:

The fun I get from gameplay.
The intensity I get from storylines.
Well-fit music for the scene or place.

Not: "Oh no! A misplaced pixel! Wrong grammar usage on a couple words!"

If you have read my previous post, you would see what they are trying to do to Kain's character compared to what is was in my favorite script. The remade scripts change far too much. I don't care if their sentences are structured well. I'm looking for an accurate-to-the-storyline script.

"Kain: Damn... I was afraid you'd say that. Well, I can't kill you, so I
might as well join you." <-- that is the most retarded thing I've ever read.

I would rather have this be said (similar to the SNES USA version, but I purposely made it grammatically worse to get my point across):

"Kain: Well Cecil, I knew youd say so. I wont let you do it alone."

Further:
"Cecil: We do not understand the meaning of taking crystals away from honest people.
King: Disobeying me?
Cecil: No, I don't.
King: We do know of your discontent, Cecil. If you cannot trust me, I can no
longer place the Red Wings in your command. You are dismissed from your post!"

Because I obviously love FF4 so much, I envisioned this as Cecil being interrupted by the King after he said "I don't." They should have added more periods to make it: "I don't..." So obviously when we watch movies, shows and video games we pretend the moment is real. So I had no choice but to pretend that it was an interruption because it's the only logical explanation.
PLEASE do not reply to this paragraph with 80 more grammar mistakes. Most of them are not important to me.

Next: About your Star Wars comment... What about when somebody is mentioned in Star Wars like a character that has not been seen. The movie will not take 100 hours to explain every moment of every sentence of every line or else you'd have a boring movie. But this argument is done because I already admitted that FF4 should have done a little more to explain a few side things. But the main plot & characterization is still perfect. The best I've seen in a game.

As to your most recent post with the Zemus screenshot in it: All I can say to try to wrap it up is that you are not willing to forgive anything that FF4 does wrong. You also do not come close to liking FF4 in general compared to some of us here. So why even talk about this game at all?

You don't see me going over any single one of the 1000 games I find crappy.

Perhaps you "called bullshit on me" in your first post because you were astounded by my pick of which version of FF4 was the best?

Well, it is as simple as: Two of them botch some of the characters & emotion of the game to me and the other retains it. It all comes down to my preference. What does it matter to anyone else but me?

Goldfish: Fully agreed with your post above this one.

There's nowhere I can't reach.