[PS2] Ace Combat Thread (a.k.a. We Do Not Have Air Superiority)

Originally Posted by Karasu

And for the record...I am having such a blast discussing and agreeing with you guys on this particular forum. Seriously, i've been to the other popular AC sites such as AC.net [which is ACskies now] and hell, even the Namco forum. I gotta admit...most of those people there are either ignorant as hell with saying crap like "OMG, MOBIUS ONE IZZ DA BESTT, HIM AND BLAZE KNOW EACH OTHER" or "NAGASE WOULD BE HOT NEKKID" or you have these opinionated Right-Wing military kids who just don't get the core stories of these games, and just have all this fake patriotism going around. It's so aggrevating, and...weird to see THESE type of fans flocking to this game.

Holy hell. It's been a dog's age since I heard someone address that point from the sane side; I was back on AC04's GameFAQs board, which was like the Old Republic of AC discussion before they merged with Gamespot. Back then it was just points and tactics, with Grandmort keeping the scores updated on his Web site...then I went away because we'd done pretty much everything there was to do in AC04, and found that everybody had gone to AC.net. I don't know what they put in the water there and at ACskies, but it's just not the same; I think their traffic runs one-third game talk and two-thirds Fox News "discussion," with anybody liberal getting modded for "disrespect."

On a less disgusted tangent, I thought I'd pass along something I just picked up from ACZ, your reward for acquiring S ranks on all missions on Ace: a fascinating quote, doubly so given its source.

Eclipsing power is, at times, not only the instrument of demons, but also of gods.
-Wolfgang Buchner-

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I never got banned per se, but when I had the gumption to post a link to Pentagon Strike on the last 9/11 anniversary, dear old Mike503 killed my topic without so much as posting a reason. Of course, I remember him best for responding to my suggestion on GameFAQs that the X-45 be a playable uber-aircraft (no broken special weapons, just a level of acceleration and maneuverability not seen until the Arkbird's Vogels in AC5) with the words "NO NO NO!" For a while he gave up the mod business and claimed to be citizen 503, but I've quietly thought ACskies was doomed ever since I saw him start a topic to announce his reinstatement: "The Sherrif has returned."

As for encountering Mobius, consider the FALKEN. The TLS can burn aces out of the sky almost as fast as they arrive if you're quick; don't try that against large formations like Schwarze or Gault, of course, but even if you have to get close and lase individual fighters you'll still be moving faster than the MPBM's atrocious reload time permits. I had that idea last night, and cut through all five squadrons I drew (Gelb/Rot/Schwarze/Espada/Wizard) on Normal in about a minute each. That said, I first flew the mission blind on Ace, drew smaller squadrons, ran into Mobius and took him down...in a Morgan. It's all about making your opponents bunch up so you fire exactly two MPBMs per fight.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Honestly, I'm not sure if even all the "WTF wheres teh mushroom cloud in mission 12?!" posts on ACskies are worth starting up a new forum. It'd just be folks from here, really, and with pretty much all of the high-score potential drained from ACZ there wouldn't be much point in a scoreboard beyond timekeeping to see who's had the luckiest run through Mayhem.

As it stands, I'm almost finished with the game after about a week of play. All I need now is Expert Marksman, the S-rank medals for Normal, Hard and Expert, and the money I'll earn getting those to buy special weapons.

Double Post:
Lest I forget, I might as well clip the one truly useful piece of ACZ information currently on ACskies: someone named Inquisitor picked up a list of Assault Records aces off a Japanese site and helpfully translated how to see them, omitting those aces who appear in standard gameplay.

Spoiler:

No. Mis Call Plane How-to
003 01- Regen F-117A - Ace Diff
004 01- Wal XB-70 - When you only have two red targets left, he'll appear along with 3 F-5Es

009 02- Harpune F-15E - Ace Diff

026 04B Bachstelze F/A-18C - Destroy all ground targets
027 04B Gabel1 F-5E - Destroy all ships
028 04B Gabel2 F-5E - Destroy all ships
029 04B Moewe F-35C - Ace Diff, get SP Color after shotdown.
030 04A Elch F-15C - Destroy all jammers.
031 04A Schakal1 Mirage2000D - Hard diff+. Don't destroy any of the jammers. After destroying most targets, they appear in the last wave of red target planes, kill the aces asap or your allies may shootdown the red targets and clear the mission before you get them.
032 04A Schakal 2 Mirage2000D - Read above.
033 04A Hundert X-29A - Ace Diff, get the SP color.
034 04C Wetterhahn F-1A - Appears on the north after shooting down 5 targets.
036 04C Postler1 Su-27 - Ace Diff, get SP Color.
037 04C Postler 2 Su-27 - Same as above.

038 05- Fischer A-10A - Destroy all ground targets, get SP Color.
039 05- Trinker F-16C - Expert Diff+. Appears northeast after you shootdown at least one air target.
043 05- Schwan MiG-31 - Ace Diff. Appears south with the last wave of planes.

049 06- Wuerger F-15S/MTD - Ace Diff.

050 07M Spuk F-117A - Get 5000 Points within 7 minutes from starting the mission. Destroy all targets in the Northeast sector and he'll appear nearby.
051 07S Vampir1 F-20A - Get 5000 Points within 7 minutes from starting the mission. Destroy all targets in the Northeast sector and he'll appear nearby in the northern region.
052 07S Vampir2 F-20A - Read above.
053 07K Iris MiG-29A - Get 5000 Points within 7 minutes from starting the mission. Destroy all targets including AV-8Bs in the northwest sector and he'll appear nearby.
054 07- Mumie Su-32 - Ace Diff. Destroy all targets including AH-64s in the Southwest sector and he'll appear in the western region. Get the SU-32 SP Color.

057 08A Strom F-2A - Ace Diff. Get Sp Color.
059 08B Falter F-20A - Complete primary objectives within 5 minutes. Get SP Color.
060 08B Quelle JAS-39C - Ace Diff.
063 08C Woge Typhoon - Ace Diff.

064-067 M09M/S/K - Appear under normal diff+ after you destroy the jammers.
068 09- Bergnebel EA-6B - Ace Diff. Appears after you destroy all generators. Get SP Color.

077 10M Huckebein MiG-21bis - Pops!, go southeast to get him after Schwarze sq. cutscene. Get SP Color.
083 10M Grabacr Su-47 - Ace Diff. After Schwarze Sq. appears shootdown Nachtigall ASAP.
092 10S Ofnir F-15 S/MTD - Ace Diff.
101 10K Reiher Su-37 - Ace Diff. It's yellow 13 camo scheme!

