Religion: What it means to you

Well Godless Cod, you have a problem with the fanatacists that take their religion too far in a negative direction.
Many people have been killed in the name of a God, whether it be God, Yahweh, Buddha, etc., but most religions these days have analyzed and apologized for those acts. Before his death, Pope John Paul II apologized for the crusades, as well as many other abominations that weaker men in the past have commited.

As for me, I'm currently involved in joining the Catholic church. It's been a wonderful spiritual journey, coming basically from a loose Christian background with little direction to preparing to be a devout catholic. My wife is Catholic, but that's not the reason I'm doing it. I'm doing it for me, but she helped me realize that it is important and it does make sense.
I had a ton of misconceptions about the church before joining it, mainly due to the media coverage of such topics, which is often horribly skewed and often the exact opposite of what a certain religion is trying to say.
One major one was that the church is outdated and out of touch. They are very much involved with the tough issues today, it just seems that most people aren't willing (or aren't ready) to take responsibility for their actions.
Sex is always a big topic with the Catholic church, being that they're against contraceptives (for good reason if you've ever taken the time to listen to the argument) and pre-marital sex. It's taken a lot of reflection and prayer to come to terms with such grave issues, but I believe I'm ready to take one of the biggest steps in my life. It will be a tough road, because being Catholic today is very difficult. However, if it was not difficult it would not be worth as much, IMO.

I still strongly disagree with religious fanatics like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and most of the evangelicals who believe in religion without responsibility, but I pray for them. The whole concept of prayer was very foreign to me, but throughout the class I have seen its power firsthand, and now strive to learn more about it and how to do its many different versions.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Godless Cod

Yes, I know sex has always been an issue with the Church; they used to kill people because of it. Apart from that, contraception is a good thing, it stops many unwanted pregnancies,

I'd argue the opposite, and the church obviously does too. Since 1930 unwanted pregnancies have gone up. Because women and men can have sex at any time with contraception with the false idea that it won't result in pregnancy leads to 'mistakes' (they should be welcomed surprises) when the contraceptive fails. This in turn leads to poverty, which has also gone up, and more misguided forms of sex, along with pornography. Abstinance is very hard to live and that is why it is viewed as impossible by the secular community at large. It's not for everybody, but Natural Family Planning (the idea that a woman is naturally infertile for several days during each month) is a more responsible way to avoid preganancy, while still being open to children if God wills it. This has been difficult for me because I was brought up with pornography and masturbation being 'perfectly normal' things, but are very harmful in the long run. Still, NFP is an amazing thing for married couples because it lets the woman know more about her body and cycles (man is the rhythm method totally flawed and outdated), and the sex is AMAZING! Heh.

Originally Posted by Godless Cod

and with the current population at more than 6billion, it is needed. More children will result in more poverty and starvation. Yes, abstinence is a good thing, but it does not work. It goes against our biological nature. In highly religious societies where abortion and contraception was banned, (Ireland is a fine example) women often had to drag their daughters to shady back street doctors; alternatively they used knitting needles on themselves. Disease is another issue, contraception does protect from many diseases, but there are always risks.

As for the population, there is overcrowding in areas, but contraceptives will not solve this problem. Ignorance is the true problem here. If we educate the people of third world countries (not even necessarily within the church), then less pregnancies as a result of rape may occur because some cultures believe that raping virgins is the way to get rid of the AIDS epidemic.
About Ireland, I believe you missed the point? Were you talking about women having to get abortions? That's a whole other issue I won't get into unless it's brought up. At any rate, something as grave a matter as this can never be forced on a society. Even though I use NFP, if it was forced upon me I would have never even thought twice about it. It is a personal decision with a lot of sacrifice involved. The disease issue was covered in my education argument, as most places where AIDS and other diseases are sexually transmitted diseases are at epidemic levels have no idea how these diseases are transmitted.
Of course, there are also exceptions to every rule within the church. In dire situation where a mother is diagnosed that she would die if she had a child, for the safety of the mother it may be okay (depending on the diocese) to use contraceptives or have surgery.
With all this, I'm no expert, but I felt I had to say something against your arguments because I would have said the same things about two years ago, and have since been convinced to the contrary. I imagine that you have alreay fought your battle and are comfortable with where you stand, and good for you for that.

Originally Posted by Godless Cod

I’m really glad to hear that you are strongly against these people, and I’m really sure that your prayers give you comfort, it’s a shame your prayers can’t alter their attitudes. Perhaps you should take an active stance against them, as I don’t think preying for them will alter the outcome of their actions.

I've sent MANY a letter to these gentlemen voiving my discontent to their misguided and intrinsically moronic views toward God.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Wow. Those are the most disproportionate replies I have ever seen!
'Back it up' gets 3 screen fulls, while my thought-out rebuttal gets 4 lines, not counting intro.
At any rate, I'm very impressed by your knowledge and your ability to keep a cool head about what you believe. Most forum members (especially here, it seems) will just start flaming ad nauseum without a thought towards a civil debate (if you could even call our little discussion that), or just outrightly disregard you based on your screen name. Heh.
It all comes down to maturity I suppose . . .
Still, this topic would hopefully attract more astute folk than, say, any topic in the sewers!
Besides, Sass pleaded with us, eh?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I wondered if my comments would come up again. I just didn't know I'd be under such attack. Still, that's okay, as long as it's well-spirited debate.

well, here we go:

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

I would really like to know what these 'good reasons' are, please educate me... because I am a pro-contraceptives gal.

