Song of the Week - WEEK 60 Voting/WEEK 61 Nominating

Very tough week for me to allocate points. I too can’t predict a real winner.

Bionic Commando (NES Game Rip) - Area 5 I found this track to be a serviceable chiptune with some variety to not make it too mundane. For it to be especially addictive though, there is still something missing in my opinion. The “something” that cannot be described.

Delicious Selection - Gamadelic - The Sword of Delight (taken from CD - Dark Seal)
A solid and fun kind of track. Ironically I liked the beginning best (0:19…), the singing was allright, but taking a somewhat prominent role in this track, it didn’t add up much to something meaningful that would justify its existence. To me it sounds like just some kind of singing I don’t really understands what’s about, alas.

Kagero ~ Deception 2 Original Soundtrack - The World is falling into Ruin What follows the most impacting beginning fell a bit short of its potential in that it could have developed more. But maybe it was just meant to convey a certain sensation, without diving into a more intricate composition. As such it’s actually well done and a fine listen.

Mr. Driller Sound Tracks – Balance
A kind of scattershot track, which incorporates a lot of individual segments. The violin is what merely binds it together. There is a nice culmination point at 1:16 which kicks grandmas. Today it has been lingering in my mind for a while, which can’t be a bad sign for it. Otherwise, I still fail to see what the whole picture of this track is.

Street Fighter EX - Strange sunset
Semi-melodic track with some improvisation along the road. There is actually a fully melodic part starting at somewhere 1:50, but it’s not the highlight or something. I can feel the sunset in this track, but the improvisation, which should be the highlight in my eyes, leaves me really blank of any affection for it.

The Music From and Inspired by Gran Turismo 4 - Machine Gun (Gran Turismo 4 Pop Rox Remix) Interesting track in that when I shut off any channel of participation the track felt like just a neutral bypasser. But it can be quite fun once I let the funkyness infect myself to a little body-hopping. Some parts are creative, others not so, but all in all it’s on the positive light with catchy rhythms.

Treasure Hunter G Original Soundtrack - Emperor of Balladry
A good blend of dramatic and calm music. 1:38 is to die for. It appears to be the most straightforward track this week (along with the chiptune), but it convinces me the most for being so simple yet so highly expressive in its intention. My choice this week, albeit a bit reluctant, because it dives down at some part too.

Wonder Project J2 (Game Rip) - Josette of the Colro Forest
Very similar to the former track, in that it changes the mood a few times. It’s a bit tense in the beginning, then changes to a melancholic solo (0:39) followed by a sort of anthem (1:02) to finally resolve in a “happy ending” (1:54). Haha, it’s pretty structured and therefore a bit plain, and I am not overwhelmed by it, but it’s a good track nonetheless with a coherent melody binding all these parts together. A better rip would be nice here actually.

Point Spread:
3 Points – The Emperor
1 Point – The Ballance
1 Point – The Machine Gun
1 Point – The Forest

Can someone explain to me what caused Chudah’s Corner to reparticipate in this weekly event? With all the activities going on there, you’d believe they just discovered it recently.

How ya doing, buddy?

The reason for this is that I have been seriously considering nominating some doujin works lately. In consideration of this event's goals and ideals, I see no objection to why they shouldn't be allowed.

In the beginning of SOTW, which has been nearly 2 years now, the rule was to prevent mass-influx of individual amateur arranging attempts, because their identities were rather random and it's what VGMix and Ocremix etc. are there for. SOTW was going its own unique way, and so shall it stay.

The doujin circles I am talking about are actually established and acknowledged japanese composers or teams that are quite experienced in their arranging skills. The tracks are stylistically interesting and of perfect sound quality. It's just that they are widely unknown in the western hemisphere and their production scale is rather modest, giving them a big fat “doujin” label. They have cataloque numbers and all these features as well.

Given the fact that SOTW has branched out to Non-VGM works by VGM-Composers, it would be an “undaring” step to allow lesser known arrangement works, that's still largely concerned with what's elementary, VGM. I am all in for doujin circle's individual works to not be accepted, as it's clearly nothing to do with VGM, but arranging VGM, meaning maintaining at least 50% of the original VGM work, should be considered in my opinion.