102-104 M11M/S/K - Appear after all primary targets are destroyed within 4 minutes from start. They appear when you have 17 minutes left on the mission timer.
105 11- Wolkenwand EA-18G - Shootdown at least one air target.
106 11- Sternchen F-5E - Ace Diff.

107-100 M12M/S/K - Appear on Hard Diff+
111 12- Trombe Su-37 - Ace Diff.

112 13M Riese MiG-31 - Get at least 10,000 points and shoot the 5 Mig-31s spread across the area. These 5 migs-31 appear in 3 Mig-21 + 1 Mig-31 squads. After you fulfill the conditions, Riese appears west of the airport.
113 13S Beo F-15E - Destroy most ground targets on the far northeast area.
114 13K Mondlicht - Destroy the targets on the southwest and he'll appear heading south. Get SP color
115 13- Grani YF-23A - Destroy the targets in the central east area, and he'll appear heading west/south.
116 13- Schatten F-117A - Ace Diff. It appears in the far southeast of the map and heading southwest/northwest. You need to go up to 20,000 feet to catch him. Get SP Color.

117 14A Weihe TNO-GR.4 - Appears after you neutralize the destroyers west by shooting their sams and aaguns. Get SP Color.
118 14A Messer1 JAS-39C - Hard Diff+. Destroy all ground targets.
119 14A Messer2 JAS-39C - Same as above.
120 14A Kranich Rafale M - Ace Diff.
122 14B Albatros F-15E - Hard Diff+. Destroy all ground targets. Get SP Color.
123 14B Adler F/A-22A - Ace Diff.
124 14C Eisente MiG-21bis - Hard Diff+. Not really clear how it pops but, before 18:45 on the timer you have to shot down EA-6Bx1, F-14Dx2 and F-15Cx2, then he'll appear at 18:45. Another method is shooting down EA-6Bx1, E-767x, Mig-31x3 and F-14Dx1.
125 14C Feinheit Su-32 - Hard Diff+
126 14C Lilie YF-23A - Ace Diff

129-134 M15M/S/K - Kill the two Su-37 that appears after you shotdown Espada Sq.
135 15- Vulkan B-2A - Appears southeast of the Hresvelgr after you shotdown Espada Sq. May not appear on radar unless you fly close to him.
136 15- Felsen B-2A - Appears southwest of the Hresvelgr after you shotdown Espada Sq. May not appear on radar unless you fly close to her.

161 17- Turm F-35C - Appears on the far north and heading south on the second part of the mission.
162 17- Bauer X-29A - Appears inside the tunnel after you destroy 1 out of 3 V2 CTRL targets.
163 17- Ritter F/A-22A - Shootdown at least 3 planes on your way to the dam. He'll appear in the second part of the mission to the west side.
167 17- Springer EA-18G Ace Diff. Appears after the second bridge on your way to the dam, you only have a few secs to target and shoot him down, before he flies away.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by seanne

tajisdurmin: While I'm sure there are people who would appreciate that list of aces, not everyone might, so using spoiler tags would be a good idea.

Apologies, seanne. The original list wasn't posted under any kind of spoiler tag, because it doesn't really spoil much of anything plot-wise (OMFG, the end of an Ace Combat game involves a tunnel!). If you're working on finding all the aces blind, though, that's different...I think I got down to three unassisted when that list got posted. Anyhow, I'd edit the list to include a spoiler tag if I knew how to place one, since I looked at the advanced-edit interface and didn't see it in the tool icons.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Ugh. I swing by ACskies to see if anything new has gone up: there's now a five-post discussion of where to find Assault Records aces in the same frickin' thread that holds the list I copied. More interesting is an attempt to get still images from the Axe & Hammer briefing-startup sequence, so people can read the EULA that's momentarily visible. Last post on said thread, in its entirety: "Hmm, maby its the company u work for?"

It's days like these that make me dread the concept of playing Ace Combat online.

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Originally Posted by Mobius One

Give this to them:
http://acecombatzeroaxeandhammer.ytmnd.com/

The text is just a bunch of b/s legal mumbo jumbo, presumable to protect Axe and Hammer from liability if Cipher is killed. So I guess A&H is the PCM that Cipher is contracted to. A&H must be either based in or closely aligned with Ustio. Was Pixie also a mercinary working for A&H, or was he an Ustio Airforce pilot like PJ?

You sure about that? My assumption was that Axe & Hammer (Precision Instrument Industry, per the screen) was merely responsible for the UI that generates the briefing images, because the Osean briefing computers in AC5 flash a North Osea Grunder Industries logo the same way during startup. Mercenaries might be precision instruments, yes, but...one company purporting to be an industry?

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And that list of Aces was incomplete. It helps a bit, but I'm still missing Aces not listed.

It's not a complete list, merely the ones Inquisitor considered hard to find. If you've still got holes, try clearing every Free Mission available on Ace; that should bring up the difficulty-based loners and get you everybody who shows up on the three separate ace paths. I had gaping eight-ship holes in my Assault Record until I did that and killed squads like Schwarze, Gault and Wizard. There's also the off chance that allied craft winged an ace in a mission and he got away before you could kill him? That happened to me at least once in Mayhem.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Skwerl

Mobius 1, its on my SU-37

Ah, the Su-37. I don't know what they were thinking when they made 16 XLAAs and eight FAEBs available options on the same machine, but I saved up for one blind on my first game and didn't buy another aircraft until I was playing on Expert. It ties with the S-37/Su-47 in AC04 as the most broken aircraft to cross a return line in, although the title doesn't mean much in ACZ.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Skwerl

good news gentlemen, project aces.net just scored an interview with ace combat zero's voice actor. feel free to suggest questions to ask. That is all, dismissed.

Well...for starters, exactly whom are we asking questions of? Last I checked, there was more than one voice actor in ACZ; did you mean the voice director?

Things that initially come to mind:

Were there characters cut from the game because their voices were unavailable (i.e., no Heartbreak 1 because no Steve Blum)?

How much time overall (hours/sessions/weeks) does it take to record a main character's dialogue for an Ace Combat game?

What information, if any, do you receive about a character to help cast his or her voice?

What kind of effects work goes into making pilots sound like they're aboard aircraft in-game?

