Atheist parents!

Originally Posted by Cellius

I'm against religion and so is my girlfriend, so why teach our children something that we're fundamentally opposed to?

Simple answer: To educate them in order for them to become informed, responsible adults. You don't have to agree with something in order to be aware of it. I myself am an atheist and have a lot of problems with religion, but it is so all-pervasive that you need to be aware of the influence it has.

How about telling them stories about what different people believe, and how we should respect what people believe, even if we don't agree with it? You could start out with a really easy example that has nothing to do with religion, and gradually move on to stories about religions such as Christianity and Islam. In any case, I'd try to leave personal baggage out of it (although it's hard), because it will make the interaction with other, religious children difficult for them.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Right and wrong are right and wrong not because it was written in some book, but because you and society defines them as such. I agree, there have to be boundaries, but this has nothing to do with religious beliefs. The fact that someone doesn't believe in God doesn't mean that they are any more or less likely to go out and kill someone (actually, a significant amount of people kill in the name of God!).

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Unlike you, I don't take my good/bad cues from one book.

I take cues from society and from how people would like to be treated. From history, from mistakes, from experience.

Not to pat myself on the back or anything here, but I figure I do a hell of a lot for people out of a hope for humanity. I don't need a book of rules to tell me to be kind to those around me - I figure it's my job as a fucking human being.


Which doesn't require a book. I dunno. Maybe I'm just more observant than you are.


You don't know jack shit about atheists - why are you making any conclusions about them? They are all very different.

We are our own guide.

I don't say this often, but I actually agree with Sassafrass here. We are essentially our own guides, whether we take our cues from personal experience, hearsay, history, literature, or in fact religion. We are the ones who choose the rules we abide by, and what we think is right and wrong.

Atheists may differ in their opinions on this, just as Christians or Muslims differ in the rules and values they pick up on, and the ones they choose to ignore.

From a sociobiological point of view, altruistic behaviour usually serves inclusive fitness (the survival of our genes), or the principle of reciprocity ("if I treat you well, I hope you will do the same thing for me"). To me personally, the reason to try to be "good" is simply because I think it's "my job" as a human being as well. Maybe that is the case because it's the way my parents raised me, maybe it's my biology, maybe it comes from experience, maybe it's just me. But I do know that there is some sense of right and wrong there, and I don't need a divine authority to hand it to me.

In the simplest way, "good" is basically what makes me happy; and interfering with the happiness of other people makes me unhappy (most of the time - I make mistakes, of course, and I have bad days, like everyone). What makes me happy is good for me, and often, doing something good for others gives me a feeling of satisfaction. So I guess you could say I do good things out of selfishness, for my own gratification - then again, don't Christians get heaven for it?

Most amazing jew boots

Perhaps you are a good father, LordSword, nobody here is able to judge that, since we don't know you. It's the arrogance of saying that atheists are necessarily bad parents, which makes you unpopular here.

Most amazing jew boots

I don't think educating your children about world religions means that you haven't made up your mind. It should be part of a comprehensive education to learn about Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Shintoism, etc. ...it's what we learned in school. And although it will be difficult for me because to be honest, all that condescending religious talk makes me sick, I won't teach them that there is some sort of war going on, an "us against them". Why not? Because I want my children to have friends, it's as simple as that. I won't lie to them and pretend everyone gets along, but I'm not going to tell them to be against any of these, either, because I want them to be tolerant and aware towards other people's beliefs. I want them to respect them as human beings - and I hope that they will be respected as well, although they may face some rejection.

Of course I'll explain my own beliefs and my reasons for them first, and make my point of view clear. When they are little, children don't understand the validity of different beliefs, either, so to make it understandable to them, my beliefs will be all they learn, and they will learn about them as "right". That's just what parents do. But if they choose to disagree with that as they grow older (and by the time they hit their teens, they are likely to), that's their choice. They can go to church all they want, as long as they don't drag me there with them. Of course I would be a bit disappointed, but that's life.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Your argument is well constructed, but you may want to consider that people aren't 100% rational all the time. I think it's great that you want to teach your children to look at evidence, and encourage critical thinking, but you may still be disappointed. The toughest atheist can still have a moment of intense rage at something, think "fuck God" or "why me?" when their child dies of cancer. We can't understand everything rationally, there are many things we don't understand at all, and different people develop different coping mechanisms, different theories about their world of experience. Atheists are human beings, just like everyone else. Not everything can be proven, and sometimes, we need irrational hope to keep us going, whether this hope comes in the form of religion or something else. And sometimes, we feel irrational anger. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing.

I would want my children to understand that they can't always expect everyone to act rationally, especially when emotions run high, and that they don't always have to be the perfect model of rationality, either. I would want them to be able to deal with that, and not just view the world as the sum of empirical events and formulas.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?