It's been two years almost and I don't think this change will hurt any of SOTW premises, or driving it away from its unique route. Care to risk a thought?

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Ok, dude here’s what…

1. If a doujin arrangement exists, why not simply nominate the original song?
It’s for the same reason a lot of people nominate arranged songs. They prefer the arrangement over the original.

2. Aren't many doujin rearrangements of tracks that would be considered too popular for SoTW (Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, etc.)?
No, that’s what I am trying to explain to you. There are really obscure works featuring music from obscure games, not only Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest and the Moon and what not…

3. Isn't the difference between OCRemix/VGMix and "doujin" simply semantics? After all, the OneUps could be considered "doujin." A catalog number doesn't seem like it's a magic solution--heck, bootleg CD's have their own catalog numbers even if there's no catalog! If anything, Djinova's definition gives preference to Japanese remixers when they and their western counterparts are engaged in the same business.
Not it’s not simply semantics. “doujin” is not a site and doujin is not free. Actually, “doujin” is used very loosely, but it often only means that the production quality and quantity are not high, but I am talking about the exceptions here. Actually I am not trying to give preference to Japanese remixers, but most western remixers only arrange familiar stuff. I mean, if the rules change, I welcome any western “doujin” work as well as long as the original work is as obscure as it’s eligible for SOTW.

4. By broadening the definition of "VGM" still further, aren't we getting away from what the SoTW concept is all about? After all, if doujin were allowed, works would show up that weren't produced by VGM composers or anyone involved in the industry. If a song were sufficiently different from the original to merit consideration, it would essentially be an original work by a non-VGM composer that was only "inspired" by VGM.
What kind of industry are you talking about? Nominations are allowed already, when a composer touches his hands on one track in a game, all his past and future nominations. Gracefully, people are not exaggerating there. But there have been quite a few tracks, I personally would not regard as VGM, but then we’d come to the question of what VGM is and should be… and I dare not dictate this. Non-VGM-Composer’s work with inspiration from VGM is admittedly half the truth of VGM, but so is Non-VGM-work by VGM-composer. Why even lie, more than half of the best tracks from SOTW have come from arrangements of some sort. The chiptunes haven’t been victorious since Treasure Master something. I am all doing this only because I believe I have good obscure tracks to nominate if this rule was relieved.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Fair enough, though by nominating an original obscure track, rather than a doujin remix, you could get a track similar to the one you want to nominate into SoTW without changing the rules.
Heh heh, I guess as an orchestral fan you’d be the best to know that every little in a track can count, from synth to slight rhythm changes to pitch.

Such as? I think some examples are in order.
I was mostly thinking of arrangements from Touhou or better known as ZUN tracks. All the complains about weird synth and typical frantic ZUN and stuff… They are all justified. The arrangements would only take out the melody and adds “better” decoration to it, I am sure. Also NOW, it’s limited to his stuff, but there are endless other shooter track that would fall under this category.

Well, the stuff from the OneUps isn't free either--they sell CD's (even if they're on hyper-sale right now). Most importantly: who decides what's "quality" doujin and what's not? Simply limiting the selection to works offered for sale doesn't address quality issues.
Well, do I sense a kind pessimistic attitude through experience here? Who decides what a good track is and what not? I was just mentioning sales and production simply to draw the similarity to normal professional soundtracks, it’s not about quality.

I mean the VGM industry, of course. The "non-VGM by VGM composers" rule has been bent quite a bit, you're right. But why open the door for further abuse by loosening the rules even more? I'd actually like to see them tightened.