Is there any room for improvisation in the localization process, if a Japanese expression has no immediate English equivalent?

ACZ is the first game in the series to include live-action footage as well as voice work. How much of a factor did the voice actors' appearances become in casting them?

Based on your experience with ACZ's live-action work versus AC5's synthesis of voice work and CG animation, which approach seems most promising for future games in the series?

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Me, I'd just like to see actual differences between aircraft. As it stands, most of the time you can just scroll up the aircraft list from the bottom until you find the first one that carries your desired special weapon, secure in the knowledge that it is l33t. What the game needs is a few changes to make you think, first in a few simple gameplay issues:

First things first, no air-superiority fighter carries any anti-ground weapon stronger than stock UGBs or RCLs. If you want a rack of FAEBs, they're right over there on that A-10 you've never flown ever since you bought a Su-37.

Second, some missions need to have many, many more ground targets than we usually see at present, more than one aircraft can reasonably deal with...but within the capacity of a properly equipped squadron of ACZ wingman AIs, or allied bombers like those in The Inferno. I'm talking about something on the order of having to wipe everything off the map in AC04's Whiskey Corridor in 10 minutes, something that'll force the player to rely on help and fight a little more aggressively than "fire two missiles, fly ten seconds to next blip, repeat."

Third, AA defenses are due for a serious overhaul. AA guns need faster rates of fire, enough to allow a single gun to hit you for 50% damage on Ace during a close pass. SAMs could use slightly greater agility and/or persistence, for that matter, and both should pick up a 50% range boost from the presence of a nearby radar vehicle (which would finally remove "The enemy's tracking you on radar!" from the dead heat it's in for dumbest quote with "Radio failure!").

Beyond that, individual aircraft would feel a lot more realistic if even a few of those unique bits of technology on them actually did something for a change as advantages intrinsic to specific airframes. A few random ideas on that front...

Helmet-Mounted Sight (HMS): Allows the pilot to lock an aircraft from the cockpit view by looking at it with the right analog stick and pressing Triangle. QAAMs can be immediately fired at targets up to 60 degrees off-boresight from the nose of the aircraft.
Found on Su-27, F-22 among others

Forward-Looking Infrared (FLIR): Acquires passive locks on enemy aircraft, allowing standard missiles to be fired without provoking a launch warning aboard the target craft.
Found on MiG-29, F-35 among others

Laser Designator: Allows unguided bombs of all kinds to be dropped with a lock on nearby ground targets, if targets are kept within an SAAM-type lock circle.
Found on F-15E, F-16, Tornado among others

AN/APG-65 Radar: Adds 5000 to maximum lock range of XLAAs carried aboard.
Found on F-14D

GAU-8/A Avenger: 30mm depleted-uranium shells double cannon's rate of damage but limit ammo to 600 rounds.
Found on A-10

All of this is fairly technical compared to "which one has the most XLAAs," of course, but I think it would add a tactical edge and depth to the series that it's only hinted at to date.

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Originally Posted by Mobius One

I can't find measurements for the Falken, but the X-02 is 21.84 meters long. That would be 8.5 inches in 1/100 scale. The Falken a bit longer than the X-02 if I'm not mistaken. 8.5 inches is pretty small. It's livable, but is it really $40+ livable? Damn, if only I got payed more.

1/100 isn't all that bad, Mobius: I've never bought into Bandai's EX line because I suck at painting, but I've got two dozen Master Grade Gundam kits behind me on two shelves of a bookcase right now. They're about eight inches tall, and the level of detail is beautiful...I've gotta talk to HLJ or Hobby Search (http://1999.co.jp/eng, less text but much better package and manual photography) next week about picking up a Gyan.

Also, the X-02 exists but it was a limited-release kit by Hasegawa so it's very hard to find. Pretty much all you'll come across nowadays are the pictures.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Mobius One

That coin's bigger than a quarter right? I've decided that I'd buy even if it is small, its just too damn sexy plus I don't have any shelf space on my desk. But how do I found out how much shipping will cost at that 1999 site? I can't figure it out. If it's less than $10 then I'll buy it.

First things first, Mobius, I don't think you can get an empty box shipped to you from Asia for $10 lately; fuel's just that expensive. Truth be told, I mainly use Hobby Search's photos to examine items in detail (apparently the FALKEN's nose does open up), then buy from HLJ if they're new or a Stateside supplier if they've been out for a while...you'll probably pay a $5 premium for a MG kit from California, say, but save $10 on shipping. For just the plane from anywhere in Japan, though, you'll probably pay the kit's price plus $20 for shipping and whatever percentage your credit card tacks on for paying in foreign currency. This is where buying multiple items comes in: Bandai just announced a MG kit of the Gundam F91 for July, so I'll probably wait and buy one along with that Gyan I mentioned so they ship together.

There's also one on eBay for about $40 shipped (http://cgi.ebay.com/BANDAI-EX-MODEL-...QQcmdZViewItem), but it's from Hong Kong...sometimes they'll send you a bootleg kit so you have to be careful, but the photo on the lot looks legit.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I don't think the eBay guy is that much of a risk, really: tons of feedback including numerous sales of MG kits, bootlegs of which are fairly easy to spot if you've built even one. That said, HLJ's a sure thing, especially if you can find something else there you want...which shouldn't be that hard, given all the stuff they sell.

No matter what you do, though, go for airmail. I work in shipping and you'd be amazed what can happen to a crate of books that goes surface, let alone a plastic model kit.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Stealth

Bandai and Namco are the same company now.

And I'm sure they're going through their combined inventories as we speak, looking for overpriced fanboy merch like the FALKEN they can discount to the ideal GFF consensus price rather than what the market will bear.

I was speaking idiomatically.

*watches Foshi do a complete flip-flop on ACZ's difficulty, tries not to point and laugh...fails*

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Tokubetsu

Somehow, this fails in practice or atleast, your skipping the whole dogfighting/turns/barellrolls/2minuitechase that leads up to this finale. I also dont remember the Ace's being that easy...except for that one squadron that had like 2 people in it.

Unless you've given up on dogfighting and brought along MPBMs or a TLS, pretty much all you can do to accelerate things against most aces is get closer while you're in a tail-chase so they've got less time to evade your missiles...even then it's still just luck whether they do so. Sometimes the gun can help out, but I very rarely get pure gun kills on anybody except Schwarze because most are so maneuverable. And none of 'em fall for the XLAA-to-the-face trick that makes AC5's final mission so anticlimactic; even regular opponents often break formation before impact so at least one misses.

