islam, the religion of love...

Originally Posted by Hachifusa

At most, it seems the Abrahamic faiths are characterized more by being contradictory than by kindness/cruelty.

^Truth.

Some religions make it easier to find cruelty than others. It's easier to find hate in Islam texts and Old Testament texts than it is to find it in New Testament texts. You don't need to be "ultraconservative" to find this hate in religious texts, because it's obviously in there and was felt by the people who wrote the books. Doing back bends to turn hateful versus into positive ones is a wasted mental exercise that leads only to self-deception concerning the nature of the authors who wrote the books. Moral revolution in society always comes from humans recognizing suffering in their fellow humans, not from reading 2,000 year old books in a new context. We should all be immensely grateful that our compassion towards others is not restrained by the words of long dead men.

*edit x 25*

Those who keep these hateful texts close to their hearts shouldn't be considered "ultraconservative" or "fanatics" because really, in most cases, they're not. They're just more faithful to their Religious text than the rest of us. That's how they view themselves, and that's how we should view them. We reject the blind faith which all of these religious texts adamantly call for, and we actively reject versus that don't suit our own personal reasoning (in most cases). You can say that these faithful followers are "ignorant", but what exactly are they ignorant of? If anything, they're ignorant to the idea of rejecting religious faith and replacing it with modern day morality. Unfortunately, most people in society still enjoy idolizing the idea of faith so much that they make the object of that faith immaterial.

p.s. It's good to see that there are more people than just me arguing for this position, as it was a year before when I originally created a thread on this subject.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

Makes you wonder what percentage of US/Europeans hate the "Muslim" way of life.

A bigger problem is when the hate easily transforms itself into acts of violence, and I'd say Muslims win that round hands down. That is mostly due to their level of faith in their religion, and believing that being a martyr and sacrificing yourself really does get them into heaven.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Pangalin

Take some time to compare the average standard of living in these areas relative to each other. You might discover something interesting about the sort of things that make a man desperate enough to explode himself.

Economics can very well help lead Muslims to put blind faith into Islam, but Islam is what justifies the violence. Muslims don't say "I will kill Americans because I am poor and living in an oppressive culture." They say "I will kill Americans for Muhammad, just as the Koran says." If you remove the religious/dogmatic motivations from fundamentalists they would lose all sense of purpose in their violence, which is why faith in Islam is the most fundamental aspect of the cause of violence. If the mideast were devoted to Janism instead of Islam it would be impossible for them to use violence as a means to end, simply because Janism renounces any and all violence, period.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

So you take our conversation, which was in context of the Mideast culture, and move it into the Soviet Union to prove Religion isn't justifying violence in the Mideast? You fail at logic. Thanks for going the extra mile and criticizing an argument I never tried to make.

Religion is a form of dogma, though less malleable then political versions of dogma due to it being bound to what ancient texts say. Dogmatic political system (such as, hmm, the communist party of Stalin) can justify violence as long as those who carry out the violence have blind faith in the system. In both Religious or political systems, violence comes about through individuals putting blind faith into a dogma.

If the Mideast had no Religion to justify their violence, they may very well resort to a different dogma to justify the violence, or they very well may not. It would take all sorts of imagination to figure out how a non-religious Mideast would pan out, but I'd bet the number of suicide bombings would become nonexistent if they didn't think they'd get into heaven for doing it. In any case, getting rid of their blind faith in Religion would be an invaluable step towards reaching peace.

Though I'm not sure why I'm explaining my position to you when you'd more easily understand pictures with insults.

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by Pangalin

Suicide bombings occur largely because they are the most effective tool that disenfranchised, desperate people have to work with. You can try to pretend that somehow these people are different than other human beings just because they're in the Middle-East (how dare you compare them to other people!!!), but it's delusional.

Suicide bombing is a "tool" that they work with? You don't seem to understand what happens when one suicide-bombs them self. They cease to exist. They die. They pull a trigger to knowingly blow themselves into tiny bloody bits. This is a dramatically different situation then a bank robber. Bank robbers have plans for escaping, etc, etc. If a bank robber knew going into a robbery that he would get caught and killed he would not do it. Do you not see this incredibly dramatic difference??

Originally Posted by Denicalis

If there was a standard of living, and a situation where the benefits of death (possible afterlife reward) didn't outweigh the benefits of life (poor, no food, no women, no hockey) you wouldn't see it happening.

The problem is that when you're dealing with Religion, nothing on Earth is better than the benefits of a righteous death.

Now to tackle this "desperate" issue. Yes, people living in the Mideast are desperate for hope. Islam is providing that hope. Unfortunately, as with most Religions, the vast majority of that hope reveals itself only after they die. In the words of John Lennon:

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Fundamental Muslims, no matter how desperate, aren't contemplating "how can I make today better," they're contemplating "how can I make my Heaven better." This is all due to their Religious faith (note to Pang: don't generalizing this argument to include all Muslims, as you're prone to do in order to "prove me wrong"). If you don't think Fundamental Muslims really think this way, then you don't really know what it's like to be a True Believer (and should therefore read The True Believer by Eric Hoffer).

Or, you could just explain to me how desperate the 9/11 hijackers were to escape their well-educated, middle-class American way of life?

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Pangalin

Oh, so this is one of those things where you read an Enlightening Work Of Literature and now you Know How It Really Is. Why didn't you say so in the first place and save us all the trouble of assuming you could be reasoned with?

Actually, it was one of those things where I used to be a very Fundamental Christian and gradually came to understand the manipulative mind games that Religion was playing on me concerning desperation, virtue, and alienation. But I figured you might not want to go through that, so a book seemed appropriate.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by a lurker

It absolutely is, for the people telling desperate teenagers to blow themselves up. The message holds because the places where suicide bombings occur are much shittier than your house.

Desperation doesn't lead people to commit suicide while simultaneously murdering innocent civilians and soldiers. What leads them to commit these acts is their perspective on the world. Their Religion can easily convince them that:

1) It's not suicide, it martyrdom to get into Heaven

2) It's not murdering innocent civilians and soldiers, it's killing infidels that work against the purpose of Allah.

Hate always begins when one views their fellow human being as less then equal. Suicide bombers aren't desperate enough to kill innocent people, but they are desperate enough to kill infidels. If they suddenly had no Religion, they would have to somehow convince themselves that it's OK to murder perfectly innocent people while killing themselves without a purpose, and that is an incredibly tough pill to swallow.

As for Japanese suicide bombers, the same thing goes. Honor-infused dogma easily convinced them that it's not suicide, it's an honorable death in tribute to your country and Emperor.

Faith-based ideas embellish obvious immoral acts to disguise their true nature.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Radez29

If you're one of six kids, and not the eldest, then perhaps the best thing for you to do is to go kerblooie.

Well, the best thing for you to do is to have one of the other younger brothers go kerblooie. I'll incorporate your idea into one of my previous comments though, because you make a legitimate point.

Suicide bombers aren't desperate enough to kill innocent people*, but they are desperate enough to kill infidels and themselves*.

* for money, protection, and/or purpose

The transition from "innocent" to "infidel" can only be provided through faith-based dogmas, though.

Originally Posted by a lurker

FallDragon should stop beating his childlike fists against organized religion because, when he was ten years old, he honestly and truly believed he would suffer eternal torment if he stole a cookie from the cookie jar.

Are you and Pang related in some way? When you both fail at debating logic you resort to a final post of personal insults. You better double check on who's having the tantrum here, poopyhead.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?