Why not legalize prostitution?

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Man, my father recently found out that my one of my most-desired professions was "madam." He kind of flipped.

I don't see why it's not legalized like it is at the Bunny Ranches out there in Nevada. I mean, at least the girls would be there voluntarily as employees, they'd be checked regularly with their health, and they'd be providing a completely valid service to people.

While I know this all my contradict what I normally say (as my sister often points out), I think the legalization of prostitution would provide safer, healthier work environments.

Let's face it. It's the "oldest profession" known to man - it's not going to disappear if we outlaw it. The conditions in which the person (man or woman, really) works will only become more black market and more dangerous to the individual who is arguably forced into that profession.

(I do know that a lot of women do it because they want to - they should have that option as an American, if you ask me)

The conditions for these people would be a lot better if the authority legalized it - and to me, that's more important than the morality of the profession.

Deni once said that morality should never be... how did he say... governed? At least in a free society.

Besides - the hoes don't hurt anyone. Sure, they may indirectly ruin a marriage or break up a family - but that wasn't their choice. It's the customer's choice to pay money for sexual trade.

At least you know your husband is clean when he comes home and sleeps with you after banging a legal hoe.

I think it was morality should never be legislated. But yeah, I'm with you on this one. Surprise, surprise. It cuts down on crime, it cuts down on STDs, it cuts down on abuse of women. There's an endless stream of interesting reasons to do this. In Sweden there are women who specialize in people who have social phobias, or are in mourning at the loss of a wife, or have had traumatic sexual experiences. They have degrees in psychoanalysis, or psychiatry and they use sex as a therapeutic method of treatment. Some really interesting things that come about when you get past the factor of "you're paying someone to fuck them." The only reason for it to be illegal is because it makes people feel yucky, like outlawing gay marriage. It's a stupid law with no upside to it. Hell, economics alone, think of how much money you can rake in if you actually tax cunt.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

You can tax every ol' piece of the human body if it's legal. Hell, tax fisting. Tax it all. Get you some socialized health care to pay for the surgery to repair the vaginal tearing and tax double-fisting. It's all good now, kids.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

In hiding after 2 infractions, likely.

Where have you kids been? That guy got the heave ho for trolling and advertising.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

You do all realise Watts is trolling you, right? No one actually believes this sort of idiocy. Messing with man essence? He's doing Dr. Strangelove. He knows as well as anyone that the only real objection to this concept is the moral one. Holland has much lower STD rates than the US, lower sex crime rate, etc. It's all there for anyone who takes the time to look at the statistics. They can regulate porn stars for disease, they can regulate prostitutes very, very easily. And patenting sex? Come on, that idea is so fucking infantile it can't be anything but baiting. This is why he got the joke nom for best debater. I mean, harder to regulate moving people with rides and amusements? They call that a circus. And they do it all the time. Why are we even giving him the time of day? Either he's trolling or he's so stupid he isn't worth it.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Nothing should ever change, no matter what the proof is for it being a logical, proven step, because the boat might be rocked? The point of changing the status quo is because the boat -needs- to be rocked. We're not talking morals, we're talking legality. As always, Watts, you're arguing semantics to obfuscate a lack of actual substance. You are either a complete idiot or a world class political troll.

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Originally Posted by Bradylama

Yeah, this is going to be the point where most people are going to have to disagree with you, since most people don't think that our government should be playing nanny for adults.

This also doesn't account for why, necessarily, prostitution is a bad decision. With social and economic opportunities being the way they are for many people it can actually be the best decision, pimps and all. Are conservatives like you willing to give people the relief to keep them from turning tricks?

In a free country, you can't legislate morality. Period. The man raised the point when he said we don't need the government playing nanny. You know what we especially don't need? The government playing moralistic measuring stick. You want to do anal? Fuck you, go do it. You want to shit on your partner's chest? Go for it. But I don't want to see it. This is the same sort of problem as gay marriage. People don't like it because it makes them feel all icky. Well you know what? That's -your- problem. Your sexual hang-ups are not good reasons for trying to make the bedroom under government control.