Anyhow, Thanatos, before you take Foshi's comments at face value, do read his last few posts in this thread. They're...illuminating.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Foshi

lol
Okay, let me spell it out more clearly. The game is quite easy to complete. My previous comments were about it's frustrating factor. I don't like games that are unnecessarialy frustrating. AC0 had too many unneeded infuriating moments in it. That does not mean that the game was not an easy one to complete though. I beat it in only a few days(2-3). Never did I say that this game was hard.

So the game's not hard, it's just frustrating and infuriating? How so? Unless you crash a lot, I'm guessing from what you've said before that you've gotten shot down one too many times by aces at the end of a mission...but you were just saying that you never called the game hard. Honestly, it sounds like you're trying to skirt around using that word with semantics, since I thought ACZ was markedly harder than the previous two games on my first run through it. Would it be fair to say you were a lot more frustrated with the game before you beat it than you are now?

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Foshi

Thats true, but the frustration came from not being able to have a checkpoint system or a quick save option. I don't like replaying missions over and over from the beginning. If I make one mistake like crashing into wall when I'm flying in the Avalon dam or something like that I want to start over right there and not play waste my time flying back to it. Yes, I know this is a minor nitpick which is why I still love the game.

Nothing in Zero really frustrates me, I guess, because almost no mission takes more than ten minutes if you're simply aiming to complete it. If I get shot down trying to kill everything in the air along with Schwarze in Mayhem, it's more my fault for trying to show off than the game's for being frustrating.

That said, though, the way Ace Combat handles above-ground crashes has never sat right with me. Since no in-flight or replay camera angle clearly shows the moment of impact, I've always had the sneaking suspicion that the game arbitrarily vaporizes you for being near structures rather than in actual contact with them.

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Unless your playing on Ace this game isn't all that hard. Yes, enemies dodge your missles better and lock onto you more often but it's not like flying against another human. Dodging missles is a sinch and shooting down enemies is a piece of cake with a good fighter jet.

Even on Ace, it's not all that difficult; as long as you don't get stupid or greedy, the enemies aren't any smarter. Every single time I've been shot down on Ace, I can attribute it to one of those two flaws...if I ever get frustrated playing the game, it's with myself for screwing up.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Wizard 1 symbolizes perhaps the greatest problem I have with ACZ: the wasted potential of the game's story. To use my own words from ACskies...

Quote:

The one point where ACZ truly drops the ball, though, is its plot, which misses vast opportunities to color everything you know about the previous game. To wit, I was quietly hoping for an answer to the single most disturbing question in AC5:

Why were those seven Belkan cities vaporized by Belkan tactical nukes?

I've had some time to think about it between games, and one truly wicked reply comes to mind:

Because the planes that dropped them were Osean.

Think about everything that one revelation would explain. The immediacy of Wizard 1's transmission to Pixy after the blast seen in Stage of Apocalypse. The first shots of the Unsung War being fired by aircraft using the same false-flag tactics presumably employed by the Osean nuclear bombers. The open hatred displayed by the Belkan pilots encountered in AC5, men who had learned the terrible truth behind a 15-year-old lie. The 8492nd Squadron's resultant sudden interest in President Harling. The real reason Harling was so quick to seal the records of the war. And last but not least, the Belkans' final, singleminded push to visit not merely retaliation but nuclear retaliation on Osea.

Shortly after I said that, somebody there claimed that ACZ's plot was by far the strongest of the last three games, citing the "Falcons of Dawn" mentioned in the Assault Records as evidence. Le sigh.

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Originally Posted by Stealth

I'm not gonna lie, the AC stories aren't really that great, but keep in mind, this isn't the type of game that even cares about a story.

This isn't a genre you'd expect a good story in, as you've mentioned, but ever since AC04 (never had a chance to play the Japanese version of AC3) I've raised the bar for Ace Combat. It's actually a good chunk of why I buy these games, because none of 'em have ever been that difficult.

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That being said, I don't think Osea dropping nuclear weapons on Belka would make any sense. At that time, they were already advancing into the northern territory of Belka, the war was sure to be over very soon. There would be no strategical value to dropping nuclear weapons on Belka. In fact, this would have only hurt them because it stopped their advance into the northern territory for a while.

First things first, Stealth, I know the official story about "stopping the Allied advance" as mentioned in AC5. It's just hard to buy when said advance, as seen in Stage of Apocalypse, consists of four fighters. Surely you'd feel more shock and awe if the nuke came at the end of a mission like Whiskey Corridor in AC04, wiping out all friendly ground forces just as they began to claim victory...

Anyhow, my Osean-nuke theory was just a bit of speculation I nurtured between games in my quiet hope that there'd be some kind of "I am your father" moment in ACZ, that all of these allusions about the Yuktobanian presence in the Belkan War and the mysterious influence of the Grey Men would actually come to something. Obviously there isn't and I'll live, but it's still a shade disappointing.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Karasu

On that note, I agree with Stealth. I dont get why everyone fanboys off of AC04, when clearly AC5 in terms of story and depth is more dominant.

People fanboy off AC04 because to do so off AC5 is an embarrassment. Give me silent, competent allies who advance the story by doing their jobs any day of the week over Nagase. Of course AC04 isn't quite as epic a war story as AC5, but you're not constantly getting pulled out of it by lines like "Man, this is the worst day ever!" when you blow up a bunker in Lit Fuse or "Where'd he learn to fly like that?" when you execute a 60-degree turn in Final Option.

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And about the bombs...well first, Belka wanted to hold the allies in place, and two, the military didn't want the country to be overrun so easily and they wanted the whole world to see how fierce and powerful they can be. Lets also not forget...the huge bomber did have the markings of Belka on it. Maybe it was going to be used for the country, and but somehow during the six month quiet period, the rebel team got ahold of it.

Again, I really do know the official line. It simply doesn't make much sense...which, per the game's overall perspective on war, might just be the point.

