Gamingforce Interactive Forums
85242 35212

Go Back   Exploding Garrmondo Weiner Interactive Swiss Army Penis > Garrmondo Entertainment > Media Centre
Register FAQ GFWiki Community Donate Arcade ChocoJournal Calendar

Notices

Welcome to the Exploding Garrmondo Weiner Interactive Swiss Army Penis.
GFF is a community of gaming and music enthusiasts. We have a team of dedicated moderators, constant member-organized activities, and plenty of custom features, including our unique journal system. If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ or our GFWiki. You will have to register before you can post. Membership is completely free (and gets rid of the pesky advertisement unit underneath this message).


View Poll Results: What was your Favourite Star Trek Series
The Original Series 3 5.66%
The Next Generation 24 45.28%
Deep Space Nine 17 32.08%
Voyager 8 15.09%
Enterprise 1 1.89%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

Star Trek Favourite Series
Reply
 
Thread Tools
No. Hard Pass.
Salty for Salt's Sake


Member 27

Level 61.14

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Sep 11, 2006, 02:32 PM Local time: Sep 11, 2006, 01:32 PM #1 of 54
TNG, not counting the shoddy early seasons. Why? Because the original is just... hard to watch, DS9 is a Babylon 5 rip off (and not as good, anyway), and Voyager is fucking painful at too many moments to be worth the effort. Also, Enterprise I haven't gotten around to yet, so I can't speak to it.

Jam it back in, in the dark.


John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD.

No. Hard Pass.
Salty for Salt's Sake


Member 27

Level 61.14

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Sep 11, 2006, 05:42 PM Local time: Sep 11, 2006, 04:42 PM #2 of 54
Originally Posted by Soluzar
I've heard it said before. I don't really see it myself. Other than both of them being set on space stations, I really don't see the similarity. They came out at approximately the same time, so it seems unlikely that either one could be a "rip off" of the other.
basic summation of the argument:

Spoiler:
Quote:
1. Both series are named after a space station name with a single-digit number
2. Both series premiered in 1993, and were set aboard space stations that were hubs of interstellar trade and politics.
3. Both stations were located beside portals to distant places. (B5 guarded a hyperspace "jumpgate"; DS9 guarded the mouth of a wormhole.)
4. Both series originally featured a shapeshifter character; however, Babylon 5 dropped that element before filming, replacing it with occasional characters using various illusory and camouflage mechanisms.
5. Both stations started off being run by a man with the rank of "Commander" (Commander Sisko and Commander Sinclair) and ended with a man the rank of "Captian" (Sisko being promoted and Sinclair being replaced by Captain Sheridan)
6. Both started off with unmarried commanders haunted by a recent conflict.
7. Commanders of each station had lost their wives before the series started. (Sisko and Sheridan)
8. Both men's wives reappeared during the series under the control of a more powerful race. (Sheridan's wife returns in person under the control of the Shadows, while the Prophets speak through Sisko's wife in visions.)
9. Both commanders remarried during the shows run.
10. Both commanders had a girlfriend who was a freighter captain, Carolyn Sykes for Commander Sinclair and Kasidy Yates for Captain Sisko.
11. The commander of each station eventually became a religious figure who fulfilled a prophecy, advised by enigmatic aliens who were regarded as spiritual beings.
12. Both commanders (Sisko and Sheridan) "ascended" to become noncoporeal lifeforms in the series finale.
13. In both series the spiritual beings (the Vorlons, the Prophets) had an enemy (the Shadows, the Pah Wraiths) generally viewed as evil spirits by other races, with whom they had been at war for millennia.
14. Both series build up to a war between Humans and a militarily powerful, hard-to-detect enemy (the invisible Shadows, the shapeshifting Founders).
15. Both series had a sarcastic, cynical but dedicated head of security who started out as perceptive and extremely competent, but later succumbed to insecurity and compulsion (Garibaldi's drinking, Odo's link with the female Shapeshifter)
16. Both series had an idealistic young doctor with a hidden secret (Bashir's genetic enhancement, Franklin's involvement with the Underground). Both doctors also had strained relationships with their fathers.
17. Both series involved the use of genetically engineered diseases, designed to work against a specific group (Changelings, Markab, Human and Narn Telepaths, others) as a means of control or genocide.
18. The second-in-command of each station was a woman with a hot temper who had lost a family member in a war.
19. Central to each series were two alien races, one of which had until recently occupied and oppressed the home planet of the other. Furthermore:
1. The oppressed race was a deeply religious one.
2. The oppressors in both series were later manipulated by a powerful alien race to achieve its goals.
3. This manipulation occurred via a regular character in the series belonging to the oppressor race, who vacillated between 'good' and 'evil' through the course of the series, ultimately being taken over completely by powerful evil forces, which eventually led to their untimely deaths.
4. The plot of each series eventually centered around a war against the oppressors and those who manipulated them.
5. These wars resulted in the devastations of the former-oppressors' homeworlds.
20. Both series involved an alien race who had once been humanity's main enemies, but were now strong (but often troublesome) allies (Klingons, Minbari)
21. Both series involve a character who must deal with the conflict between their alien heritage, and their adopted human qualities (Worf, Delenn)
22. Each series added a small, tough starship, each the first of its kind, during the third season: DS9's Defiant and B5's White Star.
23. Each series includes a sinister organization working within the humans' government: DS9's Section 31 and B5's Bureau 13, not to mention Psi Corps and Nightwatch as well.
24. Each series had a male character named "Dukat" (though B5's is spelled "Dukhat") and each series had a female character named "Lyta" (although DS9's is spelled "Leeta").
25. Each Station was administered by an Earth based government (Earth Alliance in B5, the Federation in DS9) but was not in that government's territory.
26. While each stations was administered by Earth, that administration depended upon the sufferance of a second, deeply spiritual, race. (Minbari in B5, Bajorans in DS9)
27. In the first season finales of both series, the character frequently regarded as the "everyman" (Miles O'Brien on DS9, Michael Garibaldi on B5) is betrayed by his assistant in an assassination attempt.
28. Both series have a character who is the sidekick from an egocentric culture (Vir the Centauri and Rom the Ferengi). They both have values that are more "human" than those of their culture and are therefore seen as poor excuses for members of their race. Despite all this, they both end up as the leaders of their race by the end of the series.
29. Both series featured a six-episode story arc at the beginning of their penultimate seasons that chronicled a major turning point in their respective wars (the defeat of the Shadows and Vorlons in B5, and the retaking of the station from the Dominion in DS9).