Simply reading your tone here (though tone is tough to extract in such a medium), I'm very doubtful I'll be able to change your mind, nor would I want to. Catholicism and its teachings are NOT for everybody, though we'd like them to be. Everyone has their "cross to bear".
Aside from the inherent risks involved with birth control, like heightened risk to breast cancer (especially if you smoke), blood clots, and mental issues, there are many other reasons not to use birth control. First, I also understand that there are benefits to the drug, like solving hormonal issues and it is also beneficial to certain types of cancer (like you mentioned), but that is a case by case scenario. Also, please keep in mind that the jury is still out on the long term health effects of birth control. While the results are just coming in from women being on the pill for 20 years (and most of them aren't life-threatening) they are finding that it is tougher for those women to get pregnant when they want to. This is almost a non-issue because women that old probably have a slim chance of having a kid anyway, and they have fertility drugs.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

Right on the dot Godless Cod! Also speaking from a woman's point of view, contraception in the form of a birth control pill is a blessing! I can skip the the pain that the period brings me, regulates my periods so that I can plan around them, and they help prevent ovairan cancer.

This may work for you and I'm trying not to judge. My wife also experiences incredible menstual pain, but when she was on the pill she said she didn't feel like herself. She tried several different doses as well, and always felt like a zombie, and had some other, nastier issues as well. This was before she became a practicing Catholic again and I became Catholic. So, I'm not just speaking on a high horse. We've lived it. While it may be difficult to understand why a guy would agree to much less sex, if you love someone enough (including God) you'll do it for them.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

Not all sex happnes willingly... if a woman is on birth control and happens to get raped, that will protect her from a unwanted pregnancey.

I believe I covered this; the Catholic Church does make exceptions in extreme cases. It is a case by case issue and should be left up to the woman (and hopefully her family, and perhaps preist) to make a decision about it. Everything happens for a reason, and while it's a tragedy every time it happens and it angers me deeply that such sex crimes run rampant in our society, it's not the baby's fault that its father is a jerk. Rape can also be attributed to the rise in unprotected sex. Sex crimes have escalated since the advent of contraception.
Also it should be mentioned that birth control, of course, isn't a guarantee. Neither is Natural Family Planning. The difference is NFP is willing to accept a baby because EVERY time we engage in sex we are saying that if we have a baby that we are willing to accept it and take care of it. Most people on birth control buy into the fact that they are totally safe, but when a baby comes it's a tragedy that affects their lives detrimentally. If you had a baby now, would you be responsible enough to take care of it? I have several friends that have children now because their birth control failed, and they still have the mentality that they did before they had the child. The child is just a detriment to their life how they knew it. This leads to awful parenting, and the very essence of an unwanted child.
My wife and I only engage in sex when we feel that a baby is a responsible decision. For a long while we did not have sex, which was VERY difficult, but actually strengthened our relationship exponentially. I matured a lot durin gthis period, and welcomed God into my life. Something that was totally absent before. However, I found that if God could bring me into a relationship that is as strong as my marriage, that he had much more to offer.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

Every woman is different biologiclly, so you can become preganent anytime you have unprotected sex.
And God does not 'will' a conception, man and woman have sex, sperm meets egg... and boom! One baby comming right up! Sounds more like nature to me.

True, regarding the first statement. That's why any sex outside of sex that is welcoming to children is dangerous.
I've addressed this in my above postings, but I have to address one other statement you made about God: if you believe in God, you should believe that every child is a gift from God. Isn't that what most people say when a child is born wantingly? It's a miracle, or a blessing, etc. God should be involved with conceptions, as it is he who sends the child. At least that's my belief. It's definitely okay to disagree.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

Over population is real, and it will result in our own destruction. The more people there are, the more resources will be used up. Contraceptives and aportion will help because unwanted children will not be born and keep the population in check. Education is the key for the AIDS epidemic, teaching that raping virgins is not the answer, how AIDS is spread.

This is an awfully negative tone to the world. "And it will be our demise". Yikes. I agree that we are using up resources at an alarming rate, but we will always devise a new resource to keep the juggernaut going when worse comes to worse. This, however, is a completely different issue.
The next line just hurts. I argue that contraceptives create more unwanted pregnancies because of the mentality it creates. Society tells us that it's safe sex, but we still see a ton of teen pregnancies and unwanted pregnancies. Did the condom break? Did they not know how to use it? Was she on the pill/shot? Did it not work? Etc., etc. Regardless, now there is a life in jeopardy.
Overpopulation is also blown out of proportion here in the states. If you were living in China it would be another story, but here people simply need to take a road trip to discover how much undeveloped land there is. Things like viruses and natural disasters do a much better job than abortions do (if we see the death of thousands as a good thing? Again, yikes!). Most people want to try to stop the crazy amount of deaths that occur due to these natural events and viruses. Tons of money is spent on it. The reality is we can stop the tragedy of abortion, and the loss of SO much life. This is the first time I've heard abortion used as a positive because it keeps the population in check. It's horrible to hear someone take such a dark view of the world: that enough people need to die to keep the balance and not use up MY resources. Disgusting.

I always found myself to be pro-choice before I became Catholic. Now I've ammended my viewpoint, because it's two different issues. I'm pro-life in that I am against aborting life for selfish reasons. Let's face it, most abortions are done because the mother can't take care of it because she's unprepared or something in her life is more important that a baby would "wreck". Unless the baby is going to kill the mother, there is very little reason to abort the baby. There are much better alternatives, like, ya know, adoption? Even though the adoption system almost everywhere is backlogged and full, they still get to live their life.
Still, I REALLY don't think it should be the government's choice to choose for the woman. This will make abortions much less safe, as they will surely still happen if they make it illegal (look at prohibition). We just need to educate the woman about their choices.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

I get a kick how the pope is against condoms, espcially knowing that people are going to have sex anyway, may as well do it safely and help control the spread of AIDS, and remember that not all women in Africa have any control over their sex lifes, if she is not on any contraceptives, she will be having more and more babies then she wants.