And the Hresvelgr's nonexistent backstory is another symptom of the numerous narrative failures in ACZ. The thing would mean a lot more if it had simply been presented as the first bid for power of the Grey Men, but instead we get a second underdeveloped shadow organization (AWWNB) that also fails to explain where the Hresvelgr came from. I assumed that the Sapin Air Force fielded it as part of a power grab for the resources in B7R until it was identified as part of the coup forces, suggesting AWWNB built it themselves, but there's a wallpaper on acecombat.jp showing it in the giant Belkan hangar at Mt. Schirm...which supports the "AWWNB stole it" theory, but this is all incredibly convoluted compared to the Arkbird's introduction. Then again, perhaps that's not fair since the Arkbird didn't, you know, get introduced in the same mission it was destroyed.

Double Post:

Originally Posted by Stealth

Who said that they didn't have ground forces closing in on all the locations? It would be quite stupid to think that Belka launched 7 Nuclear strikes to down a couple of fighters.

I know. That'd be almost as stupid as, well, not depicting any of the aforementioned ground forces. Obviously doing so within flyable airspace would be impossible, as much because of the PS2's technical limitations as because you'd laugh if you were orbiting ground zero at detonation and nothing happened to you, but even a line or two of radio dialogue from the ground forces would have immensely helped.

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And please, the AC04 story wasn't really that impressive, it's the presentation of the story that is the true gem of AC04.

Granted. But a good story presented well beats a great story presented poorly, hence my comments about ACZ.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Karasu

That's bullshit. 'Embarrassment'?? Why, because the real point in the story of AC5 was to be harmonic and peaceful with each other in the world? That's embarrassing? That's such crap dude. No one here is disagreeing that Chopper got annoying, hell even Nagase felt that way...but Nagase, just as much as another person 'doesn't want to see anymore young men or women lose their lives', especially if it's over a war that had no meaning but to exhaust each other's power so another could gain superiority. How sick is that? Would you want a war based on such superficial things? Lives wasted because of old war vendettas from years ago? THAT is what Nagase meant, she didn't want to see people in the war she's in, die in vain. I am proud of AC5's message and proud to be a big fan of that game. It was a wargame with a message, and I think it's something we all should listen to.

Damn, Karasu...don't you think you're overreacting a little? Don't get me wrong: there are plenty of moments in AC5 that make me feel warm and fuzzy, but there comes a point when soldiers engaged in combat generally shut up and concentrate on what they're doing. Nobody in Blaze's squadron, with the occasional exception of Grimm, ever hit that point. Eventually, it simply gets ham-handed: just how many times do you have to hear "Killing is immoral, pointless and wrong, except when you, me, he or she does it" to get the point?

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AC04's story was based from a kid's perspective of the war and how he was in it. Mobius One, in a way...wasn't the real main character. It was just a basic story though, like AC2's. A group forced out of Usea, trying to reclaim it so the continent can be peaceful once again. There ya go. Linear as can get.

Yes, but at least you got the sense that you actually were in a war. And the anti-war message was still there, just delivered with a hint of actual subtlety in the cutscenes rather than poured into your oxygen mask at random intervals.

Originally Posted by RayPrower

I don't see what the deal over the story is, really. If you play through it all three times and actually listen and take in what you see and hear, then most questions are answered pretty easily.

Sorry, Ray, but you asked for it:

Where was Yuktobania involved in the Belkan War on any level, let alone enough of one to make the Belkans want to nuke Okchabursk 15 years later?

How and why did the Grey Men come to be, and exactly what connection do they have with Belka? Were they a factor in what we see during ACZ?

Exactly when did the Rald Party take an active role in Belkan politics, and what if any influence did it have on the events of ACZ or AC5?

Just who were the Belkan bomber pilots in Stage of Apocalypse aligned with? Which faction of the Belkan government ordered them shot down? Were they merely decoys, or part of a larger strike plan? If the latter, why would they withdraw on the verge of success?

Who built the Hresvelgr, and for what purpose? Its Sapin escort craft still leave this point unclear.

What official involvement did the Kingdom of Sapin have, if any, with the coup?

What was the target of the V2 launched from Avalon?

That's a very quick-and-dirty list, none of which even begin to address your own questions regarding Kupchenko.

Originally Posted by Stealth

Every super weapon since Stonehenge has been poor because there is no intense buildup like they did with AC04. But I liked Excalibur quite a bit. Of course I have to agree, the XB-0 came out of nowhere.

It's also a product of the fact that every superweapon since Stonehenge has been far easier to deal with...>5000 feet for Yuke burst missiles versus <2000 for Stonehenge long-range fire, one huge orange targeting cone with 10-second delay for Excalibur versus wherever any of the seven operational guns are pointed at will for Stonehenge. That said, though, the Arkbird is the only opponent I ever feared in AC5; even before the story considerations it's sad to go directly from that to an overgrown B-2 that, unlike its inspiration, can be destroyed in flight by FAEBs.

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Remember, they were trying to close off the entire South Eastern front. Some of those nukes could have been more for strategic value then actually hitting Osean troops. It's not like they could send people across after it without radiation issues. It was meant to slow Osea down, and that's exactly what they did. They knew the war would end anyway.

But most modern tanks and APCs are NBC-survivable, so if they weren't directly hit they'd be able to button down and drive through the radiation...it'd certainly slow down everything else, although you have to remember from AC5 that if you've got four tanks, you've got an invasion.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by RayPrower

The Yukes didn't play an active role, but more of a behind-the-scenes role, supplying the allies with weapons and other assorted supplies. The Axe & Hammer briefing infrastucture you see before each mission? Guess who made it.

That's right, Yuktobania. It's a play on Sickle and Hammer (since Yuktobania is the AC0 world equivalent of Russia). It's also ironic since the Axe & Hammer aren't really precision instruments in any sense of the word.

I did notice the Yuke colors in the interface, both in-game and outside it...it's a nice touch, but with AC5 on record as telling us that "Osea and Yuktobania were allies in the war," I was really expecting to see them come in and save the Oseans during a botched op like Cannibal, or at the very least contribute a few units in one of the later missions. As the story stands now, we're apparently supposed to believe that Belkan vengeance entails nuking not only you, but the guys who sold you a pirated copy of Powerpoint.

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Most of the Grey Men were disgruntled ex-Belkans who worked their way into other countries over the years. Shoot down Ashley (GRABACR) in Mission 10M and read his Assault Record. It plainly states he joined the Osean Air Force shortly after the Belkan War ended. Also recall that Ashley was the one Pops talked to over the radio in Final Option from AC5 about the Belkan War. Ashley shot down Pops and Bartlett, got shot down by the GALM team, then joined the Osean Air Force after the war to get into the country.