Prostitution is just something that makes straight laced people uncomfortable. Too bad. That's not a good enough reason.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by killerpineapple

While a host of other reasons have come up, the most powerful argument I stand beside when countering legalized prostitution is the moral basis. Obviously I'm going to automatically stand at odds with those who don't feel that government shouldn't regulate morality. It is indeed a free country. Nevertheless, laws do exist that regulate morality.

If your country legislates morality, then no it isn't. I know you're going to go with things like drinking and driving, but that's a matter of public safety, not morality. You can get as drunk as you want, you just can't endanger people while doing it. Legalised prostitution decreases risk, it doesn't increase it. When a country legislates morality, it isn't free. I'm not saying it's a police state, but it sure the fuck isn't a free country.

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I can't really compare prostitution to gay marriage, anal sex, and um...colorful sexual habits. Totally separate issues that need to be handled as such, if they even need to be addressed in the first place.

How are they separate? Wanting to pay for sex can be considered a vice right up there with sadism, and I promise you, if your government ever tried to take that away from me, I'd vote from the rooftops. (see? Deliberately exaggerating there. To make a point.)

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But you're right Deni, being merely 'uncomfortable' isn't enough of a reason to enact policy. The effect prostitution has on people (in my opinion) is damaging to them on a physical and mental level. This damage extends beyond the two people involved and begins to affect others. There is abuse associated with prostitution and after a little research I realized that legalizing it won't automatically solve those problems.

The bad effects of prostitution are largely attributed to the fact that woman are often trapped into this position, deliberately kept in poverty and a sort of slavery so they can never escape the lifestyle. Ask prostitutes in Holland how taxing mentally their job is. Also, you're lying with statistics here. It's the circumstance, not the act that is responsible for it. There's a dude at NYU named Don Kulick who does a lot of research with this stuff. He's written a few books on it, Taboo and Transvesti being the most applicable here. And no, legalizing anything doesn't complete solve any of the risk involved. There's a risk to getting on a carnival ride, you want to outlaw those, too? What it does is make it controlled, it MINIMIZES the risk. And trust me, the stats on violent crime during prostitution go WAAAAAY down when it's legalized, like, 95% down.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Soluzar

I'll leave it to Deni from now because I know he can pull this off better than I can.

Ok.

Originally Posted by killerpineapple

Hey guys,

Soluzar: Gee I guess it depends on what you consider morality issues. Prostitution certainly qualifies as one for me. Here's more, some allowed by law, other not so much: suicide, drug use, statutory rape, public indecency, abortion, slander/libel, FCC guidelines, animal testing, racism, fur industry, gay marriage.

Suicide is not a moral law. And the law against suicide is laughable. It shouldn't be on the books at all. "Try and kill yourself? Fined!"

Drug use is illegal for many reasons, however, a large majority of drug laws are moral ones, and they're stupid and shouldn't exist either. See: Holland. Legalize drug use, reduce drug crime and the problems associated with drug addiction.

Statutory rape: Is usually based on the concept of being of sound mind to consent. Age of consent in Canada is 14. Every 15 year old I've ever met has been smart enough to understand the ramifications of sex. People who say a 17 year old fucking a 22 year old is somehow immoral are hilariously fooling themselves. As if that 17 year old doesn't know what they're doing.

Public indecency says what you can't do in a public forum, not what you can't do, period. I'm not saying people should be allowed to hire a prostitute and get a blowjob in the city square. Privacy of their own bedroom etc.

abortion should never be illegal. Ever. It's fucking insulting to women to say you have a right over what they can do with their body.

Slander/libel just says you can't LIE about someone in a damaging way. If they stole from a company, and you can prove they did it, it isn't slander.

FCC is a joke. That IS legislating morality. The only thing that should decide what is fit for the ears of the public is the public. Don't like it? Turn it off.

Animal testing is more about cruelty than a right to anything. It stops undue suffering, not unlike abolishing the guillotine.