Africa is a very difficult problem, and I'm against giving them aid ONLY when they agree to our belief system. You should NEVER force your beliefs on anyone. You can engage them in conversation (much like I'm doing) and fight for what you believe, but you should never dangle aid above someone's head and only give it to them if they accept your terms for giving it to them.
We need to fight AIDS however we can. If that involves handing out condoms and pills then let it be so. We need to stop the pandemic. People aren't going to be abstinent. The best we can do is present ALL the options and explain what the better ones might be. Educate the public, and let them decide which actions to take. Still, the Pope believes that NFP and abstinence is the best way, but he also realizes that not everyone is Catholic or willing to live this way. All we can do is pray that the situation gets better and people are able to get out of the horrible life of prostitution and other activites that make the disease rampant. The answer is not contraceptives alone; it's education, highways, drinking water, public programs, politics, mentality, culture, etc. that will solve this problem. We have a lot to do in this area, and I believe contraception, while maybe being the "easier" and faster way to solve the problem, will not solve it in the long run. Easier and faster always lead to more problems. Look at Iraq.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

It is convenient for a man to say this, afterall you guys get to sit back while the woman has to change her lifestyle for 9 months and go through hours of intense labor. But rather then go into the pro-abortion detailes... read the thread The topic of Abortion
and read the posts made by me and my pal Amanda.

Here's where I'm almost sure you won't listen to a word I say, as I'm a man and what difference does it make to me/why should I even have an opinion on it? The truth is I didn't have to confront my feelings toward it until A) I got married to a woman who had very strong feelings about it and B) joined the Catholic Church. Sure, the pill is a non-issue for men physically, but it sure does affect our lives when our girlfriends/wives/whatever are on it. Plus, guys do have to deal with condoms and knowing how to use them and be responsible with them. Most guys, arguably, aren't.
In the sense of pregnancy, it may be harder for the woman but don't tell me it doesn't affect the guy. If the guy is worth anything he'll be very supportive, understanding and try to help her in any way possible . . . if they want to live.

Relating to your other comments on abortion in the other thread, I believe I addressed most of them here. It has to do with selfishness and taking responsibility. I did notice that you mentioned that abortions do not affect society though. The value of human life in a society directly affects how that society acts toward each other. Have you noticed people caring less and less about each other? I have, and I bet anyone who drives can argue the same way.
Amanda's comments aren't really helping anybody. I don't want to ban abortion as it would make the situation worse, and have stated what I believe would help. However, arguing that I should butt out of other people's lives suggests that I don't care what it's doing to our society as a whole. While I'm not attacking people who have abortions (because frankly how is this pro-life anyway?), I have the right to disagree with what they are doing.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

First off, excellent posts. I'm glad you read through all my babble.
I really sat down last night and pounded it out, and it was good for me to reaffirm my beliefs. Weird too, because I hadn't returned to this thread for a while and then all of a sudden . . .
Anyway, let's get to these new posts!

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

My mom said that too, but I confirmed with my doctor that getting preganent when you stop the pill is just as easy if you never been on them, at least it is that way with the brand that I am taking.

As always, it's different for every woman. You may have a problem, but I highly doubt it. And if your doctor said it's cool then go with it. If it works for you it's not my place to judge. Still, realize that there are safe alternatives.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

I didn't have a boyfirend when I decided to go on the pill, my main reason for going on them was because I was sick of the menstual pain, sometimes it was so bad that I could not even walk. The fact that they cleared my skin was a bonus.

Same reason as my now wife. She ends up taking a lot of ibuprofen to stave off the effects, but for some reason they haven't been as bad lately. I'm curious though, when you went to the doctor and mentioned menstrual pain did they say it was normal? My wife went to several doctors and all they would tell her is that it's "normal" and that she basically needed to deal with it, and then prescribed birth control as the easy fix. She got so frustrated, and is still that way. Most doctors don't even know what NFP is. I can sort of understand this from a certain perspective because only 4% of Catholics use NFP, but the system most doctors use these days to determine ovulation is hopelessly outdated. The rhythm method doesn't work for every woman. NFP involves taking temperatures in the morning, and when your temperature peaks you know you're ovulating. This is also cross checked with cervical fluids. Charming I know, but it works. It's really a fascinating method and the woman learns a lot about her body and the way things REALLY work during the process. My wife also has several friends with very irregular periods, so how do you think the rhythm method works for them? :?
The point is that modern medicine is focused more on the male than the female and has been since its inception. We solved the problem of erectile dysfunction and have worked on balding before touching most women's issues. I think that I can safely say that we have a very limited understanding of what actually goes on "down there". It really sickens me. Diseases women are more prone to are just now coming to the forefront while diseases men are prone to have been worked on for years. It's just stuff like that.
Back to 4% of Catholics using NFP: that statistic alone made it more difficult for me to get behind it. 4%? Must not be all that important to Catholics, huh? The real issue here is the church for a LONG time simply did not talk about sex. Therefore, many generations just simply don't know about NFP. Most churches these days, as a result of vatican II, are teaching it and getting the word out somehow. Still, if someone isn't actively seeking something else they're probably going to end up doing what they've always done, or what society tells them is right (a.k.a safe sex with contraceptive). With many it takes a hard look at themselves and their relationship, and many just don't want to do that. I can understand it. It ain't easy. Also, guys don't want to give up their supposed freedom. Here's the nitty-gritty about NFP though: if you can "survive it" (or live up to the challenge), it does several things:
1) It makes you more mature about sex
2) It makes the sex utterly mind-blowing
3) It makes your relationship struggle, and if it survives, makes it exponentially stronger. What doesn't kill it makes it stronger, right?
They surveyed those on it and they actually have more sex than most couples who have been married and use contraceptives, and they're relationships are stronger. I have to say that having to wait is VERY hard and I had to come to grips with a lot of things, but as a result I feel closer to her and to myself (if that makes sense?). Through sacrifice comes joy. Kind of a big Christian theme, I know.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

I can agree that the pill has certain effects on different women, in my case I got depressed on the first month, after I was ok. One contraceptive I really don't want to try is the patch, my cousin tried them and she said it made her cranky all the time, the pill has been worked on the most so it is the one I will trust the most.

