Kramer snaps

Originally Posted by Spike

No, I don't understand why the n-word is so bad either as I do not know it's history, but it's obviously incredibly offensive.

So shut the fuck up if you don't know.

Was it funny? Not really. The interrupting the white man line was pretty good, but over all it was pretty fucking unfunny. But that's mostly because Michael Richards is mostly unfunny. However, the black guy did call him a cracker-ass. That's a racial slur too. Someone yell at that ignant ass nigga.

Also, requesting that Balcony Heckler be curbstomped for stealing my Muppets av/sig combo.






You fucking biter.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Spike

Where the hell is this coming from? I wasn't defending Michael Richards. I was saying he was wrong for using the word. I don't understand why you're so upset when it seems that you have the same point of view that I do.

I'm not mad, mate, but if you don't understand the situation, how can you really be a valuable source of information on it?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Snowknight

THE SOUTH WILL RISE AND LOSE AGAIN!!1

Honestly, though, I think that word has been used for too long out of its original context to be offensive.

That's not up to you to decide, mate. That's up to the offended group to decide.

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Originally Posted by Minion

For once, someone says the n-word and black people aren't overracting to it. Probably just circumstantial, though.

Anyway, as stupid as it was for him to say that, it reminds me of how tired I am of the fact that there is a word I can't say but other people can. I really don't care if I can say it or not, since I don't really ever use it verbally or in writing, but I have little tolerance for the double standard grade school bullshit behind it all. If the word evokes such negativity, then no one should use it. You don't see Jews jokingly calling each other Hitler, do you? Maybe that's because it would actually be offensive. Nobody else has a word that they pretend to be offended by so that only they can use their special word. Grow the fuck up already.

Minion, you've never taken a class on gender, race and language have you? There's this whole thing where eventually a sub-group will absorb a word, change it, and take away the power it has. Nigger is in the last throes of that. It will either go the way of Pryor, which is stop using it all together because he realised its very usage has a certain undercurrent of subjugation, or the way of Chris Rock, which is throw it around all the time, make it funny, and then it isn't hurtful. You're wrong about the jewish community, by the way. They took nazi germany and made it a part of their belief of the chosen people being tested constantly. They put it in the same compartment as enslavement in egypt (whether it really happened isn't important, they believe it did) and the current strife in Israel. They don't throw around Hitler, but you best believe jewish comics make JOKES about Hitler. Or about how jews are all controlling the media. Or about how jews are Mel Gibson's personal satan. Every culture does this, mate.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by LeHah

The major difference is that Dane Cook is never, ever funny.

Agreed. The reason he calmly told the guy security would escort him out is that he lacks the wit to shoot the man down. Infantile noises and generally being a jerk-off usually won't silence a heckler.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Minion

With all due respect, that sounds like a lot of mumbo-jumbo. But if the beast is in it's "last throes" as you say, that implies it's death is at least inevitable, if not warranted. I'm just hoping that happens within my lifetime (or next week maybe).

No, it doesn't mean it's death is inevitable. What it means is that the culture has taken the word and toyed with it. Either it will become accepted and part of the social dialogue, or it will be rejected and put on a shelf to never be used again. The point is that we can converse about the word nigger. We can have dialogue about it. We couldn't do that a while back. Not a real discussion, at any rate. The problem is that there are still people who treat words as if they have no power, which is false, or they treat words as if they're the only source of power, which is also false. And sometimes people say things like black people use nigger amongst themselves as a way to personally spite them, as a white man, because you can't use it and they can. That's a whole different sort of animal.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by rocketdog

I think the problem isn't Minion but the fact that you are all kids (and yes I'll name names here, Deni, Lehah, Lurker) and are still moved by words, like nigger. Grow up. Any sophisticated, educated person will be able to take a racial slur, and just brush it aside. You just look down on those people who have to stoop so low... that's about it. You don't take the time to make an argument of it, or to blow it up. Who gives a shit if they are close minded? It's not our job to save ever single damn person. I think Minion is coming from that perspective "above".



Words have power man, but words like this... only move idiots who can be provoked by such childishness.

And you really don't need an education for this stuff unless you grew up in a closed closed closed white town with your parents constantly reminding you of white power. It is legit to make a study of it, and to analyze outcomes of people, but it really is something you develope with personal expereince... and you know it.

But back on topic, if you were heckled by a few black guys I bet you'd have the phrase "fucking niggers" crossing your mind. Mike just had the balls to say it... it's about damn time.

Because Deni certainly isn't known as one of the more offensive members of the board, who often throws around racial slurs for pure amusement. I mean, he certainly doesn't refer to his buddy encephalon as beaner, or kurado as his house boy. That would never happen. The problem with you, Rocketdog, is that at the heart of you, is a very simple little man. You're about black and white. Thus the entry on girls you date and your demand that they're musical.

