[General Discussion] Do RPG's Get Better With Age?

When you're jacking off with nihilism and pessimism over today's market, you're more than likely going to continue reaping disappointment. I'm not a tremendous fan of JRPGs, but there were a few decent titles I missed amongst the whole Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts money farming shit. It seems pointless to solely make comparisons and muse over "the old days", because if you want to make that distinction on the varying levels of what can be "good", then you may as well keep your nostalgia. Fuck, build a time machine and live in that era if you have to.

I'd like to see a modern recommendation topic, rather than a topic that just casts aside what actually managed to be a decent game in today's fold.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Qwarky

You need only to re-listen to the likes of Half-Life 2 or Grim Fandango to see how far dubbing still has to go.

Me again.

PC games have always had better voice acting, and with the improvements you cite that have been made other games, it's not the voice acting that has to improve now, after all you concede to the small step it has made forward, it's the taste of players and what they're willing to accept that has to improve. Most voice acting companies are hiring the names that most "fans" recognize and want to hear, and it branches out beyond video games.

You cite Half-Life 2 and Grim Fandango, but how many players these days are going to play an archaic game like Grim Fandango, much less appreciate Half-Life 2 for its voice acting when most people just make a concerted effort to enjoy the game itself over the voice acting? Dubs aren't going to progress because business knows its money gain is going to be assured as well as the fact that they have a consumer respected product on their hands. And the fans dig it.

There's no less culpability on the side of players as there is for video games. We "invited" Final Fantasy VII zeitgeist in, and we took the good and bad that came with it. Companies want to make money and with the larger audience and lack of voice, we see who gets catered to. Sitting in some damp corner of the interwebs really isn't going to change this situation, especially when you can't even amount it to a ripple in the water.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Qwarky

Well now, do people play archaic games like JRPGs for the voice acting? Of course not. But story focused games like RPGs have to put mood and experience over all else or there's no point. Characters, dialogue and audio are therefore a big part. Whether a number of fans accept what they're given (I've yet to hear anyone outside GFF talk about their favorite dub actors, besides Cam Clarke and David Hayter) or not, it doesn't diminish the importance. Much like a large amount of people don't know the names of the actors or directors in movies they've seen, I suspect even less actually notice which ones do the dubbing in their RPGs.

I find the prospect of telling you to "get out more" as we talk on the internet to be laughable, much less using it as a basis for what everyone in an interest knows. Big world out there, Q. I have read and heard people talk about their favorite voice actors. Some people feel Yuri Lowenthal wasn't exactly the best choice to be Alucard in Symphony of the Night on PSP, but feel his performance is respectable as their main issue is more with the new translation rather than his actual performance.

And put mood and experience over the features of the RPG itself? I'm gonna have to disagree there, considering that just as many people find issue with a game straying from what they feel it should play like rather than the story. Most people -- ahem, most shooter players with a proper set of knowledge on the basics of what a shooter should have as a game -- contend that R-Type Final demonstrates and touts the series' great underlying story and world... but fails as a shooter. Not everyone enjoys JRPGs, much less associates them as the standard by which all other games should follow. It's why Oblivion is such a booming success and we're here talking about a niche market genre, treating it as a blanket that would cover the genre.

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You say that because people don't play HL2 or Grim Fandango exclusively for the voice acting that they shouldn't bother with quality in the first place.

No, I'm saying they aren't going to bother with quality in the first place. Specifically, your definition of it. You want to essentially argue about taste? Expect high fives from everyone who will agree with you and the ignorant masses to scratch their heads or feel insulted.

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I don't need you to tell me WHY things are the way they are, practically everyone can deduce the situation.

There's that internet again.

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The recent generation of consoles have proven the resurgence of graphics over content improvement argument. Bang for buck is fine, but RPGs could and should be in the more refined category of games.

And why is that? Again, what do you want from RPGs that should be recognized and catered to over Average Joe? Be they from Japan or wherever else RPGs are being made. Yes, people will share your sentiment, but you should be so lucky that the developers at large would start using it as a basis for every title to come out.

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It's true, a large amount of HL2 players won't appreciate the care and talent that's actually went to designing it, the setting, the style, the score, the writing and audio achievement. In a way that'll only strenghten its worth as a pioneer, to show what the genre can and should do. Much like a very large amount of RPG fans will never "get" FFXII and just how much it does right and amazingly well. Does this somehow diminish its value?