It's obvious that there's a heavy Belkan influence to the Grey Men, but the head of North Osea Grunder's involvement suggested a broader scope of members in the military-industrial complex, what Valeris so eloquently describes in Star Trek VI when she identifies the leaders of that film's conspiracy as "everyone who stands to lose from peace." The Grey Men were a golden narrative opportunity, easily the most fascinating plot hook to come out of AC5, and Namco simply ignored them as completely as Yuktobania.

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Hamilton's story was explained in AC5. The other GRABACR/OFNIR guys just followed their flight leads into it. So how did the Grey Men come about eh? I wonder, maybe it has something to do with the whole "infiltration and revenge" thing Genette mentioned in AC5? Proof you don't pay attention to the story.

Now that was uncalled for. If I didn't pay attention to the story, I wouldn't give a damn about the various plot holes, omissions and non sequiturs that it reveals on closer examination; I'd be over on ACskies, surrounded by people whose deepest discussions of the plot are complaints about how they can't see the mushroom cloud in Stage of Apocalypse.

That said, I do give ACZ credit for hinting at many of the answers, what you and I both suspect happened behind the scenes. It's just frustrating to know that so many good questions will likely go unanswered, their screen time given to Hell Bound and PJ and the Hresvelgr. ACZ raises far more questions than it answers, and unless it's the middle chapter of a trilogy we've been left with a plateful of loose ends.

Originally Posted by Karasu

Just because I say "Bullshit" doesn't mean in anyway that i'm overreacting.

No, that'd just be the way you've been ad hominem on me from the moment you first posted a reply. Check your tone, Karasu: it started at derogatory and it's gone downhill from there, although I don't believe I've ever insulted you.

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But you're telling me though it's an embarrasment to love AC5 over 4 because of the whole 'peace' thing.

No, I'm telling you that it's an embarrassment to love AC5 over AC04 because the whole 'peace' thing was much more maturely handled in AC04 than AC5. I consider both to be honorable narratives that make powerful statements against war, but AC04 achieves that objective without draining my suspension of disbelief like an inconvenient wetlands area, filling the void with verbal diarrhea from my wingmen and building a peace park atop that shaky foundation FTW.

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I'm sorry...but we do live in a world where there is a fake, vain war going on. I bet the writers of AC5 kinda played off of that, and brought their message in. I heard it, and I find it to be a positive message that should take heed.

You don't say. I guess it's a good thing that Namco incorporates these barely concealed parables about current events into the series, because how else would the pathetically stupid and deliberately ignorant members of its target audience even know about, let alone frame and discuss issues like Iraq? Now, if only ACZ had more closely resembled Sudan...

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And if you forget....the Oseans have the Osean Air DEFENSE Force. Meaning, they attack when attacked upon. They are not agressors, and I found that to be rather noble. A superpower country such as Osea, plays diplomacy and defense before a battle and war.

An Air Defense Force that not only maintains a legitimately albeit supremely expensive network of air bases and aircraft capable of unaided intercepts, but has also wasted billions more taxpayer dollars to make its nation's borders bristle with redundant surface-to-air missiles capable of bringing down an SR-71? An Air Defense Force that encourages mercenary aggression by paying frontline fighter pilots up to $60,000 per sortie on a commission basis for each enemy kill, presumably with the money it saves by not employing humans to make shoot/no-shoot decisions on potential targets acquired by its SAM grid? Interesting definition of nobility.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Karasu

You can tell my tone on the internet? That's very perceptive of you. However, my 'tone' and attitude are not dergatory at all. I have in no way insulted you, or whatever you think I did. Don't make this something that it isn't, and don't make e-drama ok?

I'm trying not to. It's just that I keep raising arguments in support of my points, and instead of rebutting them you've responded by suggesting that I'm a fanboy, a warmonger, and ignorant of what "OADF" stands for. Eventually it gets frustrating.

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Peace was not a strong point in that game. Like I said before...it was a narration in the hands of a boy who was in the war.

Exactly! Peace was one of several points, but framing the story from the perspective of a child who effectively lost his father to you above Farbanti leads to the same places AC5 does...how many other fathers do you take away in that war to become a hero?

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The story in general didn't have a 'This land needs to be at peace' feel at all.

And here we come to perhaps the primary difference I've seen between us: you prefer the pacifist component of the story obvious and paramount, don't you? For me, AC5 is a relentless tearjerker of a plot, the kind of story that makes me cry the first time I see it unfold, but becomes annoying in hindsight as I realize just how calculated that effect was.

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Now who's getting an attitude... Christ dude.

What, you don't think educating gamers about current events through the medium of Ace Combat would be a good thing? If it's a positive message in AC5, then why not all subsequent entries in the series?

Unless, of course, you dare to presume that the people who play these games are intelligent enough to read the news, perhaps even intelligent enough to recognize the Iraq parable and find it not only condescending but redundant alongside the game's already overwhelmingly pacifist theme?

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This country is a super power country, I would think they have the money to have such technology for their defense, I would think.

So just because the USA-sorry, Osea-can afford to make its borders resemble those of the Soviet Union means it should?

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President Harling BTW cut their defense budget for the Mass Driver, so don't think they just wasting money with offensive weapons non-stop.

Never said they were. SAMs are defensive weapons, after all, but the indiscriminate way they're deployed in Handful of Hope suggests that the OADF is at best dangerously incompetent and at worst merely a check-signing agency for the defense contractors.

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And that mission is an escort mission dude, try not to look too hard in it. It's a game mission.

Ah, but you're the one inexplicably holding up the OADF as a force somehow more noble than ISAF or the UAF, when all three begin their respective games on the defensive and the OADF is the only one not fighting for its very existence. So when the facts become inconvenient to that theory, I'm at fault for pointing them out?

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Where did you get mercenaries from? Osea has no mercenaries at all, it's Ustio who had them.

Look the word up; it also has an adjective form.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Karasu

No, no and no. All I said was I don't get why people fanboy over that game when clearly in terms of story...AC5 was leaps beyond it. Never did I call you a warwonger, and never did I call you ignorant. All I did was bring up how the Osean air force is more of a defense force, than offensive. Seriously...cut it out, it's pissing me off.

"People" fanboying off AC04 presumably includes me, in no small part because that happens to be accurate, albeit for reasons beyond the plot which I've enumerated. You didn't say those other things outright, no, but you've implied them:

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How sick is that? Would you want a war based on such superficial things? Lives wasted because of old war vendettas from years ago?

