Pregnant teen needs help! (The sequel)

Originally Posted by LordsSword

As anyone would guess, my take on this is get God in on the action with prayer.
All of your actions were good ones yet you are merely human. Plus she doesnt need you like the rest of her support system.
Even if you have given Him a chance before and things didnt work the way you wanted try again.

Prayer doesn't help in personal responsibility. Prayer doesn't make a person more mature, more responsible, and less needy.

You've done what you can, Chibi. I know it must be painful to watch her go through this and not learn her lesson the first time around.

The more people around her enable her, the less she will learn. I doubt you personally enable her, but the people around her (her mother?) sound like they are torn between helping her and cutting her off.

The only way I think she'll learn is if she gets a little tough love from your family. If she is old enough to pop out a few kids, she's old enough to start relying on herself.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Traveller87

Unfortunately, cutting somebody off is always problematic when they're your own daughter (which is why I think her mother's reaction is understandable), and even more so when there are children involved. It's a common cliché that letting a person hit rock bottom will eventually make things better, when in fact, it may just lead to them getting stuck there.

I don't agree with this assessment 100%. But it usually works for people who are accepting handouts when they have their own capabilities.

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I agree that you've done a lot for her, and that SHE eventually needs to take care of her own life - it's not your responsibility to do that for her. But I'd still keep an eye out for her for the sake of the kids, although I'm convinced you were going to do that, anyway.

Whatever happens, though, it's not your responsibility. She needs to find her own way. And maybe her family's way and their advice wasn't right for her, who knows? If her mother wants her to move out, she should talk to her about it, and tighten up the rules/conditions for her. She needs to get her expectations across ("if you're going to live here, I want you to a) do XYZ around the house, b) ..."), and make it clear that this is a sort of contract. If your cousin is supposed to grow up, she needs to be treated like an adult. And if she thinks she can do whatever she wants, then perhaps she needs to realise that she also has to carry the consequences, and that other people won't always take care of these things for her.

And what would the consequences be, exactly, if the cousin doesn't follow the rules of the house? Whats the worst the mother can do? Ground her?

I agree that some rules should be laid down, but that's not "being treated like an adult." That's being treated like a teenager.

I think with some time, the girl will do a little growing up and will find her own strength - especially if she has to.

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People grow with the challenges they face, but only with the right kind of support. And that's often difficult to give. Once again, it is her own responsibility to get her life together, and only she knows what she wants, but it does help to be supported through this process of gaining independence. So what I would do is probably to ask her what she wants from life (what kind of job, etc.), and how she thinks she can achieve that. Then perhaps give her some job websites and phone numbers of support services, where she can get professional advice....and the rest is up to her. You can't take that step for her.

You're looking through rose-colored glasses, I think.

Maybe it's because I've read the previous thread about the girl (I'm glad you followed up, Chibi~) and I know that she's a stubborn little cookie who thinks she's got all the answers, but yet can't seem to figure anything out.

You can give only so much help in these circumstances. I have a feeling the girl will walk all over whomsoever gives her help. Give her an inch, she'll take a mile.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Traveller87

The mother could kick her out, for example. Rules exist for adults as welll, it has nothing to do with treating her like a teenager.

Okay, look. I don't know how old you are nor how much life experience you have or anything, but in MY house, where I live and pay for, I do what I think is right and wrong.

I set my own rules and I live by them, come hell or high water. Why? Because I am an adult. I know the difference between right and wrong, cleanliness and squalor, screw with or without a condom, so on and so forth.

I am responsible for myself. Something that this girl should try being. Instead, she is asking that other people be responsible for her actions - which is not very mature of her. I would understand if she was younger or whatever, but seriously.

My point is this: when living at home with your parents, even if to get yourself back on your feet, you really shouldn't NEED to have the rules laid out for you. Out of respect for your parents and gratitude for their letting you stay awhile, you should be on your BEST BEHAVIOR, consideration-wise.

To do otherwise is childish.

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Our whole society is based on these rules. It's not like she's going to say "you have to be home by 12", but rather that she's establishing a contract with her - the terms and conditions for her to live there, and how she's going to contribute.

