Theological Discussion

Originally Posted by Minion

Some of it, yeah. Jesus used parables all the time.

So could you please expound on the following:

"Don’t imagine that I {Jesus} came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword lf you love your father, mother, sister, brother, more than me, you are not worthy of being mine!"

Matthew 10:34

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Minion

Well, was he right? What are we fighting about right now?

I am asking you to explain what you feel (The Church) Jesus meant by that lovely, LOVELY phrase.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Fjordor

Sass, I find it harder and harder to read what you write when you include so much condescension and arrogant presumtuousness.
Weren't you the one who was bitching about "Christians being condescending" or something?

EDIT:
Ah yes, here we go:
http://www.gamingforce.com/forums/sh...sion#post47439

I like how you didn't answer the question, Fyodor! I wasn't condescending or ANYTHING in my question! I just wanted to know what the explanation was of that statement! Please! Do not be confused!

Don't YOU think that statement is a little....uh....harsh coming from a man who claims to be the son of god? Claims to be a peaceful man? I think it is. Don't play the Hate Card against me because of my interpretation, sir!

Perhaps you can also explain this one?
“If any man come to me, and not hate his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sister, yet, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple”
Luke 14:26

Fyodor, surely you can see how a person would be turned off by this, no?

And Minion, it seems more to me that he is pretty much encouraging war-mongering in the name of faith. Maybe its just my interpretation, being an idiot and all. =/

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Fjordor

I didn't answer because:
1) Again, it is hard to acknowledge condescending questions
2) Minion took care of it

So you agree with Minion's assessement?

Quote:

Also, it seems to me like you are not actually interested in getting answers to these questions, and rather you are looking for something which you can mock us for. It seems more and more like you are trying to catch us in some stupid logical trap.

I am simply ATTEMPTING to discuss things in the Bible I am a little confused on, Fyodor. I am asking you these questions because I'd like to hear what you guys think of these scriptures!

Are you getting offended because I am selecting rather bizarre and unloving words of the Bible? Thats PRECISELY why I am asking about them! I need clarification! It seems a little contradictory to me! Perhaps I am just not understanding, and I was hoping you could maybe shed some light on the matters at hand?

No? You'd rather get offended? OKAY~

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Minion

I didn't call you an idiot, but I think you're wrong. I also think that what he meant by that was pretty obvious from the context. Just read the whole chapter and I think you'll get it.

Sir. What makes you think I haven't.

Quote:

The problem with the Luke passage is two-fold: there is a translation difficulty and a figurative concept that you haven't picked up on.

A figurative concept. Which I haven't picked up on yet. Because I don't know how to read.

Quote:

Firstly, there is apparently no way to express moderate feelings for love/hatred in Hebrew. Take Luke 16:13 for example:

"No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other."

Now, does a servant HAVE to hate one of the masters? Hate is such a strong word. Could he maybe just not like him as much? Seems a little extreme, but in the proper culture context, people would know what you were talking about. It's a relational thing. Which takes me to my next point.

What Jesus is saying is that compared to how your supposed to love Him, your feelings that you describe as love toward you family and friends are like hatred. It is simple hyperbole - a concept that is used extensively in Hebrew, in the Bible and by Jesus himself (ie, forgive your enemies 77 times 7 times, etc.).

So you're okay with people demanding your love? THINGS demanding your love? These same things threatening your life for your love? And they love you back?

CAN YOU SEE HOW THIS IS A LITTLE BIZARRE TO US, MINION.

"You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh on account of the dead or tattoo any marks upon you. I am the Lord”
Leviticus 19:28
O SHIT. Get a tattoo, you go to Hell. Get an ear pericing for your child - you go to Hell. You shit into the wind you go to Hell. I can see why you guys are wound so tight. =/

I guess circumcision is also wrong and bad, ne?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Minion

It's not a demand. He's saying that if you don't love Him that much, then you don't "get it". It's more of a litmus test for how close you are to God than anything like a demand.

So Minion. Prove to me how close you are as my friend to me. I want you to prove your friendship to me by simply drawing a pint of your own blood in my name.

You'll surely say no to this, right?

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Fjordor

Yes, more or less.

And I am sorry, but like I said, the language you have a tendency to use gives me impression of baiting and mockery. That is just my impression though. And I guess there is not any way to tell with certainty either, considering the nature of conversation through written word.

Interesting parrallel you make there, my dear Fyodor. (I am sorry for writing Fyodor all the time. You just change your name so much, I can't keep up. Sorry again.)

And yea, so may language teeters on sarcasm. Thats not necessarily intentional. Consider who I talk to all day long. ^_^

Eitherway, here's another one for you to explain! (I am enjoying this!)
"If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted."
Leviticus 26:21-22

Either you or Minion. I just like to hear what you guys think about them. Like I said, to ME, they are fairly hostile words. To you, its words of wisdom, I guess? =/

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Minion

I don't see what that has to do with anything. God is not asking for my blood. He's not even asking me to prove anything. Why would He if He's omniscient?

He asks for your blood in death, first of all.

