The end of faith.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

But suffice it to say, labeling me a neo-conservative because of my opposition to a fundamental sect of a religion which supports violence is ludicrous.

It isn't opposition to a fundamental sect of a religion that makes you a neoconservative. Rather, it's the fact that you think you know what should be done to make a perfect world, and that you think it is someone's duty (presumably ours) to do what it takes to make the perfect world a reality, regardless of what that is, or what anybody else feels about it.

This is precisely the mindset the Jacobins had in exporting the French Revolution to the rest of Europe, the mindset of the Bolsheviks in exporting Communism to the world, and the mindset that fuels the neoconservatives in exporting democracy today.

And, ironically, it's all based on the faith that your idea is the right idea.

Furthermore, you mentioned earlier a poll of people in the Middle East who feel it is alright to attack civilian targets to defend Islam. This is interesting, since your opening post singles out Islam as a religion that needs to be eliminated. Not any particular sect, mind you, but Islam itself. You further go on to say that we should subvert Islam to serve the ends of making your utopia. Understandibly, this isn't something Muslims would take kindly to, moderate or radical, and they would be expected to respond violently, especially considering how radical Muslims have reacted to many smaller cultural intrusions.

Yet you want to inflame the Muslim world by attacking Islam directly and attempting to destroy it.

Of course, it would ultimately serve to bolster your argument that Islam is ignorant and warlike, that we need to destroy it, and liberate the Muslim peoples' minds from their irrational beliefs.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

My perfect world doesn't hinge on faith based principles, only factually supported evidence, so it's of little consequence that my claims are my claims because I would not be determining universal morality, the rational world would.

However, you consider the idea of faith to be an impediment to the creation of your perfect world. Therefore, faith must be eliminated.

Just like the Ancien Régime and the Bourgeoisie did.

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And I've related many times now that the majority of Muslims in the middle east are fundamentalists, as the survey goes to show, and that fundamentalists are who I have the biggest beef with. Those in the survey who were OK with suicide bombing civilian targets all go into my fundamentalist category, and those who don't go into the moderate category, in general.

Perhaps you need to understand just how important the Islamic faith is to Muslims. Many Muslims who are otherwise moderate would become violent if their faith itself were to come under attack, and would use any means necessary to defend it.

Much like how the United States would, without a flinch, incinerate many millions of people in nuclear fire if we were seriously threatened with annihilation.

This will, of course, let you twist the results of your cited poll as much as you like to paint the Muslims of the Middle East as a stupid and warlike bunch, and their religion as one we need to destroy for their own good as well as ours.

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And yes, I call for subverting Islam, but from within by supporting moderate Islam so there's no visible American influence. What's your point?

That subversion of Islam, particularly in the context that you've talked of what needs to be done with faith generally in this thread, can only mean in the destruction of Islam.

Contrary to your apparent belief otherwise, Muslims aren't stupid, and they'd see it for exactly what it is. And would fight it. To the death.

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I've specifically said I directed my arguments for Islamic revolution towards fundamental Islam many times in my post. I don't know how you're coming to the conclusion that I'm attacking the entire religion. I'm attacking fundamental Islam as something that needs done soon, and I'm attacking faith as something that needs done whenever it can possibly be accomplished.

You're attacking the entire religion by saying it in particular needs to be removed, preferably by subverting it from within, but I don't think you'll much object to how its done. You're attacking the entire religion by saying that all faiths need to be eliminated. One way or another, if you had your way, the Islamic faith would cease to exist, whether the people who follow it want it to cease to be or not.

Don't try to bullshit me, you wannabe revolutionary.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

The premise is hardly similar considering my fight is leveled against faith-based, irrational, unobservable claims.

It doesn't matter what your fight is against; what matters is that you are, like the Jacobins, Bolsheviks and Neoconservatives before you, championing a revolutionary ideology and seeking to export it to the world. Like them, the impartation of this ideology requires the destruction of something else to work, in this case the idea of faith.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

And what rational would they use to become violent? That their religion all of us a sudden supports violence in this case? This demonstrates the degree to which religion can say whatever the hell it wants and get away with it under the guise of being substantiated by higher powers. And just the same, I didn't call for an attack on moderate Islam, I called for the revolutionizing of fundamental Islam into moderate Islam, which would hardly be considered an attack on moderate Islam

You don't get it, do you?

You are trying to tell people what to believe, and that their beliefs are irrational and must be swept aside. People have been fighting to protect what is important to them, whether that is their homes, their homeland, their ideology, or their faith.

Why would moderate Islam become violent in the face of your attempt to subvert it into something you deem more "rational"? The answer is simple; their faith is important to them, and you're trying to take it away from them.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

Attacking the idea of faith is hardly equivalent of attacking people themselves.

Your attack goes beyond merely attacking the idea of faith; you also seek to attack the institutions of faith.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

I call for the subversion of fundamental Islam and then the destruction of faith itself.

Originally Posted by FallDragon, earlier in the thread

There could be many methods to turning the Arab culture into a moderate secular society by way of religious doctrine. Start with the more moderate countries to begin with, and start up religious campaigns for moderate Islam and try to work it into the core of their beliefs. Yes, this is basically hijacking their religion to turn it into a secular, rational based one, but that's fine with me. If we can twist their fairy tales into ones that don't justify murder so easily, just as we've twisted our own, all for the better.

I already told you once about trying to bullshit me.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Allow me to take a step back from the abyss and note how this thread has given us nothing productive, and is degenerating fast.

For the good of everyone, this is closed. Pointlessly bickering about religion and FallDragon's evangelizing for his new Cult of Reason is to take place somewhere else where I don't have to deal with it.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?