Of course an educated person can brush aside a racial slur. By the by, walk up to a jewish professor and tell him you think he's a kike and he should burn in an oven. See how fucking funny he thinks you are. I can brush aside a racial slur. I'm white, I'm educated and I can make a point about how words shift constantly, how they don't intrinsically have meaning, but rather they take meaning from webs of understanding dictated by societal pressures.

But I'm not black. I've never had someone spit the word nigger at me in blatant anger. And you know what, when that person chooses a word they know is hateful, and use it in a hateful way? That can be a harsh thing to do. Now, I'm a big proponent of words being words and people needing to be less sensitive, but you know what? Your lack of understanding of any of the modern concepts or theories just proves that education IS needed in it. Not because nigger is the worst thing you can say, but because understanding why other people might think it is... ya, that's sort of important to the debate at hand.

Also, Minion and Rocketdog, I have three years worth of fieldwork behind me, along with years of research. I've dealt with this on the ground, I'm not talking from a textbook. When one of you has worked in the field, doing research on agency and language with different cultures, then you can talk to me about real world experience.

Also, Rocketdog, you are the last person to talk about this subject. We've seen before how your perspective works, and you've managed to talk yourself right out of any valid point. Especially considering neither Lurker, LeHah, or myself said the word nigger was as offensive as these two men are making it out to be. If you don't even understand the basic point, keep your arguments to yourself.

Also, Heckler, stealing as in having the same basic premise. I got tired of people asking me why I'd become retarded in my posting habits, and having to explain that you aren't me. Apparently a moderator did, too.

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Originally Posted by Minion

The thing is, if you're going to make an appeal to authority as an argument (which you're welcome to do if your experience is genuine) that's great, but in order for there to be an actual dialogue in this thread, you need to kind of stoop down to our level and at least give us a the jist of the theory involved. Don't just say you know stuff - explain it. I'd love to hear about it, really. I'm not being the least bit sarcastic.

I sort of touch on it above when I snapped at Rocketdog. But it isn't really the theory that is important, what's important is that they took it as offensive. And you know what, Michael Richards feels as if he was wrong to do it. Did you see his apology? The guy is almost in tears over it. Now, if he was trying to make a point about racial slurs, a la Richard Pryor, I'm sure he'd have been less broken up. He threw out hate. Not words, pure hate. He just happened to use those specific words. What he was trying to do is cut someone with language, so he used the most heated thing he could think of. If this was a commentary on how nigger is an overused slander with no real meaning and the black community needs to lighten up (which I happen to agree with), I'm sure the news reports would be very different.

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Originally Posted by Minion

Yeah, I mean... that's how I feel exactly. I'm just trying to understand how our views differ, if they in fact do.

I don't think you and I have much difference in terms of opinion on this, so much as ways of coming to the conclusion. My issue is with Rocketdog.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I love that they're demanding monetary compensation. That, right there, tells me they're not too broken up about it. They're just using this as an opportunity now. Make the dude make his ammends, say he's sorry... fuck, ask that he's required to do community service in a black neighbourhood. But you want money for being called a nigger? Where's my money for being called a drunk Irish asshole.

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Originally Posted by avanent

thats exactly what there doing... maybe he should counter sue for them ruining his set, blowing this out of proportion, and creating a bad public outlook on him.

No, hecklers are part of comedy. I don't think they blew it out of proportion until they demanded money. Also, I'm willing to bet that Gloria Allred called them, not the other way around. She's a fucking bottom feeder. And you know what caused a bad public outlook of Michael Richards? Screaming nigger in a derogatory way at two people who interrupted his set.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by avanent

they pulled the trigger that set the gun off. Itd be no more ridiculous than them claiming a need for monetary compensation.

I hate hecklers. Had I been there, I'd of told them to shut the hell up. Maybe even used some offensive jargon of my own. Hecklers ruin shows for everyone else because they're selfish and feel that the show should be altered just because they aren't enjoying it. fuck hecklers.

So explain why people can often deal with Hecklers without resorting to yelling racial slurs at people? They pulled the trigger? No they didn't. They might have danced infront of the asshole with the gun and said "shoot me, you unfunny fucker" but they didn't pull the trigger.

Also, I've seen Michael Richards do stand up. He isn't funny. He deserves to be heckled.

And for the last part, Richard Belzer was being heckled at a show once. A man in the audience was talking and said: "where did you get that coat, the discount rack?" Without missing a beat, Belzer looked down and said: "In your mother's vagina, pal. I get all my clothes there. It's like a frickin' warehouse in there." The dude shut the fuck up after that. And you know, not once did Belzer call him a nigger in hate. Don Rickles used to use racial slurs at his audience all the time. Usually when it was Sammy Davis Jr. But you know what, he didn't scream at them and say things like "Fifty years ago, we'd have you hanging upside down with a fork stuck up your ass." That is fucking RACIST, man. He wasn't shooting down hecklers, he was spitting hate at people. There's a way of dealing with people like that, and he chose the wrong way. Keep trying to defend it, though. You've clearly got a strong position here with this "They were being niggers" defence.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by avanent

yes, he did chose the wrong way to deal with it. But its between him and them, not the whole world. They egged him on and he retaliated inappropriately with anger. I'm not defending it, i'm disagreeing with everything else instead of focusing on what way too many people already are.