The patch, to my understanding, is a pretty heavy dose of estrogen. Some of the first pills had dangerous amounts of it. These days they're still experimenting with what works. Did you have to try several different pills or did you just stick with one? There are so many pills out there with different doses that it's tough sometimes to find a fit. My wife tried several when the lower doses were still coming out. Even the lowest ones still threw her into a funk. Some women are unaffected. The fact that you mentioned depression worries me a little, but you seemed to have pulled out of it by the way you mentioned it.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

The pill has been proven to be 99.9% effective when taking it correctly, yet I still don't feel that I should rely on it... it's not even the reason I am taking them. My boyfirend and I don't have sex often at all... it is either my low drive of the fact that even though the chances are slim, I am scared to death that I will get pregnant, I really don't want to have a baby now, but if I do get pregnant, most likely I will get a abortion while the fetus is in the early 1st timester, if it has become a baby then I will keep it and raise it.

We were here. My question is, when you have sex do you enjoy it, or are you thinking to heavily about what MIGHT happen that it ruins the mood and the passion? My wife had a real tough time with sex when we first started because of that, and I'm actually amazed our relationship survived it. I thought it was me, and she would get distraught and unsure, etc. It was tough. I understand what was going on now, but back then my immature self couldn't grasp it. I just wanted to express my love, and a lot! I cared about her, but I didn't respect her. Looking back on it I was disgusting, and somewhat uncaring regarding the consequences. I had made up my mind that I would stay if something would have happened, but having irresponsible sex (even though society calls it safe) put our lives, careers, futures, etc. in jeopardy.
We learned about NFP during our marriage "training" that must take place to get married in the church. This is where this whole religious journey began for me. I wasn't thrilled about it and had many hangups about churches, but decided that I was doing it for her and that I would try my damnedest to keep an open mind. Now look at me! An open mind is dangerous around a church! Heh!
Anyway, the more I learned about the teachings of the church the more I wanted to know. They made sense to me. I realize that it isn't for everybody, but I needed to know more after we got married, and that's why I became Catholic, and how my hardened heart was tranformed by God to fully realize his amazing gifts. It was quite a transformation. Hopefully everyone that converts to something has as strong an epiphany as I did, regardless what they're joining.
My big handgups were why the Catholic church is "against" gays (which I found they are not, of course), why women can't be preists (which is complicated to explain), NFP (mentioned), the scandals of the preisthood, and the whole thought of organized religion. Hopefully it's sufficient to say that I overcame these issues through a lot of prayer and reflection. I'm still a newcomer to the Catholic sort of prayer and I struggle with it, but I know I'll get better with time. For a while I felt forced to become Catholic because my wife wanted to use NFP. I said many times that I might as well become Catholic if I'm forced to live it anyway. I hate that I said that now, but I was hardening my heart. I was steadfast in my ways.
I had also always thought that most churches were full of hypocrites. Now I know that they are still hypocrites, but the majority of them just don't know any better. This isn't the case with the preists who raped young boys. They knew better and went and did it anyway, making it frightfully more evil. This can be because of their own sloth toward their religion, or the failing of the church or parents to actually teach them what their faith was all about. Still, there are still people in the church who know better like the preists, but still act poorly. While these people bother me immensely, I can't let it derail my personal journey. It's difficult to get up with some of these people and profess my faith, knowing full well they don't truly understand it. Still, it's their failing or the failing of others during their journey in the church, not mine. I feel that I do have a responsibility to try to reach out to these people, but it's difficult to approach them without feeling holier than them or judging. I feel it though, because it affects the church as a whole. The church is likened to the body of Christ, and when a part of it is weak, we are all weakened. The key is knowing that it won't make my faith waiver, and that I can pray for them to soften their hearts as I did. Plus, I believe that the parish I go to is a very strong and forward thinking one, but you still see people sneak in late, receive communion, and leave early. It's just another case of not understanding the full faith. They say it's oftentimes the converts who know more about their faith. This to me was appalling! But, how you teach children about faith is different than how you teach adults, and when most kids are confirmed at 15 or 16 these days, they aren't prepared or mature enough to fully understand the challenges that await them. You have to meet it head on with real challenges. For the longest time the church simply let them go into the world with very little knowledge about their faith and hoped that they would "find the way". This is quite sad, as for most it's the most timultuous time of their lives, when they need God the most. While the church is getting better at it, it will take time.
It is a personal journey though. I pray that the choice to be confirmed isn't affected by peer pressure (but I know it is), as it should be a major life choice. Some just regard it as the next inevitable step, I'm sure.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

I am a pagen, so I would be thanking a goddess, Bastet is the one I respect the most, she is the cat goddess of life and happiness, I would thank for the soul that the child is born with

I'm glad it works for you. My sister is a pagan, and I'm just glad she found something that she can connect with spritually. While I believe that the true path is through Jesus Christ, I also believe that God reveals himself to us through various means. We all need a path to follow, and God recognizes that.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

Actually I didn't say that abortion is meant for population control, but when you look at the number of abortions going on all over the world... that is a lot
fetuses that didn't become babies. I still really do believe that overpopulation is getting out of hand, so much so that mother nature is thinking of ways to cull us, such as natural desasters and disease.
It is something that I would never wish on anyone, I feel awful about all these terrible things that are happening to people overseas, and donate to relief efforts, but the fact that our population needs to be lowered for the sake of the planet is a cold real fact. It is cruel, but still true.

