Why is the murder rate in the US so high?

Yeah, because Black people have had absolutely zero disadvantages throughout their entire history. Yup yup, they're just all delinquents of society because it's just always been so "hip."

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Tesla

I didn't say that was the reason why there are surprising statistics among the black population; however, I would not give them the benefit of the doubt. I don't think you can blame a group of people for something that happened 200-400 years ago. Also, black people were not only slaves in America, why are their statistics only outlandish in that region?

You're all sorts of fucked up on this issue. 200-400 years ago? Are you daft? There's a big difference between "Slavery" and "Civil Rights", which is exactly what you don't seem to be able to distinguish. The "actions" of a "few people 200-400 years ago" isn't the issue. The fact that blacks usually have to work twice as hard to get half as far is. And it's the same for many races and countries. Yeah, there were black slaves in other countries, but that's not the issue here, is it?

You tell me, Tesla, why IS IT that blacks are so rambunctious in America?

If you ask me... the ramifications of slavery are in effect to this day. It doesn't justify or mitigate the actions of people who break the fucking law, but that wasn't the point of why I brought it up. You're being an ass. The only person who is on a blame line of thinking is you. Look at your self, look at your very first post on this tangent. Your whole intention is to pass blame and for all the wrong reasons.

Society is fucked up, but if you want to play "let's take it a step further" with blacks and music, then why can't I take it a step further and look at history, society, and mankind as a whole?

Could it be that I can't do that if it doesn't fit your modus operandi? Your sense of logic? Questions, good sir. Questions.

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Also, if you want to take the whole, "We should feel sorry for them because of the slavery" route, I would encourage you to think about Native Americans. Their civilization came to an dreadful end, genocide. I don't like the excuse you are giving me, I think it is a cop out. Sure, some of what you are saying is true. I will use the Native Americans as another example. After their lands were conquered, they were placed in reservations with harsh conditions. Many of them resort to thievery and violence. However, in today's society, Native Americans are not really viewed as a problem. On average, they make better grades in school, and lower crime rates than the black population (divided by ratio).

Also, it can be argued that Native Americans live in worse conditions than blacks in today's society. So the whole racism-oppression argument seems invalid to me.

Encourage me? I have Native American blood in me, fuck off. History is History. People die off, Nations, Societies, Cultures... they get swept up in time or struck down. Nothing lasts. Here's something you should think about: "Fucked up is fucked up." The instant you start trying to play comparisons and assign tiers and ratios to things, the more nothing gets solved because you're too busy trying to assign it a number and a priority.

My "people" aren't the issue here, asshole. You brought up blacks, so let's hear it. You've obviously got such knowledge on government, history, politics, and sociology to make a bold statement. What happens when rap music goes away? The "black problem" is solved, right? Wrong.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Tesla

You're statement is entirely flawed. In today's American society, it is theoretically easier for blacks to get by. Despite racism, which really isn't a huge issue anymore, blacks are offered so many special programs to help them succeed. I don't really see anything that is preventing them from succeeding. Programs which are only offered to blacks. Ever heard of Affirmative Action? If anything, there is too much compensation.

You and every other "Theory Fighter" out there who think shit works in reality like it works out on paper are pretty damned sad. Stigma comes with every single one of those programs that supposedly help blacks and other races succeed. Affirmative Action isn't a fix, it doesn't solve the apprehensions various people have because of race and it doesn't help anyone, specifically blacks, overcome the problems of being "that guy." You're invalidated because you were "given" a position when your peers, people such as yourself specifically, start talking about how you were just placed there to fill a role.

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Even according to high-profile blacks, such as Bill Cosby. The idiom which you present suggests otherwise.

Your word doesn't mean shit here. First of all, present what he said and then illustrate how it suddenly proves me wrong. Secondly, I'm pretty sure that when you do attempt to do so and fail, I'm going to have to point out how Bill Cosby and other "high profile blacks" aren't in a majority, compared to the majority of blacks who still live in poverty and have to resist the temptations of what's "easy."

But I don't have to prove shit yet, because you fucking fail at discourse and debate.

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My intention is to not pass blame.

Originally Posted by Tesla

Or maybe it's because of gangs and the music they listen to, because it seems many of the actual criminals will take rap music seriously.

DO MY EYES DECEIVE ME.

