Holocaust Deniers Gather in Iran

When a debate can't take place somewhere, it usually ends up taking place elsewhere. Same fucking thing, except you don't have any control over it anymore.

Denying Holocaust is a crime in my country. You can't even publish a book hinting at it. What this means to me is that having an objective point of view on that topic is impossible.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Rock

What do you mean by having an objective point of view on that topic? It's a fact that the holocaust happened. The only alternative point of view would be denial.

lol, manicheism.

I don't even want to enter the debate itself as, again, both you and I have only one voice telling us what happened and how. I'm just saying the fact the "what" and "how" are not arguable makes our Democratic countries look bad. I wish we could just leave all history to historians.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Rock

I still refuse to see how denying the holocaust is synomymous to an objective point of view.

I just said that the fact it is forbidden to have any stance differing from the official one on this issue is indeed damaging the objectivity any intellectually honest person could have on said issue.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Hachifusa

niki, I understand what you're saying, and I don't think that it should be illegal for anyone anywhere to be as loud as they want to discount the Holocaust.

But that's so besides the point now. Do you actually believe that the Holocaust didn't happen?

How is that beside the point?

And if I have to fucking write it for you brain rapists: No, I don't think the Holocaust didn't happen.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by BigHairyFeet

What facts or evidence are you basing your numbers on? To me, you sound like someone who hasn't even read into the death camps. You're just putting out vague assertions that aren't backed up with some sort of fact, so read a bit. I'd have to take up what you're saying when you doubt the horror of the holocaust. How can you refute thousands of eye witness accounts from the countries involved, from soldiers, from survivors, and from documentation recovered from the camps, including books which listed inmates who had died (the numbers branded to their arms were recorded), and from gas, a bullet, typhus, etc.?

This is what I find most disturbing:

There could be a huge conspiracy involving more than one million soldiers. There could be corruption and coverups going up all the way to the presidential level. There could be millions of forged documents, and camps built for show. Millions of people could have been spirited away from their homes by these governments, murdered, piled into heaps inside "gas chambers", photographed, and then burned, or lined up above the mass grave they'd just finished digging and been shot in the head, to save them the trouble of lifting you up. There could be thousands of "survivors" (really actors), being paid large sums of money by the Russians and Americans and Poles to lie to the world.

That [i]is[/is] what you're saying, I hope you realize. Do you honestly believe what you're saying sir? You're not just doubting the mountains of evidence, you are discrediting humanity. After seeing what they saw, soldiers, officers, survivors, photographers...who would want to let it be discussed? Who would want some fucking neo-Nazis 60 years later trying to discount what those men and prisoners saw with their own eyes?

You see, that's the problem with the Holocaust topic. Most people can't talk about it without raising their voice, throwing big words like "humanity" and calling anyone not just politely acknowledging the whole thing a neo-nazi.

I'm just talking about the end of you post, btw. The rest are absolutely legitimate questions. I will just answer that the fact CryHavoc has actually researched a lot matters not in the end, since he's not allowed to have a different theory anyway.

The fact *governments* and not historians had to make laws to basically say "there is the Holocaust that one shall not question, and then there are all those thousands of minor genocides" is what's truly disturbing, if you ask me.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by BigHairyFeet

Some of the more vocal revisionists/deniers, such as David Irving, do point that out, niki. I would believe they were sincere if their efforts were more about raising the profiles of "minor" genocides, and less about lessening the awareness of the Holocaust by giving it another name, or no name at all. It's a ridiculous point to debate, since it's based on the fact that Nazis tried to wipe out a race. Prove they didn't before we rename it.

I don't know if they wanted to wipe an entire race so much as get it out of Europe. Do you? I'm not saying it changes much to the atrocities which took place, but it's still historian material to discuss.