I do agree that there is an inherent balance to nature, and it (being God, Satan, Mother Nature, etc.) will correct it, and violently if need be.
We aren't being kind to our planet and simply shoving it into a corner for future generations to deal with is both abhorrent and irresponsible.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

The world has been dark to me, so I can see why I would look at the world in a negative view. As I have mentioned, I do not view abortion at a means of population control, I look at it as if Marysue next door wanted a abortion, it has got nothing to do with me, that is what 'choice' is about, same as if I get pregnent, I can allow it to develop if I want to.

The world is a scary place. There is no doubt about it. It's dangerous and unfriendly. If I found out someone I know was getting an abortion I might feel the need to discuss it, but in the end it's their choice. I can't make them do anything, and the last people I want forcing a decision down someone's throat is the government. With the case of "Mary Sue", I would only get involved if I knew her personally. I would have an adverse affect otherwise. "Here's the crazy God guy coming to say we're all going to Hell." It isn't my place, and it's arrogant to think that it is. Still, I pray for a different outcome.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

If mother nature decides to take me with a earthquake or bird flu, then that is fine by me. I don't think that our population needs to be controlled for my sake at all.... it is because of us that green house gas is getting out of hand and the polar bear have less ice to hunt on.

Very true. Nothing else really to say here.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

I guess the question I would really like to ask in this case is... A 15 year old girl is walking home, she get mugged and raped on the way home and is pregnent as a result, what do you think should happen?

Several things.
I'd want her to seek consolation in her family and hopefully her religion if she has one. Rape is awful, but it's exponentially worse without a support network of some sort.
I'd want her to file charges and help police find the criminal, as he should definitely be held accountable for his actions. Male rapists just don't think of the long term consequences, and though there are less, female ones probably don't either. Why should they? If they are awful enough to invade someone's rights on such a primal level, why would they ever think about consequences?
Lastly, I'd want her to make some decision about the baby, if there is one, that also respects the life of the child. If there are real and very significant reasons for her to have an abortion (as mentioned before), then that may be the way to go. For the more likely result (that she and the baby are healthy), she should make a decision to adopt, or keep the baby and raise it within the family. There are many ways to deal with the pain and mental anguish of a rape. Hopefully she would learn to love the child, because it is not born with the sins of the father. The mother would have to disconnect the act with the child in order to love it. Otherwise it "sits as a daily reminder of what he did to me." This obviously wouldn't give way to decent parenting.
I can't solve rape with religion. The two don't equate. Rape is mostly about power and control, and they won't find God with that mentality. We can only pray, and help spread the Word of God responsibly. Change your thoughts and the world may change with you. Then rape and other terrible societal afflictions may decline because people see the truth. That's the true goal of religion. Change enough people's hearts and minds so that they aren't seeking such worldly pleasures (however backwards they might be), but seeking God.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

I fully agree with you there! I personally thing adoption is better to do in this day and age. There are so many children out there with no home or family, some are even kids that where carried full term instead of being aborted. I think we should look after these kids first instead of making more.

Society needs to be much more responsible in this aspect. This seems to be the hidden issue of all of our sex problems. The children. Are they swept under the rug and forgotten?
I plan, when we are ready as a couple, to perhaps have children and also adopt them. People need to stop thinking about adoption as an option only if they are unable to have children. Why not now?
While it is difficult to get past all of the issues that adoption inevitably entails, like seeking biological parents and the like, it is no excuse to shy away from the prospect of potentially saving a life. Still, it's a tough decision, and we'll need to discuss it fully when the time is right.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

You know shadowlink, if the catholics in my area where like you, I would have more friends, but they are not. It is nice to know that someone wants the world to be a utopia where all children are born in a place that they can grow up happy, healthy, and that poverty is a thing of the past... but it is sad to say that it is not going to happen, especially they way humanity is now, and no religion or god can fix it.

The way people regard religion today, I agree with that statement, but only begrudgingly so. It's sad that the Catholics in your area aren't like me. While that may sound arrogant, I believe that every Catholic, if they truly understand their faith, should feel the same way. If they have not made the decision in their own heart to truly follow Jesus and his teachings, then they have a tough journey ahead of them to find that truth and come to grips with it, and I'll pray for them. I mentioned hypocrites before, and if any Catholic ever condemns anyone to Hell, it should be immediately apparent that they do not understand their faith. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, despite their supposed extensive knowledge of the Bible, have no CLUE as to what it truly holds! I know this because of their statements and actions. They condemn people. It is not our place to judge. It is our place to pray, live a life that models Jesus', and spread the Word. It is all too easy to overstep our bounds when we feel strongly about something, but we must know our place.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

Not all pregnancy's happen because they are wanted (ie rape) and not all abortions happen because the mother wants it to (ie issues with fetus or mom) and if someone is getting a abortion for another reason, that is not my business, same as if the gay couple next door wants to marry.

While I think I've covered most of that above, the part about gay marriage intrigues me. I don't believe in gay marriage, but I do believe in gay union. Their rights as human beings should not be affected because they can't get officially married. Gay couples should be able to share the same benefits under the law that heterosexual couples do. Still, gay marriage to me is an oxymoron. It doesn't make sense from a Catholic standpoint if you know what it means to get married in the Catholic church. It's like a gay preist doesn't make sense to me. If a preist is gay, but abstinent, then he has no reason to profess the fact that he's gay or has gay thoughts because that is his personal struggle. He is no longer a gay preist, he's a preist who struggles with gay thoughts. Then he's free to be a preist, as far as I know. If he's having relations with men, then he shouldn't be a preist. He's breaking his vows with God in the latter case.
It's the church's teaching that homosexuality is a sin that is overcomeable. I believe that, and I believe it is something some people are born with, and something people can be enticed to do as well. I can simply say that it is their "cross to bear", but I know I actually have to come to grips with it to fully understand my faith. It would be very difficult to find yourself sexually and then recognize that your religion does not support it. Still, it doesn't support the sex lives of most Americans because we've become such an irresponsible society sexually.
The church doesn't hate or condemn gays, as some people believe, but I argue that they don't do a very good job to help them with the "struggle" of being gay if they truly believe it's overcomeable. It's just too touchy of a subject. Perhaps as the church evolves more, programs will appear to try and help gays with their sins. Still, the person has to be willing to confront that, and to confront yourself is one of the scariest things one can do. It is also very hard to make the person feel welcome and not guilty, and to appraoch them in a way that isn't judgmental.
No church that I know of has ever been good about talking about sex. As much as sex is apparent in our society, we aren't ready to accept its consequences and talk about it maturely. The situation will surely get worse before it gets better, and that is sad. I wish I didn't have such a negative attitude about it, but it's tough to see the positive in such issues. They're too overwhelming for one person.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

I don't like the reality of things either, I want to live in a moral and ideal world but I know that it's just not going to happen.