I'm opposed to the idea of doujin in SoTW mainly because it would further muddle the rules and create a lot of headaches out of proportion to the benefit. I don't doubt that you'd be scrupulous in screening your doujin, but others may not be. There are tons of tracks I'd like to bring in SoTW that aren't allowed by the rules, so I sympathize, but I can't see the inclusion of fanmade works as a good idea.
Heh heh, I know you are talking about the industry. But who decides who belongs to the industry, both in theoretical and practical meaning. There are obscure doujin games out there. Simple games, complex games… they all contain music. I am just trying to get some good music nominated by lifting an obstacle, how can this cause headaches. You are probably thinking about film music, I have done so as well, but this is really way off. I don’t understand why the event is being so composer-oriented, when we are listening to single songs instead. Arranged or not, by professional or amateurs, as long as it’s kind of VGM it should fit in my opinion.

EDIT: One more thing about the headaches... The job of you is to vote. Most don't even care to make comments nowadays, let alone inspecting the details of the track. So if no one told you the difference you wouldn't know or even care anyway.

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Your definition would definitely rule out arrangements then.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Hey you see, I would agree to shut the door completely as well. But I honestly don't think this is a suitable option after all this event has been through. Also, sorry about the last EDIT paragraph. People surely noticed I was more being "rantish" than "reasoning". But don't let this distract you from the points I have mentioned before. As far as arrangements are concerned they are valid in my opinion.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by CHz

Ooh, a good policy debate. Been a while since the last. :biggrin:

Regarding arranges by non-composers: if we let it some, we have to let in them all. Having a CD and a price means nothing; hell, I could take ten MIDIs from vgmusic.com, whip them through a program and add PHAT B33TZ, put them on a CD, make up a catalog number, and sell it to really stupid people who don't know any better. If Heaven's Race Guitar Style is eligible, then so should be this free TF5&6 arrange I'm listening to right now, as well as anything from OCR/VGMix/RKO/etc.

The point is anything from OCR/VGMix/RKO/etc is already covered up by exactly these sites. Who is going to promote all these doujin arrangement CDs? The publisher themselves do it you could say, but pretty much like the aims of SOTW, some deserve more attention than just what the publisher does, that's why I am trying to bring attention to some tracks, that wouldn't otherwise be known elsewhere. I don't know what this TF5&6 arrange is, but I'd say if you find anything remarkable from this, and it has not appeared yet on any other contest-like events or is as "unknown" as SOTW would regard it as eligible, then it may be nominated. Isn't it what we do all the time, judging by feeling which tracks are ineligible and which are not, it's not like there ever was a list. And I think it wouldn't be difficult to decide whether a relatively known track from OCRemix or an obscure arrangement from Yin Wu's Manic Quest would eligible. (Heh heh, I wouldn't actually nominate Heaven's Race Guitar Style then... if you thought that sparked my becoming vocal).

Quote:

However, as an interesting aside, does it really matter what the source is? In the past we've allowed obscure arrangements of decidedly non-obscure themes; Chocobo's Happy Christmas immediately comes to mind. Then again, there was a bit of a firestorm over Theme of Dragon Roost Island from the Mario & Zelda Big Band Live CD. Do we want to apply eligibility rules to the track itself or the source of the track?

Again here, there is no list. A lot of people like me, didn't know or didn't even care, because an arrangement always has the element of surprise. It's again by subjectiveness that was decided. Hence, I wouldn't rule out arrangements of popular tracks by principle, but they would have a greater disadvantage nevertheless.

FELIPE NO

You’re on the right track. It’s just that doujin is not only limited to anime and pictures. It’s an all around for anything amateur, small-scale, self-published, self-produced, thus less unknown, but not necessarily of less quality. My knowlegde is only limited to doujin music and anime, but like I said it could be anything.