I guess my point of view is exacerbated by the fact I live in a country where people like this David Irving aren't even allowed to exist. When an historical issue arises, usually by someone writing a book, what happens? People write other books, opposing facts to facts and detailing their sources. That's how it supposed to work in any non-dictatorial country.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by BigHairyFeet

The last quote demonstrates how Hitler's desire to drive the Jews out of Germany was his first goal; his second goal (extermination of all Jews), just began in Europe (obviously), and would have extended to the countries he mentioned once he controlled Europe.
Your position is very difficult to maintain when there's literally dozens of quotes by Hitler or his top henchmen regarding the destruction of the worlds Jews.

My position? It is common historical knowledge that the Nazis had deportation plans before coming up with extermination ones.

Besides, and if I haven't made it clear already (sigh), my position in this thread is not to question historical facts concerning the Holocaust, but the way the issue is dealt with by governments and the reasons why it has to come to such extremes that such a meeting has to take place where it has.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Rock

Would you rather have this gathering of Holocaust deniers take place somewhere in Europe?

Do you seriously believe the participants of this meeting to have "objective opinions" on the subject? It's a political instrument for Ahmadinejad and a welcome opportunity for extremists to spread their Antizionist and Neonazi propaganda.

No shit. Fucking read what I say, for Christ' sake. This is becoming tiresome.

Originally Posted by niki

Besides, and if I haven't made it clear already (sigh), my position in this thread is not to question historical facts concerning the Holocaust, but the way the issue is dealt with by governments and the reasons why it has to come to such extremes that such a meeting has to take place where it has.

So no, I would'nt wish those people to have their little circle-jerk conference in Europe. What I would want though, is that we don't add fuel to their fire and don't give them an excuse for gathering together because we don't let them have an opinion.

Let them speak, like any free citizen is free to, and have a horde of historian destroy all they write by opposing cold solid facts, and not some stinky censorship law.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by BigHairyFeet

I think the quote from the Nuremberg trials demonstrates what I'm trying to say most eloquently:

"At Auschwitz, where was God?"

"Where was man?"

Where was God during the Rwandan genocide? Where was man during the Cambodian one? I don't see laws for those, and the thousand others like them. How horrible must it get so you get your own little law? Did the victims of those genocides suffer less than the Holocaust's one?

You don't have to answer those questions, but you get my point.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

HOLD ON, THREAD

This is becoming a bit too much about DENYERS VS THE WORLD OF JUSTICE. Here's an important point out friend Ulysses rose for us just a page away:

Originally Posted by Ulysses

I heard an Iranian ambassador say something along the lines of "We are testing the belief that the Holocaust occurred, and that if it did, exactly how many jews died in it's duration." So they aren't denying that it occurred outright, because otherwise they wouldn't entertain the possibility that it did in fact happen. I think they are contesting the figures too. People never seem to recall the huge numbers of gypsies, homosexuals, africans and other ethnicities that also perished in the death-camps.

Just to try to make you thick heads realize the fact you can question something without denying it.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by BigHairyFeet

I get your point. Your point is: how in the world does this thing keep happening, right? That's why we have laws against racism, to prevent slavery from happening all over the U.S again. Instead there's alot of racial tension, but African Americans are a hell of alot better off now. Don't you see then, that essentially, by cheapening the events of the 1940s, you are allowing stuff to start seeping through the cracks? Resurgence of nazi symbols in germany, allowing the Holocaust to be debated--its like a rotting ceiling that's starting to crack and flake away.

So we take lessons from our buddy Staline and limit free speech? Swell.

I don't think it's how you settle things on long term, no.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Cyrus XIII

Ok, since we're going back to page one, do I have to quote my own entry as well? (As it was written in reply to that notion, among other things.)

Sorry, I actually totally missed your post from the beginning. It's actually quite revealing of what nonsense this whole debate is, since no one actually knows what he's talking about. No one can define the exact laws towards Holocaust of all countries, nor can anyone tell what this conference actually is and what's actually been discussed in it, since we don't have transcripts. I'm withdrawing for now, anyway. (zzz)

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?