There will always be hatred and malice in the world because the devil is strong, and we are weak. There will always be a balance of good and evil. We just have to pray that we can tip that scale farther to the side of what is right and good. The fact that we want a utopia and dream of it is a good sign. Hope and prayer are key.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

Yup, my doc said that everything is ok, the pain is normal as long its not out of control or anything. Some months where ok and other months where 'I gotta lay down' pain. But thanks to the pill, I can skip that nonsense.

They do, that is why the risk of getting a blood clot is far higher with the patch then it is with the pill. The pill has come a long way, and it is still being worked on to make it more safer then it is now. So far I have only tried one brand, and they are doing quite well for me. I wasn't surprised
with the depresstion, I have a problem with depresstion anyway.

Both really, I enjoy it but I also think what might happen. I have a very low sex drive and I also may be having the same issue your wife had too. My boyfriend always tries to assure me that he understands, but c'mon! I know that he still wants it, he is a man after all, I can't really blame him. That made me stressed to, so you two are not alone with these feelings.

Depression affects every part of your life. Appetite, motivation, and even sex drive. Don't be ashamed to seek help. I was just diagnosed with depression. I was also the same way as your b/f, but understand that it's hard to repress those sexual feelings as a guy. Just try not to assume we're ALWAYS thinking about sex.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

Marriage training?! ooh boy... the funny thing is I am a pagen dating a catholic, most likely we will get married and he will be required to take the training... I bet we are going to get a lot of odd looks when they figure out who I am. My b/f may be a catholic, but there are times that he is more liberal than I am and looks at the realities and corruption of this world harsher than I do. I don't see how living married is going to be different then living commonlaw, so why do the catholic church require marrage training?

If the church you go to is any good, they won't judge you.
I'm a more liberal Catholic as well. I considered myself very liberal when I went into the church, but I was able to understand the connections in several of the things they taught. Therefore I still consider myself liberal, but it's like a modified liberal. I guess you can say that I fight hard to keep an open mind. I'll vote conservative if they put up a good argument. The only thing that turns me off is when the person trying to change my mind is close-minded. If I can't get through to them, why are they trying to get through to me?
As for the training, have you noticed all the divorces lately? They just want to make sure that you're as compatible as you think you are through several different methods. It seemed lame and pretentious to me to assume that we didn't know if we were compatible, but we did learn a lot about each other through the course of the training. It forces you to talk about big things like future plans, careers, kids, money, etc.: the things people most often get divorced over. It also forces you not to take such a flippant attitude toward getting married which society, IMO, has taken and supports. It's not just Vegas and drive-through chapels either. We want that instant gratification of getting married and none of the other muck that tends to come with it. Marriage is a choice everyday, and it should be difficult. Anything worth doing should be a little challenging. Anything worth doing for life should be a big challenge.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

Being gay is as natural as being straight as far as I am concerned... being gay does not mean that they think more about sex then a straight person, they just prefer the same sex thats all, which is why I don't see the problem with preists being gay. When it comes to mother nature, I would like to think of it as a way of natural population control, same sex couples can't conceive can they.

When preists get ordained within the Catholic church, they take vows (or basically get married) to the church. While it may be difficult to understand, the preist is the bridegroom and the church is the bride. The church is seen as the woman, or mother. Woman can't be preists because then that union would be a same sex marriage. That is also why a gay preist doesn't really make sense, becuase if they prefer men, why would they marry a woman? The preisthood has also always been men because they are there to imitate Jesus for us and offer him up to us in the Eucharist. Jesus himself also only chose men to be his Apostles, and not because the men were influential in their time.
Anyway, this probably won't make sense unless you've studied it as much as I have. I'm not saying that to be pretentious (like a Tom Cruise sort of statement), but it takes a lot of prayer and open-mindedness to know why. I still struggle with it some days, especially when I have to defend it to very strong women. There are also several instances in scripture and it outlines reasons in the Catechism that I won't go into here because it would be too preachy and I'm not comfortable with that. I came to grips with it in order to become Catholic, and I'll leave it at that.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

It bothers me too, every religion, no matter the goodness they teach, tend to have a few bad apples.

What you said in response to my 15 year old girl rape scenario makes sense, but what could happen in real life would depend on the girl. If it happened to me, first I would be tramatized, then I'd get the guy found and arrested, then beat him to a pulp, and then decide what to do with the fetus. If I kept it, I would definitely make the guy responsible for his actions.

I agree that it would completely depend on the girl because everyone reacts to trauma differently.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

I know I will be attacked for this, but to me a fetus is not a child until it is developed enough to be taken out of the womb and survive in a incubator.

The question of when a life becomes a life is a difficult one. Catholics believe that at the moment of conception, where God bestows the life upon the couple, is the moment where life begins. That life should be treated as such: an unimagineable joy and gift from God himself, for its entire life.

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko

I completely agree. I enjoy learning about different religions and I really do think that christanity and islam are decent faiths when followed correctly, but I rather follow a religion that holds women in higher value like paganism... I still don't understand why women can't be a preist in the catholic church.