Racism isn't illegal. Inciting people to murder someone because of racism is. Huge difference.

Fur industry isn't illegal, it's just rejected by a large section of society. People can choose not to purchase anything they want. They're free to that right.

Gay marriage is the same thing. They legislated morality, something they have no right to do.

A free country doesn't legislate morality, it legislates the state. Stay out of the bedrooms of the people.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Look, what this is going to come down to is that KP believes his morals are more important than freedom of choice. And no amount of arguing is going to change that. He thinks some archaic, non-existent utopia of judeo-christian morality is the key. I say its suffocating and strangles the life out of a man. It's never going to get worked out, though. Because you can't convince him with logic, and he can't convince us with belief.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by killerpineapple

Wait a sec? We all know prostitution is undesirable.

Wait, we do? Because I think the large majority of us here are saying there's nothing wrong with is.

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I'd be a hypocrite if I condoned an action that I knew was wrong.

And you'd be a fucking ignorant prick if you said what is wrong for you is wrong for everyone.

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And the politicians and voters who decided to outlaw prostitution in 49 states didn't do so ONLY because the act hurts the feelings of people not even involved.

No, they did it because they were reactionary and it was a bad decision. These are also the same people who voted for prohibition.

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On the other hand, I'm totally okay with you thinking my stance on prostitution is idiotic if you also believe that all laws that prevent people from doing things that don't directly hurt others are idiotic.

They are. That's the point.

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I'm not sure I trust your instinct that most people who pay strangers for sex are upstanding citizens who have extreme difficultly getting into a loving relationship with a woman. I'd actually like to learn more if you can provide some studies or statistics...but it wouldn't sway my opinion.

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I'd actually like to learn more if you can provide some studies or statistics...but it wouldn't sway my opinion.

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I'd actually like to learn more if you can provide some studies or statistics...but it wouldn't sway my opinion.

Do you even begin to realise how ignorant you sound when you say that? And for the record, go read Four Hundred Thousand Swedish Perverts by Don Kulick for your stats that WON'T SWAY YOUR OPINION, as you've decided BEFORE EVER READING THEM. God, go fuck yourself.

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I'm pretty religious and have a good amount of faith...but it really doesn't seem like I'm coming off as a nice guy in this topic. Perhaps in other circles people perceive me as a nice guy, but that's their perception. I'm not trying to make myself look great compared to other people. Real Christians are a humble sort of folk. Don't let the fake ones ruin it for the rest of us.

You realise that right now, you're the guy ruining it for the rest of them.

How ya doing, buddy?

The stats for rape in Nevada are with very constrained laws concerning prostitution across an entire state wherein the total amount of brothels are seriously constrained in their placement and their usage. Go look up the rape totals in Holland, and then expect us to pay attention to you.

And yes, a lot of us here like game music. But a lot of us have, for instance, a Masters and working towards a phD in the social sciences. Some of us have a degree in law. Some of us have degrees in history.

There should NEVER be an instance wherein your opinion of right and wrong weighs heavily over the people, because you are a self-righteous, moralistic little prick. The point is that no one should mandate sexuality or morality ever. And you disagree with that, because you want people to do things the way you want them done, instead of letting them decide for themselves.

Don't want your daughter sucking cock for money? Raise her so she won't. Welcome to a free country. A law where if that little girl grows up, decides she wants to suck dick for money, and goes to prison for it when she's hurt absolutely no one but her daddy's precious feelings? The laws gird too tightly, sir. You have -no- right to dictate law. And the people who did were overstepping their bounds as governors. But you're right, who are we to know better than law makers?

Oh right, that's the purpose of an informed populace. To question their leaders. If they act in a way unbecoming to our beliefs of what a nation should be, we oust them, have them replaced. The leaders fear the people, not vice versa. The joy of democracy. Some laws are stupid. Up until quite recently a woman couldn't vote, a black man couldn't go to school white men. Should we not have overturned those? Were those just and righteous laws, sir? The men who made those laws were the same men who made laws about prostitution and gay marriage. So again, sir, go fuck your half-witted arguments.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

You don't present good arguments, and you completely miss the point of those of others.

