[PS2] Final Fantasy 12 - Unappreciated or underwear

Somewhere in between, in my opinion. I think the one thing that Vagrant Story and Tactics have in advantage to XII is that they have a stronger element of subtlety. The game is more plot than character driven, so I'm not too hot and bothered by the lack of "character development" in this case. Especially considering that what they do go with is standard fare for something along the lines of Tactics Ogre or Final Fantasy Tactics.

I think there are a lot of expectations placed on the game based on how different it is from past Final Fantasy titles, the major conflict stemming from having to please two audiences who expect some very different things.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

A lot of the glaring issues present in the initial release are addressed in the International version of the game. A few for the cause, the damage cap of 9999 is still in place and I still have no freaking idea why this was implemented into XII. Of all the things not to do away with. Most of your debuffing arsenal is near worthless at times, save for a certain piece of equipment that some consider gamebreaking. One of the most powerful weapons in the game is susceptible to some bullshit that the game doesn't tell you about where you can all but prevent yourself from getting it because you opened a few chests in certain areas. The other powerful weapon is only obtainable after you kill the enemies you would want to use it on.

Hunts will keep you engaged and can be quite fun, though this is on the most grind heavy games I've played in a while. Especially if you're aiming at completionism. I really just have to say again that the International version is what the game should have been.

Deni outsponded me with a rather good point. The game makes a lot of the battles that would occur in other games go on "auto pilot", the true crux of the game's battles lies in the major fights. Which require management and precision or something. If you enjoy that sort of thing, it's quite fun... if preparation and constantly killing things over and over is sleep enducing to you, welcome to one of the greatest sleep aids this RPG generation.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Story in games is one gigantic gray area to me, so I really can't dispute that nor can I stand behind it. I was more disappointed by the game at hand, characters taking a second hand to other types of plot is something I've learned to tolerate in certain instances. I was especially fond of FF Tactics, though most traditionalists I knew hammered the point home about how none of the storyline characters mattered after their parts had been played.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I didn't quite run into that crop of Final Fantasy fan, and I don't know if I was clear about it, but I do agree with that point of theirs. Just didn't really deter me from enjoying the game's plot. It just wasn't a character driven story, there are stories like that and I appreciate them.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I'm sure someone out there could summarize the plot and make it sound strikingly good on paper, Deni. Again, I know of people who could play a Final Fantasy game and remove the story from the equation as far as their enjoyment is concerned.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Excellent point there. This kind of trend is present in games like Front Mission, Final Fantasy Tactics, Ogre Battle/Tactics Ogre... all politically themed, with their respective characters sometimes taking a backseat to the events of the world. At another message board I frequent, it was basically put that Vaan isn't the main character of the game. It's Balthier, he states it as such. But I thought it was an interesting way of presenting the story to the player. There are so many things that aren't just spelled out to the player, and I've never been able to say it enough: I appreciate that.

There's nothing wrong with a story that doesn't do this, but I like seeing these large overarching events just transition, smash into each other, or branch off into other things. We get a greater look at certain themes that just aren't possible on a story that is scaled to the perspective of character experiences. It's hard to show how a political plot affects an entire nation when you're only staring at a few of its citizens.

I liked Final Fantasy XII's story, for pretty much similar reasons to Megavolt. They could have done so much worse.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Witty, Torte.

FELIPE NO

Shit does indeed happen. And I can get behind that. Compared to a lot of games I've played for story, it's still comparatively better but I can't argue that it could have been so much more. There are so many things I nitpick XII about as far as story or even just the game is concerned. I'm sure Matsuno lost his mind (I know about his departure from the game) trying to fuse his style of game and story with what we traditionally expect from Final Fantasy.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Monkey King

Does this really have much bearing on anything? As has been established by now, reviewers who don't give good marks to high profile games get fired. The game could be a giant steaming turd and it's still going to get 90%+ because it's a big name Final Fantasy game and nobody dares say anything bad about it because they want to keep their jobs and ad revenue.

Dude, you know that entire Gertsmann incident was hardly a simple case of "guy gives bad review and gets fired." There was a lot more going on than him turning in a bad review, as if he were trying to be subversive or some shit. The dude had shit taste in games and even shittier writing ability, but that brings us here:

Quote:

As I see it, the problem is two-fold. One, it seems to still be a novel idea to hire honest-to-goodness writers to work on these games, so you're not getting what might be considered professional work to begin with.

Just because a person is a shitty writer, doesn't mean they aren't one. You make a living off writing, guess what? You're a writer.

