[Multiplatform] Official Final Fantasy XIII Thread

BECAUSE KOTAKU IS SUCH A RELIABLE SOURCE OF INFORMATION LIKE THAT UPCOMING X-BOX LIVE UPDATE

How ya doing, buddy?

Some dude in Hollywood named his kid Kal-El. Assume the same point of intelligence for this guy's parents and you'll be just fine.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

The dude is Louis "Sweet Lou" Dunbar/Gizmo from the Super Globe Trotters. Look at him. Coolest thing this game has thus far.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Zell wasn't useless, just really annoying. His limit break has a comparably high damage output potential to Irvine without the need of Ammo. Which pretty much allows him to out ass kick the rest of the cast if you just dedicate yourself to doing Circle, X and then Down Up over and over again, turning 4 seconds into a dead boss or difficult monster thanks to his broken ass limit break.

This is available right from the start of the game, so Zell is pretty much a great character out of the gate, provided you're exploiting limit breaks and staying at low HP/slamming Circle over and over to get the limit break activation.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Shin

But there's no need to bother with that if you're junctioning properly. If you can be arsed to keep his hp low and endlessly enter the same move combinations then you can probably be arsed to use your GF's abilities and drawing from monsters to have everyone junctioning Firaga and Blizzaga right after the fire cave at the beginning. Once you've got 100 Firaga's junctioned to your strength stat, the entire first two discs struggle to throw a fight at you you can't win in a round or two of plain attacking.

Note that I said "a boss or difficult monster." Traditional battles, there are far better characters to use. For bigger threats, there's usually less risk with Zell because his limit break is a giant vacuum for time where the opposition cannot attack, meanwhile he's just slapping the shit out of them. It's far more time efficient than having to draw the fuck out of magic if you just want to progress, and it's an option you have if you're fighting things like a boss where you haven't been sucking 9 spells out of monsters for 12 turns to get 100 of a spell. For things like, say, Red Dragons... you do have Quistis and Degenerator, but if for god knows what reason that whiffs, Zell is guaranteed damage and probably death. He's clean up and/or the safe route. Selphie has The End, but you need set ups like Aura and whatever makes the party invincible, in order to prevent getting wiped and you also need to hope it comes up. Zell is safe and easy.

He's not the most likable character, but who the fuck in Final Fantasy VIII really is save for like maybe 1 or 2 characters? He's not useless.

Most amazing jew boots

Things like Marlboros and Red Dragons didn't care what you had junctioned, so high damage output and those handy instant kill techniques that Selphie and Quistis had were a must. Lionheart is okay, but one use of Zell's Limit Break does more damage if you perform it properly. He only gets a few seconds, but you can easily deal out more damage than Lionheart if you're repeating the same 2 moves over and over again.

That's quite a quandary, Shin. The mass market appeal really makes it seem to me that the games are as involving or as hard as you want to make it. Nothing is forcing you to 100% an RPG, though as folks who play games regularly, it's our OCD impulse that makes us use that as an arbitrary standard of judgment for this stuff.

Personally, I found, say, Final Fantasy VI, to be far more fun when I was trying to progress at the lowest level possible and manage optimal stat growth, rather than forcing myself to level up and/or junction until I was god at the earliest moment possible. I realize that that's not much of an exciting option either, but we're really not dealing with incredibly flexible play systems in some of these games. No, it's really not an exciting game when you are smashing the confirm button and killing things in one hit, but the truth of the matter is that not many RPGs avoid that without becoming tedious in many instances. Atlus' stuff comes to mind, their earlier R&D1 games. To me, Final Fantasy is far more involving when approached from that respect.

You can just level up and remove all the strategy from certain boss fights, but nothing stops you from going in at a low level to try and wreck shit as well. I don't know what the optimal experience is for most folks, but I can only stomach so much of the grind, so I try to play these games without having to worry about that power leveling nonsense. They hold up much better with some sense of flow and progression, rather than stagnation and basically sneezing on everything you run into until it dies.