Contracting with your fuck-up daughter isn't a great idea, considering she hasn't quite got a great track record.

Of course, that's my opinion. Until she showed evidence that she wants to contribute or contract, the girl is out.

I don't want to come across as some black-hearted, callous person here. I understand people make mistakes, and I understand that sometimes they need help with correcting the mistakes that they've made in their lives. God knows I've been there.

But when you repeatedly make the same mistakes and show no remorse or intention of fixing the problem why should anything be given?

Enabling is a dangerous thing - I've seen it from the levels of rich kids who can't hold a job to addicts. Sometimes, you've got to get tough to get your point across.

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If it doesn't work out, the mother will have to be rigorous and actually kick her out, and that's probably what I see as the biggest problem, because it doesn't sound like that's likely to happen.

If you can't live up to the ultimate consequence, maybe you shouldn't put yourself in a position where you'd have to consider it to begin with.

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And to me, the cousin sounds very disoriented and unsure what she wants/can get. Her stubbornness is mainly self-protection, and it is striking that she always made her whole moves dependent on the guys she was with.

Why do you think this has anything to do with life direction and confusion over where she wants to go in life? (ie: what she "wants")

The girl is a stubborn, naive little thing who thinks she has all the answers. She's going on Baby #2, living off welfare, and tugging at the hems of her mother's skirt for help.

If she wants protection, she could start using birth control, stop moving in with any Joe Schmoe (see previous thread about this particular girl), and listening to the advice of her family and/or friends who love her and want to see the best come to her and her children.

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That's why I suggested helping her in terms of practical advice and listening to what SHE wants, to her own ideas and plans.

The girl can't get her man to wear a fucking rubber. What makes you think she can plan her own life out right now??

I don't understand why you think she should explore her life desires right now. Girl needs to clean up, get a job, and support her two babies.

She should have thought about her life plans BEFORE she screwed some asshole and popped a few out. She's made her choice, and now, she has to live with it.

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Of course there have to be boundaries to this as well, and things she has to do on her own, but as a starting point, it sounds like support would do her some good. Don't forget about the children.

"Don't forget about the children." Yea, that's the entire point of my post: the mother has to make some goddamn sacrifices now. It's not time to think about college, to think about what she wants to be now that she's grown up, or whatever.

It's time to put her nose to the grindstone, bust some ass working as a waitress or something making money to feed her babies, and get the fuck off welfare.

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Originally Posted by Traveller87

Also, aren't there any parenting classes or any other support groups for young mothers in your area?

This is something I never understood. Parenting classes? What is this hippie new age bullshit.

At the same time, I imagine these "parenting classes" cost money. Who's going to pay for that?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Traveller87

In the Fourth Valley Area, which is where I live at the moment, there are both support groups for single parents, as well as classes in primary care for babies. These are free of charge, and partly run by the NHS. And no, that's not because Stirling is such a posh, rich place - it has high unemployment rates and the highest suicide rate in Scotland. So don't give me any of that hippie talk.

"Hippie talk?" Yea, no, see I was accusing you of the hippie talk. You're the one acting like a dirty hippie in the thread.

I say "Bitch is dumb. She needs a swift kick to the ass."

And you follow up with "Holy hell Sass, how dare you be so awful to imply that this girl isn't capable of taking care of herself!"

I am sitting here, dumbfounded by you.

At the same time, if we're going to start talking about parenting classes, you've just got to know how stupid that shit is. "Here is how you keep baby warm. Here is how you feed baby. Please do not let baby sit in squalor or put nasty things in it's mouth!"

People have been rearing children for centuries without "parenting classes." Why do you think some dumb broad should need them now?

The underlying point is the bitch is stupid, selfish, and not of a mental capacity to be popping out kids.

No one can take away her RIGHT to have kids, though. So I guess the family is just going to have to shut up and put up if they don't feel like doling out a little tough love.

Have fun with that free babysitting, Chibi!

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Traveller87

Then you misunderstood me. My reply was actually more along the lines of "how is pointing out that she isn't taking care of herself and her kids very well bringing Chibi any closer to a solution?" It's pretty obvious that she keeps making mistakes, that she's stubborn and keeps screwing things up even more for herself and her kids. But it's also obvious that Chibi cares about her. So shouldn't the point be to find out to what extent something can be done, rather than just saying "forget that bitch"?