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And if you forget....the Oseans have the Osean Air DEFENSE Force.

I suppose I owe you an apology on that last one for implying I'm forgetful, not ignorant.

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In my opinion, I dont think the boy saw Yellow 13 as a father to him. And to be honest...if I knew that Yellow 13 caused my parents to die by him shooting down an enemy of his, I wouldn't 'bide my time' and then just accept him just because he played the same song his Dad did on guitar. But oh well...it's a video game story, not a big deal. It's all good.

I'd like to think I wouldn't do that either, but the kid was damn young and thrust into a series of events that would be traumatic even for an adult. If anything, Yellow 13 became a father figure to him through sheer default, but the attachment was certainly there: why else would he choose to follow 13 west from San Salvacion?

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I prefer all of it...the pacifism, the battle, the action, the twists, the epic-ness. Everything. To me, it was one of the more epic games with a posititve message, both visually and through the script.

As do I, although one of my issues with AC5 is that it's a sick joke to constantly discuss pacifism with your wingmen while you're killing people. I asked you that question because the main thing I've heard you say against AC04 is that its plot is insufficiently pacifist, which strikes me as strange in that all three PS2 games' plots revolve around you building a heroic reputation by becoming phenomenally efficient at killing people. There's an inherent conflict within the series between the themes of pacifism and heroism, a conflict which each game addresses differently: AC04 compartmentalizes the pacifist and heroic parts of its story, AC5 makes you a war hero who comes to fight for peace, and ACZ tries to remove morality from the equation by casting you as a mercenary. In my opinion AC04 takes the least confusing route, as AC5 suggests that the ends justify the means and ACZ not only removes your theoretical ability to choose sides, it assumes that you choose the side that's worst for business...why would a mercenary want a quick peace?

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Actually, I find most of the people who play this game [besides majority of people here], are flat-out, right wing, pro-war, kill kill kill type of people [aka, most of ACSkies]. So they for the most part...don't see the connection.

Stop me if I'm wrong, Karasu, but you seem to be saying one of two very unpleasant things here: either

1) Exactly what I said about preaching within the game's plot, only without the sarcastic jest: blatant parables about current events within the plot are in fact necessary to correct the presumed intellectual and/or moral failings of the game's target audience.

or

2) That the presence or absence of said parables is a moot point, because the game's target audience is unable to comprehend them anyway.

Either way, that's an extremely dim view of the typical Ace Combat player, one which I have to vehemently refute because I've seen so many of them behave otherwise. I don't think I ever saw the words "Democrat" or "Republican" used on AC04's GameFAQs board; all we ever talked about were the ever-faster times and ever-higher scores we logged on the game's missions, the techniques we used to do so and the black magic our Japanese counterparts must have used to get scores 500 points higher than anything we'd ever done. To this day AC.net/ACskies is the only heavily politicized community I've seen this game spawn...as vocal as it's become, I have to consider it the exception rather than the rule. Perhaps it's idealistic of me, but I prefer to think there's a great silent majority of people out there who play Ace Combat and understand its underlying message without such measures.

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Well who fucking knows what kind of neighbors they have in that world. We don't know a thing about it, only it's wars and semi-politics of the wars. Don't look so much into one mission, damnit man....*rolleyes and sighs*

Oh, there's a dozen ways we could retcon or dismiss even a project like the Osea AA system whose scope is matched only by its idiocy...but it's a glaring counterexample to the point at hand. Besides, I'd actually like to hear your argument about the OADF's nobility, if and when you care to make it.

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When the fuck did I say they were more noble than the other air forces we've seen so far? And I don't even know what your question is about it man, be more elaborative.

That was an inference of mine, taken from the fact that we were discussing the relative merits of AC04 and AC5 when you said you found the OADF noble. I still question that statement, though: do you really think lining a border with thousands of SAM launchers that automatically fire on anything except craft with Osean IFF signals is noble? For my part, the only specifically noble thing I see about the OADF is its name; if names alone conferred nobility, the moral center of the globe would be the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

And I can't help but point out that for a noble force, the OADF has some serious retention issues with active-duty personnel...

Recent Ace Combat air forces, ranked by number of known pilot defectors:
ISAF: 0 squadrons, 0 pilots
UAF: 0 squadrons, 1 pilot (Pixy)
OADF: 3 squadrons, 21 pilots (Wizard 1-8, Sorceror 1-8, Ashley and company in 8492, Hamilton)

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Don't get frickin' cocky with me, got it? In no way does the term or adjective have ANYTHING do with Osea's Air Defense force.

But if you knew "mercenary" could be used as an adjective, then why did you pretend to be dense and ask where I got mercenaries from? And again, how is it noble and not mercenary that the OADF pays you a bounty for every single enemy you eliminate, regardless of its threat level to you or the mission? Just about the only way Iraq could look worse than it does today would be if if we paid soldiers that way.

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I think in all honesty, you are looking way too hard into this game, especially with the info we have, that isn't very expanding in their universe. It's a pity we don't have the info from the Japanese sites, because it seems they put a lot of work into it, and I bet those would shed a lot of light onto our un-answered questions.

I do take a hard look at things; it's called critical thinking, and it's a gift I'm glad I have. My only objective when I mentioned my old Osean-nuke theory was to point out missed opportunities in ACZ...since then I've gone into detail about my problems with that game's plot, but I've said pretty much everything I have to say on those topics. If I'm offending you by questioning your positions, I'll stop.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

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Don't take what I said as personal. I said 'if'.

All right.

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Where else could he have gone? He has no family in San Salvacion anymore. His only 'family' was the Yellow Squadron as you said. His uncle was taken and prolly killed, and his mom and dad died due to the plane crash. He had no choice. Now, don't ask me "Well after Yellow 13 died, what did the boy do?" Again...I don't have a clue. Maybe since he was with the Barkeep's Daughter, he went back to San Salvacion and lived with that family, and from there on...their relationship grew. Who knows. All of the AC games have had their own story within the world, with the exception to AC Zero being a prequel to AC5.

I didn't have any questions beyond that one, really; it seemed obvious that there was a bond between 13 and the kid that was powerful, although probably not very mutual.

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We don't know that. Yes, the PLANES of the enemy were destoryed, but the pilots possibly ejected. No one knows exactly. The theme of death in that game is more along the lines of MANY people rather than the few, with the exceptions to the pivotal aces of the wars, and the main characters.