Some Babylon 5 fans contend that DS9 plagiarized elements of the premise and details of B5. J. Michael Straczynski approached Paramount Pictures, the studio which produced DS9, with the idea of producing B5 and had given them a copy of the series "bible" in 1989, several years before production on either series began. Straczynski has been quoted that DS9 was not developed until about 1991/1992 on the JMS message archive [1], and it is documented that DS9 was not announced by Paramount until nearly two months after the announcement of B5 by Warner Bros./PTEN in November 1991. Straczynski does not think that the producers of DS9 (Berman and Piller) borrowed the B5 concepts but the borrowing was done by the Paramount executives who had been given the series "bible" who directed the development of the series. ("Grand Theft, drama!" and "Re: DS9 vs B5 comments")

Babylon 5's pilot film was put into production first, in August 1992, while Deep Space Nine didn't begin filming until right after the B5 pilot production wrapped in September. However, the first DS9 episode was broadcast the month before the B5 pilot film in early 1993. The actual B5 series was not put into production until later that year. By the time B5's first season was produced and aired, DS9's entire first season had been televised and its second season had just started airing.

Many of the points listed above have caused much debate between fans of each franchise. In regard to the wormhole question, while some fans point out their existence in Star Trek before Babylon 5, wormholes had long been an established element of science fiction, pre-dating both shows.

Some Trek fans contend that since the Ivanova character, a hot-headed female, didn't appear until the first season of B5, one year after the DS9 premiere, that DS9 had the lead there; however, in the original Babylon 5 pitch material there is one Laurel Chang (later Takashima in the pilot), a "no-nonsense, but with a sly sense of humor" second-in-command.

Going the other way, however, it should be noted that in regard to the Defiant/White Star debate, DS9's third season began in the fall of 1994, while B5's third season began in the fall of 1995, thus the Defiant predates the White Star by a year. Furthermore, the two ships went in very different directions, with the White Star being the first ship of an entire fleet, while the Defiant was a troublesome prototype with only a handful of sister ships.

There were considerable differences between the oppressed races, also. Unlike the Bajorans, Babylon 5's Narn were a major power. Furthermore, the Bajorans and their story of oppression had already been established in a 1991 episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation.