If he's omniscient, why the hell does he feel the need to demand proof of your love all the time? I HAVE a scripture written down somewhere on this blasted notebook which encourages sacrifice. Literally. I'll edit it in once I find it.

AH! I have SEVERAL, here! <3

"Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you."
Genesis 22:1-18

Burn your son - the one you love so much - sacrifice him to me?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Minion

I really just don't know what you're talking about. When does He ask for my blood? Maybe you're talking about Jesus? I dunno...

See my last post on the previous page. Like I said, I have a lot of NOTES to go through on my end - please be patient.

Also, sacrifice, Fyodor, should never be included in atonement. No sir could be as horrible as making a person sacrifice their son to God. Such a loving God that he is.

Originally Posted by Fyodor

First of all, looking at this from a psychological perspective, this was probably a call for him to perform act which would concrete his devotion to God. Of course God wouldn't let him go through with it, but this is not what Abraham was thinking. Abe's devotion to God is taken at a totally different level in his mind when he is goes off to do this. Actions can have a significant psychological effect upon a person.

So murder is okay when you're concreting the devotion to your God?

In that same vein, I bet Allah loves suicide bombers! It all makes sense now!

Quote:

Secondly, the matter of sacrifices in general is a matter of atonement for sins. Basically we all deserve to die, and then some. But instead, and I don't know how or why God does this, he will accept a replacement. This is why sacrifice is generally necessitated in atonement. Because we all deserve to die.

You're actually justifying human sacrifice. I can not believe I am witnessing this.

Quote:

Yeah yeah yeah, I know you are going to complain about how this is "totally unfair" or "breeding a culture of fear, thus forcing people to believe in God" or other shit, and well... so what?

YOU believe in it. Not me, dude. I sure as hell know I would never buy into this. I am sorry, but, you know. WOW.

Quote:

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is not true.

Just because you like it doesn't make it true.

Quote:

Just because someone in China is afraid to voice any opposition to the government, and they don't like it, does not mean that they are not disallowed from voicing opposition. Life is tough, and God is perhaps the closest thing to an exception.

Maybe in your world. (Wherever that is.)

Quote:

Let us not also forget the possibility that the idea that we deserve to die might actually *gasp* be true. :-O

How terribly HUMAN of you to say.

Things expire. ALL things expire, in time. Its nature. Not God. We don't die because we deserve it. We die because theres no way we could biologically last.

Quote:

Also a third point:
It was setting the stage of sybolism in the Hebrew(and world's) understanding of what Jesus was going to do.
Abraham was supposed to be the father of many nations and many people. Isaac is representative of this. We, the people of the world similarly should be put to death. However, instead, a sacrificial lamb is provided by God. This is representative of Jesus, who came to take our place in death.

A LAMB MAGICALLY APPEARS! HIS NAME IS JESUS.

He was KILLED on a cross because his people couldn't stand him, and then he magically came back to life! NECROMANCY IS AWESOME. It works for Satan! <3

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by Minion

I think we have an innate understanding of what is good according to God due to our being created in His image. Now, how badly that understanding gets corrupted by society is another story.

Maybe society created God.

You can not deny the possibility!

(Also, for more topics such as the determination of "good" and "evil," you'd do well to read a lot more than just the Bible. Nature essentially sets forth a code which we are bound to as creatures. There is one thing on this planet we can never lasso - nature.)

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Minion

Sounds like religion to me. Are you asserting religion as fact?

Depends.

How are we defining "fact."

And no - nature is not religion. At all. I am without religion. I am just an observer.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Minion

Nature is not, but perhaps your beliefs about nature are.

Tell me what you know about my beliefs, sir. I assure you they aren't in any ancient books or archived texts. =/

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Minion

Oh... because religion didn't exist before books. Whoops!

Religion has been SPREAD VASTLY because of books, yes. World's most printed book in history, sir.

Anyways, answer the question. What do you know about my beliefs? Anything? At all? Do you care?

Think about where I am going with this.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Fjordor

Ok Sass'm, I know little to nothing about your beliefs.

But now that you have piqued my curiosity, enlighten us.

Thats a complicated question. I don't think I could write it all down like you'd expect someone to write it all down. I've been kicking the thought around for a while (why I took so long to respond) and I really don't have faith or anything in any omniscient thing.

I believe in nothing, really. Because "to believe in" implies you put faith into something. So I guess I can honestly say I don't have faith in much.

I can, however, observe. And I can learn from my surroundings and find some undeniable truth in them.

For instance:
Man does absolutely nothing altruistic 99.9% of the time. I am still not decided on whether or not its all of the time. He is a very selfish creature, and where he can stand to gain, he will try his hardest for it. Like a true Earthling. ^_^

Another example:
Man desires control. This is caused by the ability to reason. The ability to reason originates in something I would rather really not go into here. I have my reasons. I am sure you can understand.

Man is uncomfortable with living as an animal. He sees a distinct separation between himself and animal - again, from the ability to reason.

They say the ability to reason is our survival technique. I think its a flaw in evolution.

But yea. I am a completely faithless person. This doesn't make me a BAD person. I abide by what *I* feel is right and wrong. I don't feel the need to have someone or something else think for me. I have a brain. I intend to use it.

FELIPE NO