Surely you're not suggesting that Blaze's position as a hero at the end of AC5 isn't achieved atop a massive pile of corpses. Even assuming every pilot save Hamilton ejects, even assuming you kill the bare minimum of red targets in every mission, you're talking at least a hundred kills to beat the game. Does that preclude Blaze becoming a hero in AC5, particularly in light of the lives ultimately saved by doing so? No. Does that raise serious questions about the sanity of killing repeatedly to implement pacifism? Yes.

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No, i'm just saying that since i've been a fan of this game....i've encoutered MANY of the people I just pointed out, with the exception to the people here. Hell, I even know a kid where I work and he plays this game...wanna know what his political stance is? Republican, and PRO-WAR all the way. He likes the killing aspect of the game, rather than the story and message of it. I have yet to meet people like here at GFF in real life.

I'm not one myself, fortunately, although I do confess that the game's excellent at relieving stress. I haven't ever met anyone who's played the series in person, but I really can't believe that Mitoro and the Japanese folks we briefly spoke with on GameFAQs back in the day sit around and wish they could use nukes...then again, who needs nukes when there's the Morgan?

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It's a game mission that the makers wanted to try out. End of story. Stop going overboard on one stupid mission. It's a stupid idea to have a AA missle system, but it's part of the game, get over it dude.

I won't, then. It's a little pointless since I've asked you twice now how that's noble and you're obviously not planning to answer that one.

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Oh man...

Again, finding a country that would rather spend it's defense budget to build something to prospect on, and using diplomacy before war...was something I found noble. However, if you wanna keep over-ranting on the whole stupid AA missile net...feel free.

And those are noble actions...by Osea, but I took you to mean you found the OADF noble and you never corrected me on that point. I still have issues with the OADF, but the nation itself is like a sane version of the States. Hell, Harling even looks a lot like Gore.

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And seriously, your whole pilot defectors point fails so bad, because AC5's story was so long and rich with detail that it actually spawned a prequel, where as AC4's was linear, and didn't focus on the military of ISAF...just one pilot: Mobius One. Sorry, but your whole point is negated on that aspect.

They've all been linear, Karasu; that "Face of the Coin" cheese is just a bullet point for the back of the box that doesn't affect the game's ending one bit. Anyhow, it's a fairly comical point I won't try to seriously defend given how the vast majority of the OADF tally comes from ACZ, but you have to admit it's a little difficult to explain the AC world's greatest superpower losing almost two dozen fighter pilots and their aircraft to pretty much anybody in a trenchcoat who talks a good game.

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Ok wow...

You do realize this is a game? Since the BEGINNING of this series, it has had that money system. It has and will always be apart of the GAME. It was in no way..connected to the freakin' story. I don't know how in the hell you put something from a game into being part of the story. That's unbelievable.

I think I said something similar when I was told Meryl's Codec frequency was on the back of the CD case.

Seriously, though, I know it's a game convention, but if Namco had wanted to establish the OADF as such a noble force, they could have established a new payroll system that rewards you for achieving your mission without scoring kills, without resorting to force beyond what's necessary. For that matter, they could have done something better with the only use of ROE I've seen in the series than make the first missions' non-cleared targets non-lockable and/or invincible. The mission failure you get for sinking the surveillance ship in Open War is the closest they ever got to that.

As things stand, there is no reason to do anything as an OADF pilot except obliterate every possible target on the map each and every time. If you take the strict red-target path I mentioned, you'll probably be lucky to buy two good aircraft in the course of a start-from-scratch game, while your Republican friend is telling you about how he's got every F-15 variant...and you'll still get the very same ending that pays tribute to your "ferocity" in combat.

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You still haven't answered my questions as to what mercenaries have to do with Osea, since they still have their own pilots and military?

You created that question by assuming I was using "mercenary" as a noun, which I wasn't. I still maintain that the payroll scheme for AC5 encourages a mercenary play style that contradicts the theme of its story, one which undermines the game's plausibility enough to make payroll a valid factor for discussion in relation to that story. It may not be part of the plot, but it affects how you play every mission as surely as the presence or absence of a return line.

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Your critical thinking is on haywire then, because you're even confusing a game's currency with part of the story, which blows my mind.

I've given my reasoning; it's your call whether you respond with a rational argument or more insults.

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You are not offending me at all..but you are becoming like Chopper: Obnoxious.

Then I'll stop, right here. It's not like your positions have to be defensible for you to hold them.

Double Post:

Originally Posted by Mobius One

Perhaps the Grey men were manipulating both Osea and the Yukes into a cold war standoff (and not just the simple instigation of the war between them). Perhaps their influence was greater than it seems and they controlled a few components of each government to allow for "defense" spending. They seem to go to great measures to exact their revenge on the world.

That's pretty much what I thought the Grey Men were up to, although the only hard evidence for that is North Osea Grunder Industries. It's just as possible, although markedly less sexy, that the Grey Men's only objective was to nurture and support the resurrection of Belka in AC5 and that we will never hear of them again.

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Theory: I predict that in AC06 the Grey men will be alluded to again, and that perhaps they even had a hand in Grunder Industries growing in power (which eventually leads to the AC3 world of Corperate rule). A nightmarish distopian world where the arms industry orchestrates wars in order to grow richer is perhaps the best kind of revenge there could be.

Sadly, I really don't know enough about AC3 to have an opinion one way or another on that one. I rented the lobotomized NA version, beat the game once and decided it was too horrible to ever buy...all I remember about it now are whole missions set underground and superplanes that all resembled minor modifications to a paper clip. The Wikipedia article about the game doesn't even mention whether it was set on the same world map as the PS2 games.

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Here's what I understand about the Grey men: They weren't formed until after AC Zero (or maybe even near the end of the Belkan war as several Belkan loyalists saw the writing on the wall) and are comprised of former Belkan loyalists that wanted revenge against the world/Osea for the loss of the great Belkan nation during the war. They proceeded to secretly orchestrate events over the decade and instigate a war with their various spies and agressor squadrons. They apparently also control Grunder Industries (seeing as how both the Yukes and the Oseans were using Grunder built aircraft) which makes them rich. Grunder Industries eventually becomes General Resource LTD. by AC3. Am i right about this so far?

Well...see above, but pretty much all we can do about the Grey Men at present is speculate. They're one of those annoying loose ends that scream "trilogy" louder and louder the more you think about it.

Jam it back in, in the dark.