So you could call the works promoted by amateur remixing sites such as OCRemix “doujin”, and it would be ok, because it would fit parts of the description of what “doujin” is. Personally, I don’t for the sake of clearly separating “amateur” and “doujin”. Nowadays, if you do something and give it away for free, it’s considered “doujin”. But if a big company produce something without charging the customers, it’s hardly “doujin”. On the other hand, nobody talks about free software as “doujin”, even if some nobody makes it. As you can see it neither directly relates to the size and professionalism of the producing person/group, nor is it always bound to money-making. “doujin” consists of written definition and accustomed usage. By written definition a lot of things can be considered “doujin”, by accustomed usage I would only count in some small-scale eastern companys/groups/persons actually acknowlegded by the “doujin” scene. Also, this might give more insight: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doujin

Heh heh, the word is so diffuse. Everyone has a little different knowlegde and his own concept of what it means. My aim has been to try legalizing some music that “inadvertently” would fall under “doujin”, but has not been widely known or exposed to on any other music site. That’s all.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Dhsu

I agree with keeping doujin out of SotW, though. If you want to expose people to great arrangements you've found, you can always start your own "Doujin of the Week" event or something. That, or post them in my lonely doujin thread.

Those are nice ideas, but I think people are having problems enough keeping up with popular albums, not to mention checking out obscure professional soundtracks, let alone some doujins. There are people, but their numbers are far too little to justify something like “Doujin of the Week” in my opinion. Even in SOTW the number of regular participants have been reduced to half of the initial. Another difficult barrier to cross might be the initial pessimism towards anything amateur. And I don’t even think there are this good material to ensure longevity to an own weekly doujin event. SOTW undergoes enough periods of mediocrity and lethargy, even with the large potential it has. I simply don’t have the energy, knowlegde and the certain prestige to lead on such a project. All I can do is try to sneak some of them into this event, for game music’s sake (lol), because a “Doujin of the Week” will simply have to cover all sorts of doujin music, not only doujin VGM, this being only a small field in the vast doujin land. About posting in your thread, it is by my experience that some links with a personal recommendation label on them are seldomly clicked. I too would rather hesitate, if someone jumped in and said “Hey, this is awesome, check it out”.

Originally Posted by CHz

The only point I was trying to make is that, even if the purpose is to increase the recognition of these doujin arrangement CDs, once we open the door to some arrangements by non-VGM composers, we have to allow them all (subject to obscurity rules, of course).

I think perhaps allowing this sort of thing would be overstepping the bounds of what Song of the Week is supposed to be; some have argued in this thread that allowing arrangements and original works are already overstepping it. Increasing exposure to doujin works might be better suited to other places, like Dhsu's thread, which I'll link again for him, or perhaps even a DotW, assuming there's enough interest out there.

I actually think allowing this sort of thing is to make a step within the initial idea and the overstepped one, since they are arrangements per se, but this is really only my opinion, or would you say there is a substantial difference that would make any doujin arrangements distinguishable from a professional work? Allowing them and actually somebody nominating them are two things really (I will of course). I guess you are afraid that once the ban is lifted, massive influx of OCRemix (as convenient example) tracks will overflood this board and dominate every week from the moment of onset. I won’t like it as well, but that’s fearing for the worst scenario, which I can’t be sure of that it won’t happen, but my good faith telling me it’s not going to happen. Yeah, good faith it is. It might actually be interesting to find out if something like this happens if this sort of thing is temporarily allowed.

Originally Posted by Elorin

Just a thought: why not have a strictly doujin/remix week on SotW once in a while if there are enough nominations (so a separate doujin nomination queue could be set up)? Of course, the doujin tracks would be excluded from the normal SotW. Since such doujin weeks would be few and far between, it could help, to an extent, promote doujin without detracting too much from the main SotW event. Or keep it simple and set up a separate Doujin of the Week event as suggested.

Well, that’s the thing. Even a doujin/remix week on SOTW is hard to organize. As far as I know from looking, the only ones who frequent in the VGM doujin scene is Dhsu, CHz, _DH_ and to a limited extent me. The other regular participants have remained silent so far, therefore I assume that they only know it by name. Heh heh, a half doujin/half professional week would be possible, but I am not being serious.

Quote:

Djinova, based on your definition of doujin, if I were to rearrange a piece of music from an official game soundtrack, would my track be considered... doujin

Like I said, the word is diffuse. It would not be wrong to call your work a doujin, but it would be more of a “doujin” if you were japanese and trying to make some money with it.

Jam it back in, in the dark.