Believe it or not, depending on who sees it... yes. Money, the potential for profit, is the voice of games. Always has been. This isn't about verifying your beliefs, true or not, it's about accepting what it is you aren't willing to see. Do you know how much FFXII does amazingly poor on the level of the features it touts in game? Because when you strip away all that art design and voice acting, you have a game that has a Japanese release with huge changes and additions that many players would have liked to see.

A game has, objectively to be blunt, what it does well and no one can take that away. They can just be ignorant of it. I'm saying that we seem to have a hard time seeing things beyond seeing those great things.

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I bring the subject up because the topic asks do these games improve with age, and I've found these are the aspects that I notice more often than I would have years back. Hell, I adore Grandia 1, but I doubt I could play it nowadays if it was the first time through.

Retroactively applying what has transpired now to what was done back then doesn't seem the least bit pretentious or silly to you? Hindsight is 20/20, Q. Yes you see things differently now, but it's what people are saying that I take issue with. Specifically the fact that we don't quite recognize that games as books don't make as much money now as games as movies. I wonder if it's the "Why" that some people can't grasp, because we seem to take issue with the games rather than the cause itself.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Qwarky

Yeah, I can see they aren't going to bother when Valve, Bungie, Lucasarts (at least used to), Bioware, Production Studio 4 and ilk are already bothering. I don't quite understand where you get off touting this "hey, it's cool, I understand the market" attitude of yours, as if knowing games are a big business somehow makes it better for us to recieve sloppier work.

If it was only for money talks and "we must make more of what we know will sell", we wouldn't have gotten R-Type Final, Vagrant Story, Rez or the like in the first place. Many studios still take pride in their craftmanship, and it's somehow wrong to hope more will follow?

It's silly to attack the rest of today's RPG market for shit it isn't trying to do. Specifically, RPGs. Those companies have a privilege to do whatever it is they want to do, and it's WHY they're respected. The question wasn't whether or not the things they do are great, I said that already. It's everyone else and why they should have to take a risk that may more than likely turn them into another Looking Glass Studios, Ion Storm, or Black Isle, Interplay. You got names, Q? So do I. I speak of the market and business because I fucking can. Every time we speak you seem to have this issue with my credibility and how it is I hold myself.

Now who's off topic?

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Are you seriously pointing fingers and soapboxing about how people shouldn't hope for care and love in the games they buy? Why would you try to act out this kind of role here?

I'm NOT saying that, Q. First of all, I'm asking them to evaluate why anyone should care, perhaps it'd help them come to a greater understanding about games. Business is a huge part of it, "gameplay" takes a hit because of what will or will not be financed. Since we cite R-Type Final, it wasn't such a triumph considering that most fans don't actually care for the game, and we now have a strategy game in place of what a lot of people would like to be another 2D shooter.

Is that a triumph, Q? Is that progression or loss? Who's gonna make that distinction?

I take the counterpoint or difficult stance not in the hope of being wrong but in the possibility that maybe I might not see something in the middle of the discourse. I also enjoy getting to a point, finality. Or are we just going to back and forth pat each other on the back.

YEAH! MODERN RPGS SUCK, GO BOOKS AND VAGRANT STORY! IMMA PLAY IT AGAIN RIGHT NOW!

Sorry. Okay, here's how I see it. Games aren't movies. Games aren't books. Games are games. You see voice acting and art direction, I see game variety and balancing and... fuck, tournament playability. Do I put any less value on voice acting and art direction and scripting? Not unless it starts causing me to lose sight of things like "Why would business not cater to a genre or a feature about a game I like, but somehow I see Kingdom Hearts FLYING FROM THE ASSHOLE."

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And how is it pretentious to notice years later something you thought awesome isn't quite that awesome anymore?

Because circumstances and capabilities are different now than they were back then? Because somehow something isn't so great back then because "Oh, I have changed and it can't change now but that's okay because I don't like it anymore anyway." I can apply that in reverse and we see how we fault games that have to cater to a growing and changing market.

You're asking so many questions because I get the feeling your disposition toward me isn't exactly ever going to be pleasant. Four letter word back at you too, subtle man.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?