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My intentions are merely to examine the statistics. Murder rates are high in the US, and who makes up the majority of the percentage? Blacks. It's not very hard to realize that it is an issue. In essence, your goal is to simply push it under the rug. In my mind this isn't a "blame game". It's examining issues that are controversial and addressing them. Who gives a shit if they are controversial? It's obvious that there is a problem here, and why are you being such a pussy that you wont acknowledge it.

It's kind of hard to relate to these statistics and quotes that you aren't posting. The burden of proof being on you, you sure are doing a shitty job of illustrating anything other than the fact you're an idiot.

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Also, learn to organize your thoughts clearly. I had a difficult time analyzing your sentences because your grammar was so poorly organized.

I think it has less to do with my grammar and a bit more to do with how little you understand about what I'm saying.

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I never said civil rights or slavery had nothing to do with it.

Based off what you're talking about, you obviously feel that those two things just don't matter in comparison to a genre of music. You never needed to explicitly state it, cognitive reasoning would state that you would rather address those niggers and their devil music.

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I was comparing blacks to Native Americans to prove a point

You haven't provided a single statistic or established any kind of "point" since you got on about this.

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Did I ever say "your people" are the issue here?

You brought up Native Americans as a straw man. The point here: If they're not an issue then don't bring them up.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Tesla

Affirmative Action hasn't fixed anything?

Right. My point was that because of this fact, it's wrong to invoke it as a supposed "benefit" to blacks or any other culture in society. I think there's still resolution that needs to be made, but that's neither here nor there, so yes, let's drop this. We're sort of in agreement, I can call that progress for now.

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I think this should explain mainly what I am talking about.
CNN.com - The outspoken Bill Cosby - Nov 11, 2004

Look, don't insult my intelligence by pointing me or anyone else to an entire article. Summarize whatever backs up your point or refutes mine, quote it, do something... but don't toss it in my face. Debate doesn't work that way.

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I don't think this should be turned into a "why do blacks live in poverty thread". The point I am making here, is that blacks highly contribute to the high murder rate in America, and statistics prove it. Prove me wrong.

Here's the thing, I don't disagree with you on this. It's your line of reasoning for "why" that I disagree with. Yes, gangs are a problem, blacks are not the only race of people who partake in organized crime. Nor are they the only ones to use a source of media to justify their actions. You can say that about anybody who lives a criminal lifestyle. Hackers use fictional characters like Radical Edward as a mascot. Italian Mafiosos love the Godfather films and Goodfellas. That said, media isn't the problem, the very idea of blaming the media takes the blame, the responsibility off of the shoulders of people who break the law and places it solely on the people who merely tell stories about it.

Which group of people are breaking the law, Tesla? "The Devil made me do it" is not an excuse, so why should "dem rap lyrics made me do it" be different?

Again, my point isn't that "blacks are not the majority right now", I don't care if they are or aren't. Nor is it, "blacks live in poverty, that sucks and you should feel it sucks too." I'm saying your reasoning is flawed. That there's a reason that so many blacks turn to drugs and crime as a way to live.

The "Civil Rights" era ended, I'd say, in the 80s. That isn't 200-400 years ago. Blacks have just begun to see themselves in society as more than just second class citizens. As they assert themselves in these positions, they have to face old prejudices, new prejudices, social stigma... a lot of things that outline the problems that have lingered from years of being poorly educated and held down by American society.

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I don't see the point in anything you have said rather than to discredit my argument. You would rather shove everything under the rug and not address real issues and sympathize with blacks as a whole, rather than admit there is an issue at hand.

No, Tesla. Let me blunt: I think you're a racist in denial. Something in me feels that you either hear that often, or not often enough. I don't even like saying it. I think you have some underlying issues with blacks that have broken the law that puts you in an outrage and prevents you from distinguishing between an individual and the crimes they commit and a group of people who shouldn't all be associated with wrong doing just because "OMG, majority."

I think the instant neus presented his question and you willfully stated you wanted to know the answers, you completely discredited your body of reasoning that I addressed in the first place.

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I believe the music only contributes to the issue. I don't have a problem with people listening to it, but when they take it to heart and allow their culture to revolve around it, that's when it becomes somewhat of an issue.

Already addressed this.

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Obviously you haven't read the whole thread. Do you really need me you point it out to you? Also, it seems the only way you continue to advance your argument is to resort to name-calling, which is a sad and pathetic retort, as always.