Those are valid points you make, but the kicker is that whole "play how you want" stuff. Try playing an older Final Fantasy without power leveling. I realize that you know what's more efficient, but it really is a different experience.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Shin

I see your point but to be honest, going in at a lower level is more a matter of luck rather than neccessarily coming up with a great tactic to win the fight at that level. There's never enough depth to the options to do much else than bludgeon your way through, especially since most FF bosses are immune to status effects which is pretty much the limit of most FF's departure from attack or blast with a spell.

I want to touch on a few points, though I realize that you said that it's probably not your cup of tea.

I disagree that it's a matter of luck, mostly on the grounds that the games aren't that hard. Final Fantasy XII appeals to you probably because it's one of the least conventional games in the series, and that's cool stuff. Many Final Fantasies are very basic, they stick to the fundamentals of Japanese RPGs. I think a game like Final Fantasy IV is something most folks played for the story rather than atrocious bullshit drop rates, but it is heralded in Japan as one of the greatest RPGs they've had to offer. It's certainly more popular there than, say, Final Fantasy VI. Which some would argue was a better game (and then we'd all laugh because "Vanish/Doom/X-Zone").

It really depends on the Final Fantasy, as far as low level (I'd say "organic" or "natural" or "not power leveled", whatever you prefer and is less annoying, go with that) play is concerned. The options you have in Final Fantasy VIII in comparison to Final Fantasy VI, for instance, are very different. It's much easier properly break Final Fantasy VIII, and there was a bit of fun in that, to be honest. Until, like you point out, you realize how superficial that can be. If you don't like the game enough for what it has, I guess there's really no reconciling that. It is what it is.

Example:

To truly be a powerhouse in Final Fantasy VI, you not only have to level up (though that can be a significant power boost), you also have to use the right Magicite in order to get certain stat boosts during those level ups. Speed was impossible to raise until you got Odin in Final Fantasy VI. In Final Fantasy VIII, your stats are determined by junctions, so there's no reason to level up as you say. You just need to get the right spells, know the right areas to be in. As you reach that higher level of power, more of the options you used to have become obsolete, but the road to getting there is vastly different because of something as simple as how the game awards you stat boosts and how enemies function.

It's funny that you mention FF bosses being immune to status effects. I believe, depending on the game, many of them can be poisoned, blinded, or silenced in some cases. Final Fantasy XII is actually the game where status effects were very cumbersome to utilize. I know that Meltdown in Final Fantasy VIII was a must on certain foes.

Playing through without power leveling, there's certain elements to take into consideration with what characters bring to the table, what items you can afford without wasting too much money, and what kind of magic system is in place. Final Fantasy gives you the tools you need to win, and there is a structure and depth there if you want to look for it. These games, as much shit as they can catch, wouldn't be popular if they didn't have some kind of structure to them to hook folks.

Admittedly, my knowledge about Final Fantasy VII is limited as far as not Maxing out Materia is concerned, but I was well aware of stuff like machines taking double damage from Lightning spells and such. You take those kind of factors and you look at the other games in the series with a similar eye and you'll see that playing through normally isn't a matter of luck, it's just a matter of understanding your options. Luck can be a factor in RPGs, but I find that's more the realm of the guys who made the SaGa games rather than Final Fantasy.

Based on the ones I know a bit more thoroughly, Final Fantasy VI being the easiest example, you have a pretty well rounded cast with various abilities and damage potential. You walk into an area, get the lay of the land, and you start gauging what enemies are there, what they're capable of doing and how you can prepare for those things. Someone has a weakness to fire? Terra's gotta be in your party now. Worried about MP but still need to hit all opponent's in the area? Who's available? Edgar at that point in the game? Great, Auto-Crossbow is free "target all" damage. I could go on, but basically it's offering as much "strategy" and "structure" as many other Japanese RPGs.

There's always the chance of getting wiped or making a bad decision, but that risk is always there if you're making the risk of not being overpowered in favor of trying to progress as quickly as possible. That's the whole point, to have some sense of danger and challenge while you play the game. Some folks do this because they do play for the story. I made note that in your "Last Remnant Review" you ask "Who plays RPGs for story anyway?" or some such. This kind of play style caters to folks who factor in that presentation into their enjoyment. Sometimes they suffer for it, other times they excel.