Quote:

Two, Squeenix really doesn't have to put that much effort into the storyline, and they know it. They're not going to waste time and money on developing the plot when they can just pump resources into their CG farms, make it pretty, and get fat off the easily-pleased fans who only care about the visuals... or who will slavishly buy any Final Fantasy title no matter how bad it is, feeling that they're not a "true fan" if they skip any in the series.

This just discredits the production crew. Just because Square doesn't care about the story, doesn't mean their development teams don't care about their own projects. It's obvious this game took a toll on Matsuno, so I'm not quite sure what basis your comment has here at all.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I've seen it said to death, but FFXII isn't a game that spells it all out to you. And it isn't obligated to, it isn't a movie. It isn't a book. It isn't a comic book. It isn't a radio drama. It's a video game. Yes, Role Playing Games of this variety tend to have stories, but a lot of times I feel as if I'm reading comments about games where players have let their love of story cloud the overall fact that sometimes a game is lacking in something. The Lunar or Lufia titles sort of baffle me in this regard, even though I know there are quite a few fans on this board of them... but that's where I'm coming from, anyway.

I saw plenty of subtle reasons to care about the characters. What was Vaan doing traveling with a bunch of people entangled in events that were only related to him because of his citizenship? Would Ashe succumb to making decisions of lesser morales, justifying them as "for the greater good?" Would Basch's loyalty endure? Would it ever be in question? There were a lot of things established, and it just felt like any other unconventional Matsuno work. I wouldn't go around calling it brilliant, but a lot of complaints against it just sound like people saying "Spell it out to me." As already pointed out.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

You didn't like Balthier's mentoring of Vaan? Or Vaan's sort of initial unease around the royalty and Basch? The party was generally together due to actual convenience of common interest, and their relationships generally all stuck that way. Which I found quite refreshing. Again, it's not a contemporary character driven story, though I understand where you're coming from. As do I understand where others are coming from. I wish I didn't feel like some guy defending, oh say, Chrono Cross, in this regard.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I mean the feeling of the argument, I don't like self-affirmation of belief. I enjoy being challenged, it's a good thing. I hate Chrono Cross and this just feels like the shoe being on the other foot as far as discussions go. I see interest has died down, though.

Vaan is a cipher as far as being the "main character", the game slowly begins to constantly throw it in your face that Balthier is the "leading man." See, this obtuse "on-paper" explanation just doesn't really seem to cut it to me, but that's the best I can muster.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

*waves around Final Fantasy I*

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Django!

B> FFI doesn't count because it has a story comparable to Super Mario Bros.

You never specified anything like "good, well-told story" much less any criteria at all. This is all well and good, but so far I know that Deni is the "TOASTY!" guy for FFVI. When it pops up, guess who it is?

My point about Balthier was that if you absolutely needed to point out a main character, he was it. He has the most relevance to being involved in most events, rather than the ciphers that are Vaan and Ashe. Especially given his relationship with Cid in the game.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Denicalis

And VI, sir, has a less single character involved story than XII does. XII is seen from a single person's perspective

If you absolutely had to pick a main character for FFVI, then it would be Terra. As far as I remember, someone care to refresh me on the ending if you don't get her back from Moblitz? If we split the game into acts, it eventually be the Terra and Celes show.

At that, XII is seen from one person's perspective, Deni? That's funny, I could have sworn we saw several scenes from beyond the eye sight of Vaan. Unless Vaan was magically there to see the things, say, Gabranth might have been doing at one point or another. There are plenty of games that have more than just the perspective of one character.

How ya doing, buddy?

Vaan is your player avatar, but you hardly see every cutscene from his vantage point. You're comparing inherent gameplay differences for an argument rooted and originated on story, where Vaan does indeed slip into the background for a minute or two. That's pretty rich.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Where was I in this VI discussion? When did I say I disagree and just what line of thought are you on to go off accusing me of something as ridiculous as arguing "apples and oranges." I've only tried to address things about XII you felt something about and I felt I had knowledge to the contrary, or things you didn't quite understand.

Aaaanyway, you say that FFVI is less driven by one character than XII is and you NEVER stated your criteria. On what level, Deni? Because it certainly isn't a narrative one, and that's where you started as far as I've read up to this very point. That kind of copout isn't exactly fair to anyone invested in this.

Edit: I'm getting the feeling what Deni said wasn't directed at me... please use quotes if this is the case? For us dumb people?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Jesus Christ, I can't tell who you're talking to, man.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Appreciate it. Guess I'll watch you all work this out.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

From where I'm standing, I'm not missing out on much.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?