DS9 was the first Star Trek series to break with the traditional standalone-episode format and adopt serial storyline arcs across several episodes, a format central to the B5 series. There are allegations that it only adopted the arc format in the later seasons, however its producers later contended that the entire series was one long story arc. Given that arc-oriented television had existed well before either series, in the form of soap operas and television shows such as St. Elsewhere and Hill Street Blues, it could be argued that there was no need to copy B5's format, since it had been successfully established elsewhere. In the favor of both series, a program taking place in a static location is more conducive to arc-driven storytelling than a series involving a transient starship.


There's nowhere I can't reach.


John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD.

No. Hard Pass.
Salty for Salt's Sake


Member 27

Level 61.14

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Sep 12, 2006, 03:24 PM Local time: Sep 12, 2006, 02:24 PM #3 of 54
Originally Posted by Soluzar
I'd have to say that I can see that the arguments presented aren't entirely fallacious. There are some good points made there, and some connections which I never actually made. I'm not sure why I didn't make some of those connections myself, now that you come to mention them.

I'm certainly not in agreement with the conclusion that either show is a wholesale rip-off from the other. I'd say that during the genesis of and the run of B5 and DS9 there was probably a little cross-pollination, but there were also a lot of differences, both in style and in content.

As a side-note, I used to be a pretty big fan of B5, but I've cooled off on that show a lot.
The biggest issue for the argument of DS9 playing off of B5 is that the studio had the "bible" for B5 in their hands for the year leading up to DS9's conception. It's just sort of odd that they'd suddenly spin away from the regular Trek concept of being episodic and incorporate that many elements that show up in B5. JMS doesn't blame the writers, he blames the studio that supplies notes. Wouldn't surprise me if they'd used some of his stuff.

How ya doing, buddy?


John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD.

No. Hard Pass.
Salty for Salt's Sake


Member 27

Level 61.14

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Sep 12, 2006, 03:42 PM Local time: Sep 12, 2006, 02:42 PM #4 of 54
Originally Posted by Soluzar
Sure, I'm prepared to accept that. What I mean is that it seems like they took the concept in a direction which was diffent to Straczynsky's plan for B5. The concept is similar, as are certain elements, but the execution was different.

I found that B5 lost all sense of coherency towards the end of the Shadow War. It stayed good, but it was never as good as it promised to be. DS9 on the other hand, seemed to gain in strength as it went along. I enjoyed the denoument of the arc story immensely.
Oh, there I won't argue with you. And the reason it fell apart at the end of the shadow war is that JMS thought he had another year to wrap it up, and then they tell him he's being cancelled, so he rushes it, does one of the WORST story arc endings in Sci Fi history just to get some closure, and then they tell him "oh wait, we'll renew you." It boned the whole series.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?


John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD.

No. Hard Pass.
Salty for Salt's Sake


Member 27

Level 61.14

Mar 2006


Reply With Quote
Old Sep 12, 2006, 10:42 PM Local time: Sep 12, 2006, 09:42 PM #5 of 54
Originally Posted by Soluzar
Indeed. The original concept for the ending of B5 would certainly have been better than what was realised. As far as I'm concerned, we got something in the region of 3.7 excellent seasons, but I acknowledge that Straczynsky wasn't entirely to blame for the 1.3 seasons which followed.

In the end, the series as presented to us is all we have, though. So it remains a deeply flawed work of sci-fi genius. The greater the apparent potential, the higher the standard I hold a show to. This is why I can tolerate pulp sci-fi such as the early seasons of Stargate, or E:FC with pleasure, but criticise B5 for failing to fulfil the potential which was so richly in evidence during the second, third, and early fourth season.


I remain unhappy with the end of season four myself, but not to an extraordinary degree. I certainly don't agree with you that the end of that season was well executed. I maintain that while there were excellent individual episodes on offer, the pacing felt (as would be expected) wildly out of synch with that of the preceding seasons.

Pacing is an important matter to me, and poor pacing is often the reason why I eventually discontinue to watch a series. It affects my enjoyment immensely, although more so during the broadcast run of a series than when viewing it on DVD. I might add that if B5's pacing was a little fast, towards the end, there were times when the pacing of DS9 seemed a little too slow.

It also suffered from Wesley syndrome, in that I wanted Sisko's son to just fucking die already. Children don't belong on space dramas.

How ya doing, buddy?


John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD.

Reply


Exploding Garrmondo Weiner Interactive Swiss Army Penis > Garrmondo Entertainment > Media Centre > Star Trek Favourite Series

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.