Not many of them are different from each other in this respect, it's when you start adding billions of subsystems that players either flock or flee to different offerings from different companies.

That's a verbose but, sadly, very basic grasp of the genre. If I really loved it the way I love, say, fighting games, I could probably elaborate better. But there's certainly more there than what I think you're willing to play for. I would definitely say "luck" isn't as much of a factor as you say it is. I'd say it's more the decision of what you find fun and what you find tedious.

FELIPE NO

I'd say your taste compares to folks who like Guilty Gear in comparison to Super Street Fighter II Turbo. Both are valid experiences, but they're completely different from each other as far as the core game is concerned. Street Fighter is much more about fundamentals and Guilty Gear touches on rushdown and insane combos. Shin Megami Tensei 3 is my favorite RPG on the PS2, and it offers a completely different experience as well. While Final Fantasy wins on production values, Shin Megami Tensei is just a better game. But I think trying to wager it down based on the likelihood of death doesn't quite work, as success or failure don't exactly touch on shades of enjoyment for some folks.

Again, that sense of progression forward in RPGs is what you don't place a lot of value on, you enjoy the combat systems. Success to people who play Final Fantasy means how quickly they can experience the next part of the story, how awesome their party is while trying to do so. Efficiency as you call it. They don't need to die, they just need to be hindered. Survival is arbitrary in that type of game. You acknowledged that yourself, but it's important to note that a direct comparison means looking at games trying to accomplish different objectives.

There's no point trying to skew variety that way. We have two types of games, we have different audiences pleased, we want that variety to exist. I don't know when you played VI, but I was a youth when I first played through it, then I played through it again when it was re-released on the GBA. For its time, it was far from generic or typical, in the medium it was in, anyway. I mean, if you want to judge it by the standards of music or literature or movies, just bear in mind that it isn't any of those things before it is a video game. I don't think there's any sense trying to revise history to judge it by today's standards, for a video game anyway. Not that I'd disagree that it isn't the divine work or some shit.

These folks don't enjoy Shin Megami Tensei's tight gameplay since they find the narrative to not be to their liking. I could go on, but we'd end up agreeing with each other on Shin Megami Tensei among other things, and I don't really disagree with your assessment as far as what I feel is a better game experience.

Final Fantasy is about the fundamentals of what Final Fantasy IV established. It's valued for that, I know I said this earlier but it bears repeating. I think that audience is always going to be around, but Square-Enix has always been making efforts to train up the series if you look at it. There's some sense of progression, I'm really not sure what's going to represent the basic JRPG if Final Fantasy continues the way Final Fantasy XII went. I don't think XII was perfect, but I don't attack it the way I imagine some folks will when they see the title.

I realize you'd call their stories rubbish and their music laughable, but the fact of the matter is that those elements of presentation do matter, they are part of the game and their appeal. I don't really like it either, we have a million jokes in response for it, but there we go. For the medium they are in, which is what they are, the stories and music are more than fine. The folks who hate Final Fantasy VIII or X want to run in and go NUH UH!, but the sales don't lie there. Yes, these aren't refined tastes, but at the same time I could argue that shit isn't as bad as its made out to be. Except VIII, fuck that game.

XIII is done by the Kingdom Hearts team. Like them or not, it's not exactly going to be 100 percent conventional.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

For now they're just trying to whet their core audience's appetite with character previews and such. This is prime time for folks to start being storyline scrubs, but it's a Japanese RPG so it's not like they aren't in the right place for it. If some kind of all gameplay trailer gets released, like there was with Last Remnant, I'd definitely take a look at it. Part of The Last Remnant's appeal for me was the fact that I had absolutely no clue what was going on visually as well as not knowing Japanese for the onscreen text. I thought it was gonna be like Dynasty Warriors or some shit.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Fuck me if I can keep track of all 3 of those productions, hah. Know anything about vanilla XIII's gameplay, Kairi?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Some FFXIII related countdown has gone up. No clue what it's for, though there's no North American page related to it so it's all Europe love.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.