Being gay is not a struggle, it is as natural as being straight, the person is just attracted to the same gender, at leaset they are attracted to A gender like everyone else (unless you are asexual) I have made my statement on same-sex couples anyway so I won't blabber on....

Already discussed in my above posts, as the issues sort of intertwine.
This has been really nice for me because I've learned quite a bit about my own faith while learning some about others.
I definitely need to gain more perspective of other religions to know how my newfound religion clashes and melds with them. I remember taking a religions class in college, but it was so broad-based that I only gained a limited and basic understanding of each. There are so many with so many intricate details involved with them that it almost wouldn't be fair to the student to make them learn it all. Plus, IMO, you have to be in a certain state of mind to REALLY want to know.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Catholic for Dummies isn't entirely accurate.
Better stick to books with the Catholic Seal of Approval:
"Imprimi Potest,"
"Nihil Obstat,"
and "Imprimatur"

---The "Nihil Obstat" and "Imprimatur" are official declarations that a book or pamphlet is free of doctrinal or moral error. No implication is contained therein that those who have granted the Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur agree with the content, opinions or statements expressed.

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FELIPE NO

FallDragon, you're wrong on so many counts I don't know where to start!

Unfortunately I don't have the time to provide all the evidence that the Catholic Church provided for me when I was learning all of this stuff.

I do need to say this though:

Originally Posted by FallDragon

What you means to say is, the Catholic church can legitimize their discrimination by accepting doctrines that say discrimination is OK. Of course, nobody expects Catholicism to the be pillar of equality in the Christian arena. I mean, they don't even let fellow Christians take communion with them.

This is VERY offensive, so be careful who you say this to. Unfortunately, this is a straight case of ignorance of what communion is in the Catholic Church. And how does the Catholic Church discriminate? Against who?
Anyway, I have a friend that was in my RCIA class that really struggles with the communion thing because his family would not be able to take communion at his wedding. This is very difficult to explain fully, but the reason Catholics "don't let" other Christians take communion is because we believe that the Eucharist is the true body and blood of Christ. ALL other christian religions do not believe this, so they are not in communion with our beliefs. Therefore, they cannot partake of it.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

Isn't it a bit ignorant to assume this to be an absolute truth considering there's no scriptural basis for it?

So many people argue that there is no scriptural basis for anything that Catholics believe. Instead of fleshing out every argument for you, I have to direct you to the Catachism of the Catholic Church. It fleshes out all that we believe and provides scriptural basis. I doubt that you'll bother because you're already attacking my beliefs anyway.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

No, what you're saying we need to do is education woman about the choices and then tell them which one is correct according to your personal religious preferences, and expect them to approve of your critique of their life.

Obviously you didn't read through ANY of my previous posts, because you'd find that I was very careful in trying to avoid pressing my beliefs on anyone. It's ALWAYS they're choice. All I can do is pray and then simply disagree if they make a decision I don't believe in.

There is a growing problem of relativism in many nations that leads to many problems. People that believe in something should be able to speak about it and fight for their beliefs. Relativism causes people to be afraid of voicing their beliefs because of the risk of offending someone else or being forced to defend their beliefs and possibly shake their faith. People don't realize that without shaking your faith now and then it never grows. That's sad.

I'm not really afraid of your arguments because they boil down to personal attacks and ignorance toward my faith. For the record, throwing Freakonomics at me doesn't add much validity to your arguments. A study done between 1991 to 2001 has so many other variables involved that it might not be completely accurate. I haven't read it but based on what you say it sounds like it may draw conclusions based on what the doc believes is true.
Plus, contraceptives go WAY farther back than 1991. Look at the big picture.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

Sorry to break it to you, but when you're against gays getting civil unions, you're "against" gays. It means you don't want them to have equal rights and privledges according to sexual preference, which is exactly why the Catholic church is against Gay unions.

I don't really know how to respond to this other than being offended. I think I even said that I want desperately for gays to have equal rights under the law. It is hopelessly discriminatory to deny people rights based on sexual preference.
PLEASE read my other posts on this one page back. I think you'll find that you're putting words in my mouth (which I don't appreciate) and that you're completely missing my point on the subject!

Originally Posted by FallDragon

Just know that the Catholic doctrine on when life starts isn't scriptural.

Wrong. See above posts.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by FallDragon

Women don't have an equal chance in moving up the catholic ranks. That's called sexual discrimination. They don't want gays to be able to get civil unions. That's also called sexual discrimination.

I've addressed this in another post. It's way too complicated to explain here.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

I'm sorry, I had assumed that since you're Catholic, you believe things that the Church does, such as the corruption of America by way of gay marriage. So, to be clear, you think gays should be allowed civil unions? You do realize that the Catholic church is against this?

I do believe in all things the Catholic church does. It was part of my vows during confirmation. The official position of the church is that we love gay people, but simply cannot condone their sexual actions. As they say, it is their cross to bear. So therefore, I can CERTAINLY believe that they should have equal rights, I just don't agree or believe in their behavior. That's my cross to bear.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

Correct. But I don't really care. Those are doctrines of Catholicism, not scriptural. What foundation do they have? None. All they cause is division, and make fellow Christians feel that Catholicism is an exclusive, elitist community. You think Jesus is up in Heaven going, "Good job guys! Don't let that other 80% of Christianity take communion with you! They're a bunch of bums who don't know the true meaning of it."??