What are you going to do, twist the girl's arm? At that point, you're not doing it so much for her, but yourself.

This girl has been handed help on all levels. I think you ought to check out Chibi's previous thread about this particular cousin.

You can lead a horse to water, as they say.

At what point are you going to just let the girl be responsible for herself? How ELSE do you think she'll learn at this point??

O. That's right. CLASSES!

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How convenient it must be to divide the world simply into good parents and bad parents - you can just stop interacting with anyone who makes a mistake! Good thing you're free of them.

Believe me - I've seen my fair share of the mediocre parents.

But in this case, the girl is 20 years old. At what point do you think it's fair to cut the umbilical cord and let the girl learn on her own? Did you read the previous thread?

Chibi's family isn't guilty of not helping the girl, to be sure. They've done as much as they physically, mentally, and legally can, with the exception of calling CPS and trying to seize the children. (Which isn't warranted, based on what Chibi has told us, I guess. Up for debate.)

For Chibi's family (which likely has it's own problems, as families often do), why should they spoon feed a 20 year old who is just plain out TOO DUMB and TOO LAZY to do anything for herself??

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You'd be amazed how many people could do with even that bit of "stupid" advice. Just go to any local fast food place and watch some of the parents with their babies. A girl who uses a pizza box as a litter box for her cat sounds like she could use it.

Do you think I don't live in a reality?

Chibi's cousin isn't feeding her kids scraps from a dumpster, here. (Well, she could be. In which case, HA HA, CALL CPS) In fact, I'm tempted to say the girl is too LAZY to go dumpster diving. She'd probably ask her mother to do it for her.

Chibi's cousin seems not to need "parenting classes" for the mentally deficient, but a good dose of reality. She doesn't seem to be mentally handicapped in a clinical sense - just handicapped by her own laziness and sheer stubbornness to accept the consequences of having a goddamn child.

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People have been rearing children for centuries without them, but they also had 10 of them and lost many of them before they even reached the age of 5. So it's all good, I guess, let's go back to the good old days and have higher child mortality rates, nothing wrong with that.

I'd say that has more to do with the condition of living and health care compared to the past.

"O. You're kid died of dysentery" doesn't exist too much anymore - not because of BETTER PARENTS necessarily, but thanks to medical breakthroughs. (LIKE BIRTH CONTROL.)

But let's pretend parenting classes are the entire cause for decreased infant mortality rates!

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Traveller87

They certainly weren't, but what does the mere existence of children for centuries tell us about parenting in relation to our expectations of it? Not much.

You've got a point, Sass, the girl needs to start taking responsibility for her kids and herself, and not leave it up to others. I DON'T DISAGREE WITH THAT (and yes, I have read the previous thread, hence the pizza box comment). So the conditions need to be toughened for her. I just don't think kicking her out on the street will do the children or her much good. Neither will walking up to her and saying "you're a lazy, dependent bitch" - that is NOT constructive criticism, it only makes people shut down.

No, I agree. Screaming matches don't result in much besides hurt feelings and resentment.

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I don't pretend to have a solution that will change everything, all I can say is that my next try would probably be a mixture of helping her to help herself (by pointing her in the right direction - job websites, advice centres, etc.),

I'm not sure why you think this would help. I mean, her family (who presumably reared her) is giving her solid advice, and some additional bonuses.

I don't know what it's like over the pond, but I can guess this chick isn't educated and she's already got two babies. She should suck it up, work at McDonalds for a few months, and get some money saved.

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...while at the same time putting more pressure on her (by telling her she either has to start working harder, or she'll have to move out and figure things out herself) . Positive reinforcement tends to work a lot better than punishment (and yes, I do realise that she's a woman, not a puppy). Maybe it will work, maybe it won't, but it's pretty much all that's left for Chibi's family to do, because it sounds like they have tried everything.

I wouldn't right-out kick her out of the house necessarily. But what's Mom going to do? Sit at home (possibly quitting her job) to ensure her daughter attends work every day while she watches the kids?

How far is too far.

FELIPE NO