I didn't say individual men created the same laws, I said they were created in the same eras, and yet we overturned them for being stupid. As such, your argument that lawmakers know more than the society they serve is retarded. Your long winded reply makes my point about you, though. You'll make one argument, and then you turn around and think that you can change your argument point because its been proven wrong.

I'm not saying they would 'embrace' anything, I'm saying what I've said all along, a free society does not create laws that legislate morality. Your right to choose your own path, so long as it does not damage others, is absolutely your own choice. That is freedom, as I've held this entire time. But you feel free to keep flailing in your little cage.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Yes, and if the simple concept of freedom that causes no harm to another shall be the law had been in place, slavery never would have existed in the first place.

Again, Watts wanders in, argues apples and oranges and thinks he's made a point. Do you ever get tired of completely missing the strain of an argument, I wonder?

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by norrispang

well , it's possible and reasonable to legalize prostitution not until the business of humantrafficking is exterminated!

Except that legalizing prostitution institutionalizes it and makes it next to impossible to use any sort of illegal women to do the wo- you know what? Why am I rationalizing this to you? Leave.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by RABicle

Actually Deni, I think he might have a fair point. People smuggling is big fucking business in South East Asia (check his timezone.) And this would only increase the demand if say, Australia, legalised prostitution and we're well on our way there.

However I still think it's a poor argument that the existance of people smugglers should stop us from legalising prostitution. If anything an increased rate of illegal women in the country working in a regulated industry could make it easier for authorities to crack down on people smugglers, as their cliental will be more often identified.

He doesn't have a fair point. Illegal smuggling of women for the sex trade is a problem because it isn't checked. If it's legalized, these people have to get T4's, they have to pay taxes. They have to be citizens. Illegally smuggled women used in the sex trade are decidedly not legal citizens. The point of legalizing prostitution is that it eliminates the problems associated with it. Mandatory drug/STD testing, legal citizens etc. So human trafficking is fucking horrific, but it has NOTHING to do with legalizing prostitution, mate.

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Originally Posted by RABicle

I just think you're coming down hard on the kid. I agree with you regarding legalising prostitution but human trafficking is an aspect to it (however minor) and to his credit no one had mentioned it until now.
Can't you just calmly explain to him why he's wrong instead of being flat out rude?

Go check his profile and read the prior posts he made, then you'll see why I reacted to him that way.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Bradylama

All of the arguments are wrong anyways.

Human trafficking is only marginally impacted regardless of legalized prostitution. A black market for sex slaves will always exist.

Arguments are not wrong, you just can't infer meaning to save your life. The point here being that in legalized sex houses, it would be damned hard to use illegally procured Taiwanese girls to service the men, due to the institutionalized nature of it. Human trafficking doesn't stop due to legalized prostitution, but legalizing it sure as hell doesn't have to hinge on the destruction of the sex slave pipe line.



(I can use obnoxious smilies too)

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

Looks like somebody's being serious in the Political Palace.

Your posts seemed to attempt to convey the idea that legalized prostitution would make it harder for human traffickers.

Internets. Serious business. Etc.

Also, yeah, upon re-reading them I can see how it comes across that way. Not what I meant to convey, though. Moreso that legalized prostitution makes it impossible, or at least very difficult, for LEGAL brothels to use cheap mexican sex work labour.

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Originally Posted by Bradylama

There would be little reason for them to do so as well. It's not like a brothel madame is under the same competitive pressures as a bacon dog vendor.

Quite.

I'm trying really hard to formulate a A tastes better than B joke here, but just assume I mad some snarky comment about flavour and product placement and we'll just go on living our lives.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

No, BB. You don't get it. The far liberals know better than you about what demeans you. They're doing this for you. It makes them uneasy, so it MUST make you uneasy. Don't you get it?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by lightsandmusic

because the workers get so many diseases and problems from prostitution. its a very risky buisness and isnt healthy.