No, no, no. Where are the statistics based on rap, the media? Typically, anything that either glorifies or empathizes with a criminal lifestyle has people who look up to something in the media to justify what they do. You haven't presented any statistics regarding blacks and rap and "percentage of people who break the law that listen to rap music." And even if you did, you'll NEVER win a conclusive argument with that approach, because even scholars and psychiatrists aren't entirely sure how much affect the media has on antisocial behavior.

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I used them as a comparison to explain the issue revolving around blacks.

A comparison that had no merit whatsoever and explained nothing.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Tesla

Well I completely missed your point then. As I said before, it's not exactly easy to understand what you are saying as your thoughts are poorly organized.

I don't feel the same way. Though that would have as much merit as dissing your posts and propping my own.

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Why don't you educate yourself and look for the information rather than asking me to throw it at you. It isn't my place to educate you. Quit being stupid.

I'd love to see you in an actual debate. It'd be hilarious to see the following transpire:

"Bill Cosby actually said something that supports my argument and refutes yours."

"What'd he say?"

"You don't even know? You're stupid!"

"..."

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Yes, I agree; however, I think that it is quite evident that there is a crisis among the black community. It is more prevalent than other cultures. Also, I think it's quite ironic how you bash me earlier for making a comparison between ethnic groups, yet you are doing the same thing here. Well done.

You were asking me to look at another group of people and regard their situation as far worse as if it alleviates the issue at hand. It doesn't establish any sort of point at all. What were you trying to say? "The Native Americans are committing mass murder?" If you were, there aren't as many Native Americans as Blacks. No, really, what was your point? My comparison had merit, yours was a straw man.

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Did I say the rap music was the exact cause? No, I only said it contributes to the problem. LEARN TO READ!

I'm saying it doesn't contribute, genius. Specifically because it isn't proven conclusively.

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Of course there is a reason. Tell me how my reasoning is flawed.

I have been.

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I see nothing wrong with my reasoning.

That's not saying a lot.

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You are misinterpreting everything I say, and I suggest you slow down and read.

Refuting. Re-fut-ing.

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I never said rap was the only reason.

Wasn't what I was calling you out on.

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I said it is a possibility that it contributes to the problem, considering that's what gangsta rap music is all about, and it's such an issue in the black community. To blame everything exclusively on rap music would be idiocy. Again, quit putting words in my mouth.

You could do that or... you could not blame it at all? There's an idea.

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And other races don't? That's the point I was trying to make by relating them to Native Americans. By your logic, women should be equally compensated for dealing with the same "old prejudices" which have existed for thousands of years. Quit grasping for straws.

About that whole putting words in someone's mouth. There's plenty of racism for all, but blacks are the issue at hand here. Don't get mad at me for sticking to the issue. "It happens to other races, too!" doesn't work because we're not talking about other races, are we? You want to draw comparisons, but you suck at making any comparison that isn't, at best, a distraction.

Those other races have other cultural and historical differences and have responded differently, they've all faced and adapted to these things at varying degrees. You want to go down that road? Be my guest. The way things are going I'll ignore and/or disagree with you every step of the way.

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Ah, the old bigot retort. If I am a racist, does that make Bill Cosby a racist? You know nothing about me so don't even go there. There is an issue in the black community today, according to the statistics I have presented. You are in denial and do a good job at shunning the truth. I never said murder rates were high only because of blacks. Show me where I said that, you will be unsuccessful. Just because my first few posts on the subject were ill-explained isn't an excuse to tell me that I am a racist. I do not believe blacks are solely to blame for the high murder rates; however, I do believe they are a contributing factor.

It's the perception I have of you based off what you're talking about. And, it looks like I'm right. By the way, Bill Cosby? That's self-hatred or disappointment, not racism. Big difference!

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The statistics cannot be ignored, quit being a coward and admit it.

Ah, those non-existent ones for media influence. Right, sure.

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Which is precisely why I said it may be a contributing factor and it is concerning. I said, "maybe", keyword there. Again, learn to read. As I have said before, I am not the only person who believes this way, and I linked you to an article where Bill Cosby feels the same way.

And when I retorted, you began treating it as if it were a bit more than "maybe." You fucking fail, man.

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Obviously, you just suck at interpreting what I say.

Prove it.

I was speaking idiomatically.