Ya, he screwed up. Shit happens, its not our business.

It's our business when it happens in a public forum infront of cameras. That's like saying that apartheid isn't our business because we're not African. It wasn't private. It wasn't in the privacy of his den with a fire roaring. It was on stage. Infront of a room full of people.

Again, the monetary thing is bullshit, but the black community being a wee bit fucking incensed by this? Ya, I can see that.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by avanent

difference of opinion.

it wasnt on the streets, it wasn't on tv (it was _put_ on tv, its different), it wasn't within public property.

it was within a private venue. Its a trivial matter within a private location, therefore, imo, its not our buisiness.

See, I have to highly disagree with that. He called someone a nigger in a public room full of people. It isn't private under the law, and it sure as fuck isn't private under social understanding.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by avanent

its a private venue, its private property. its is a private room of people, not public.

It's private property, it's not a private venue. A comedy club, one of the biggest in America, is a public venue.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by avanent

its private domain. That's what allows them to control it as they see fit.

Mate, you walk into any court room in America and tell them what you said on stage in the comedy barn is privilieged because it took place in a private venue. You tell me how that works out.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by avanent

does it make a difference to _you_ either way?

No. I'm not black. Nigger doesn't offend me. Now, were my name Jamaal and I found out Kramer just screamed nigger at two guys in a comedy club, I'd probably want a certain amount of him being held responsible.

And yes, that is what you're saying. You're trying to convince me that a public comedy club is a private place so the media shouldn't be able to make a big deal out of it? He talked about hanging the man upside down and jamming a fork up his ass while calling him a nigger. Ya, that's a big fucking deal. Yes, the media should be reporting on it, yes he should be held accountable, no they shouldn't be asking for money. But again, I'd wager that's Gloria Allred. I think the problem, Av, is that you're not sure what you're arguing here.

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Originally Posted by Avanent

they pulled the trigger that set the gun off. Itd be no more ridiculous than them claiming a need for monetary compensation.

Originally Posted by Avanent

I'm not defending it, i'm just not focusing on what way too many people already are.

Originally Posted by Avanent

You're reading between lines instead of reading the lines.

Originally Posted by Avanent

they pulled the trigger that set the gun off. Itd be no more ridiculous than them claiming a need for monetary compensation.

Originally Posted by Avanent

they [the black men] pulled the trigger that set the gun off. Itd be no more ridiculous than them claiming a need for monetary compensation.

But you're not defending Michael Richards. Okay.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by avanent

indirectly stating his imperfection and fallibility at the least.


indirectly stating he fucked up


indirectly stating _someone_ should make sure he is held accountable.


Just because I don't hark and rant on how he screwed up, doesn't mean I'm defending him.

Originally Posted by Avanent

You're reading between lines instead of reading the lines.

So I should only read you literally when you desire to be read literally, but I'm wrong when I read between the lines as well as when I just read what you say at its face value.

Ya, Devo, don't bother. Ava's sort of been debunked as not knowing anything of his own position at this point.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by avanent

BTW, not going to bother replying anymore, your just reading whatever you want into everything.

Originally Posted by avanent

deni, within and between are different.

So, which line was I to read between, or within, to find out how "not going to reply" really means "well, maybe one more time."

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by avanent

does that make you feel special?

Only when I can use your own words to hamper your credibility and show that you're just using words, not truly understanding them.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by avanent

The easiest way to kill something is through neglect.

I hear the easiest way to kill something is to put it in a burlap sack and drown it.

...maybe that's just puppies.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by ArrowHead

Shut. The. Fuck. Up.

Both of you.

As far as I'm concerned this is all ridiculous. Only in America do you see this sort of stupidity - Americans are way too fucking sensitive about black people.

Yeah, Michael Richards made a big idiot of himself. But stop acting as if he's a closet KKK leader or something.

Oh ya, only in America. When's the last time a bunch of black people had a standoff with police over land rights, Arrow? Oh right, that was us. In Canada. With natives. GLASS HOUSE. ROCKS EVERYWHERE.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by LeHah

BLACK PEOPLE BREATHE IN WATER. Didn't your parents ever teach you they only die from fire?!

Fire? I know they can sustain themselves on watermelon, fried chicken and sweet potato pie for years, but I have no idea they'd adapted GILLS.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by LeHah

It's a side effect from their culture drinking so much malt liquor. Kinda like how white people turn into the Hulk when exposed to Gamma Radiation.

Oh, ok. So it's the fault of the Colt 45.

Jam it back in, in the dark.