You are easily the dumbest person in this thread. And that's saying something.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Starf**kers Inc

That's a silly thing to say, rape is generally a matter of dominance rather than just a need for sex. Hence straight male rapists often rape other guys.

weird system...

Statistically true. So not really silly. Silly is thinking anyone will take you seriously in an actual topic with a name like that.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Tamburlaine

I don't think you understand what I mean by options. But I am gonna let it go because we aren't getting anywhere and not listening to one another.

If you care however, you should watch this video:

YouTube - Noam Chomsky - Noam vs. Michel Foucault (Eng. subs)

You realise most academics think Noam Chomsky is sort of out of his mind these days, yeah? You and KP keep running off at the mouth about things like the plight of the downtrodden woman and the suffering of the poor people being damaged by this. What you are is the victim of a sad, and far too common, problem: You're educated retarded.

You quote a single study and act like you've solved the problem. You're talking social theory, at BEST we're taking shots in the dark as anthropologists and sociologists. A single study is a drop in a bucket of water. Go read Kulick's books on the Brasilian transvesti prostitutes, or Taboo, or his paper on prostitution in Sweden. How about Cauthen's legalizing prostitution work in his ethics? Do you know anything of Sweden's system of selling sex being legal, but buying it being illegal? You know what happened? The prostitutes got pissed.

Why? Because they chose a vocation that was legal, and now the government was meddling in it for their own good. They didn't want the help, but damnit, the moral highground demanded that they save those poor hookers. Who didn't need or want saving.

You want legal systems based on morality. You can't have it. Morality is a personal choice, and if you don't want to fuck for money, from either side of the c-note, then you don't have to. But the fact you want to legislate it so you can feel slightly less icky is so condescending it hurts. Look at how Germany handles legalized prostitution. Do some fucking research on the subject before you start shooting off at the mouth.

You mentioned how cultures react to prostitution. There are whole parts of the world, white man, who don't think sex is a big deal. The idea of sex for money being degrading would be HILARIOUS to a group like the Muinane. It's just sex. It's fun. Move on with your life, True Believer. You don't understand what the social theory says about this because you haven't read it. A large section of the modern world has legalized prostitution, and as you want to keep slapping around the Dutch for shutting down part of the red light district, allow me to educate you: The problem in Holland wasn't the legalized prostitution, it was poorly policed parts of the city dealing in children instead of grown adults. Legalized prostitution is doing very well in Holland, they just closed the places that weren't by the book and hired more inspectors.

Those crazy dutch.

I did some ethnography with prostitutes, and my favourite anecdote was from a Swedish woman. She, along with some 5000 others in her country, was a licensed physical therapist who would have sex with her clients (who were largely disabled or otherwise unable to go out and hire a prostitute themselves) for money, often as a form of therapy. She found an improvement ration in her client's mental state that destroyed prescription drug use. She can't do that anymore with Sweden's new laws. She has a lot of money, many job options, and she chooses to be a prostitute because it's safe in a legalized, and well run environment.

You know why Vegas is a shambles? Because it's one oasis in a desert of intolerance. It's not policed properly and there is no societal structure in place in the US to support a legalized sex industry because of ignorant fucking morallly presumptuous jokes like the two of you. Read some books, get some life experience, and stop thinking your arguments are even remotely valid.

Everyone has the right to an opinion, but unless it's informed, no one is required to take you seriously.

"Fucking is legal. Selling is legal. Why isn't selling fucking legal?"



P.S.

If you think sex is life changing, you haven't had it with more than three people. Just saying.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Tentacle Rapist

Prostitution actually isn't legal in Vegas, but it sure as fuck goes on.

Because come on, it's Vegas. We just call them escorts and look the other way when they start sucking.

Legalized prostitution in certain places, no?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Okay, in my being very tired and overworked by school right now, by Vegas I meant Nevada.

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