This post proves that you aren't reading my posts. Why bother to continue? Still, I feel the need . . .
I don't feel elitist at all. "We believe in ONE, HOLY, Catholic, and Apostolic church" is what we say in the Nicene creed. Catholic also means "universal". We want others to join our church (just like every other faith) but have to respect other's faiths while remaining true to our own. Respecting is a BIG part of being Catholic. I think a lot of people have a lot of misconceptions about Catholics, and there are many stereotypes related to it. They had to come from somewhere, but I think people take it to an extreme. Obviously Catholics do this too. All I can do is be the best role model Catholic I can be. It's very hard to live like Jesus, especially when our beliefs are under attack.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

Ahh here we go with the classic "I can't really provide any scriptures for you to prove what I believe, but I'm going to cry about you attacking my beliefs." Yes I'm attacking them. Boo hoo. How about you provide ONE SCRIPTURE that says life starts at conception, and then you'll be able to attack MY beliefs!

I'm busy. I don't have time to hunt through the Bible to prove something to somebody who won't read it and just brush it off. Plus, I'm new at this. I'm still reading the Bible. Answers for this, again, can be found in teh Catechism. If you're truly interested, go to B&N and read a random line. There's an index.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

You seem to be missing the difference between the word "pressing" and the word "forcing." You DO want to press your beliefs on others, but you're not going to force them to by putting a gun to their head. If given the option to talk to someone facing abortion, you would say the correct, spiritually holy choice is having the baby. This is what's called pressing your beliefs on someone.

I argue that you are pressing your disbelief onto me. Think about that. Please. It's a major problem these days.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

Actually, hardly any of my post was a personal attack. I asked for statistical evidence of what you say, and for scriptures/verses to back up your beliefs. Instead you provide neither, and start crying about how mean I'm being to you. Put out or get out.

My beliefs are personal. You're attacking my beliefs, therefore it's personal. BTW, where is your scripture. Perhaps if I had something to focus on. If not, it's a little overwhelming to have to counterpoint every point you made via scripture. It's a lot to ask. Too busy, sorry.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

I find it ironic that you spend a good deal of your reply complaining about how I'm attacking your beliefs, and then here you say that it's a GOOD thing. Nice hypocrisy.

The relativism comment was an attempt to address the other side of the argument and bring up what I (and the Pope and a secular Italian Head of Senate) feel is a major problem with society today. Book: Without Roots.
Sorry you misunderstood it.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

But the Church does not believe they should have equal rights, because the Church doesn't think they should be allowed civil unions. How do you respond to this?

The church is actually undefined about this right now. They are against the term gay marriage because it is a contradiction of terms. In the church, a marriage is always between a man and a woman. Society says that this may not be true. I believe differently. My point is I want civil discrimination is ended by giving them equal rights under the law. The church isn't discriminating against gays, we just can't condone their actions because we don't believe in it.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

It doesn't matter whether you feel the Catholic church is respectful, and it doesn't matter whether the Church feels itself to be respectful. Catholicism, no matter the reason, still excludes other Christians from partaking in communion. My point is that, no matter what your explanations say, you're still excluding Christians in something that all other Christian communities aren't exclusive on, and therefore making them feel like you're an elitist group. The Church's stance against civil unions for gays make the gay community feel threatened by the Chuch. You can have as many explanations and reasons as you like, but you need to pay more attention to the reality that others see, the reality of what the Church says and does to other organizations. The Church offends people not because people believe in stereotypes, but because Christians go to Catholic services and feel excluded, and gays to Catholic services and feel unwelcome and misunderstood. This is the reality of the Church and it's policies.

This is just a misunderstanding. Don't be so offended.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

Well, I'd be worried if I were you. Not being able to provide any verses for something you have such deep convictions in will make you look like a blind follower.

I know the Catechism pretty well (I only converted this May) and was swayed during the year long class that I went to of my own volition that becomeing Catholic was the right thing for ME. It isn't for everybody, though we'd like it to be.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

Yes, if by pressing you mean I am presenting my views of what's correct, and why your views are wrong. What's the big deal? Besides, you ignored my point that you DO press your beliefs on abortion, you just don't force them. There's a difference.

The old "I'm right you're wrong" argument, eh? Good one. I got your "argument" about pressed and forced. If I believe something strongly, shouldn't I feel obligated to speak my mind? Isn't that my right in this country? THAT one hasn't been stripped from me yet!

Originally Posted by FallDragon

My scripture? My argument was that no scripture exists supporting the idea of a soul existing as soon as the sperm joins the egg. The burden of scripture is on you, since you're the one claiming the Bible says something about it.

As for my other requests for proof, they concerned these two comments you made:

"I did notice that you mentioned that abortions do not affect society though. The value of human life in a society directly affects how that society acts toward each other."

and

"Sex crimes have escalated since the advent of contraception."

So, in order for me to believe what you're saying, you'll need to give me some proof. Otherwise, why should I believe you?

I WILL get back to you on this. Just not now.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

Well by that line of logic you can say that a dead human is a "person." The argument mainly revolves around the idea of when souls or consciousness enters the human body, because without a soul or consciousness, what would it mean to be a person? Nothing.

Isn't this just trolling at some point? He's just arguing with everyone saying they're wrong with no real argument besides that he thinks that they are wrong. Hmmm . . .
Definition please?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll#In_Internet_Forums

A person who enters unknown forums who bashes and insults forum members with unfounded arguments, or anyone that enters any sort of internet community for the sole purpose of harassing others is often referred to as a troll.

Ah, I thought I was right. He's on the border here, IMO . . .

There's nowhere I can't reach.

When it crosses lines and is mostly one-sided, yes.

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

They also have no business clogging up our court rooms attempting to remove science and impose their superstitious nonsense in the public classroom. Many people are finally fed up with this and are much on their guard towards the religious who are no longer contempt with the constitution which gives every person the freedom not only of religion but from religion.

Umm . . . I thought it was the science nuts trying to remove God from the Pledge of Allegience, and "Intelligent Design" is the hopelessly PC way of skating the line between atheism and religion.
I do agree that whoever was trying to get rid of evolution and Darwinism is an idiot. That's censorship. Everyone should have a full plate to choose from when it comes time to make a decision. Nothing should be removed because someone else thinks it's not good for you.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?