The annual Seal Hunt

The Canadian seal cull is barbaric. I'm sorry but nothing you can say will convince me otherwise. I did a presentation last summer on Canadian laws (lack thereof more appropriatly) and animal rights. I did my research. I showed recent video footage of seals being clubbed, inlcuding the white coated seals, then left to die on the ice. It's digusting. My presentation also inlcuding the trapping of animals, animals used in bloodsports, animals raised for consumption, animals used in laboratory testing and animals (cats & dogs) raised to be sold - can't seem to remember the term this is given. There's no such thing as any Canadian law to protect these animals from this obvious torture. And the clubbing of white coated seals is only a regulation not a law. I don't recall anyone facing sanctions for killing baby seals. And lets cut the bullshit. Baby seals are killed in the cull...

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Linking to a Canadian government website for the facts on seal culling is like telling me to read the Bush administration's official report on Sept 11. I think I prefer to get my information from a more trust worthy source.

But just to go along with the Myths/Facts game.
http://www.thenausea.com/elements/sp...s%20facts.html

Like I said though you cannot change my mind. The seal cull whether done using clubs, picks, rifles, grenades, or appache gunships strickly to fuel the fur trading industry is cruel and unnecessary.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

There are two things that make humans unique. We possess rationality and the ability to feel pleasure and pain. Animals while not rational can also experience pleasure and pain. A single cell organism possess neither. Drawing the line is easy. although bacteria are a living organism they are not included.

As humans our rights do and should supercede those of other animals but I also feel that slaughtering 1 million seals is cleary over stepping our boundaries. It's time Canadian law recognises this and introduce laws to protect wildlife from cruelty and torture.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Lord Styphon

You said there were two things that make humans unique. You've named one: rationality. You bundled it with the ability to feel pleasure and pain, but then said that animals can also feel pleasure and pain.

So what's the second thing?

Sorry should have been clearer those were the two things. Rationality being the first, our ability to feel pleasure and pain being the second.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Lord Styphon

Which then contradicts your earlier statement that animals can feel pleasure and pain, as well as humans.

Humans and animals can both feel pleasure and pain but animals are not rational agents. An animal can't stop and think about the cosmos and nature in the way you can. This ability to think is what makes humans superior to other animals. But the fact is animals can feel pleasure and pain which means they do have a certain amount of cognitive capacity more so than an amoeba does. Because a seal can feel pleasure and pain I would conclude by saying that smashing it in the face with a club is a rather unethical practice.

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Oh I see where this is going now. It's just a polemic spin on my sentencing. I assumed that any possible ambiguity would have been resolved by the thoughts proceeding "humans are unique..."

To make a quick edit on my earlier argument here to keep everyone happy I'll change it to:

Humans are unique to other animals because we are rational agents whereas animals do not possess rationality although both humans and animals are capable of feeling pleasure and pain.


Watts, the Canadian Criminal Code first introduce animal cruelty in 1892 which has barely been revised since then. Although there might be an extreme case where an individual may be held criminally responsible for animal cruelty for the most part there simply aren't any laws that protect animals from cruelty and torture. Under Canadian law, animals are still treated merely as property and not as an individual. Many people, including myself think it's time for this to change.

And PLUG, I haven't said Canada lives in a state of nature or a lawless society. What I would say is that Canada needs to update its law concerning the ethical treatment of animals to help keep consistent with the view that Canada is -mostly and supposedly- a peace loving nation.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Lord Styphon

Legally speaking, "an individual" is usually taken to mean a person. Are you suggesting that animals should be treated as people?

Secondly, the Canadian Criminal Code aren't the only laws in Canada. What does provincial law say on the matter?

For your first question, I'll try to give the best answer I can that won't lead this to the ridiculous. Animals should be treated as people in same way as people are treated with dignity. The point is to remove the idea that animals are seen legally as property to be used and exploited by any means for human gain. Laws should protect wildlife from this. Also laws should be in place which can hold people criminally responsible for animal cruelty.

To answer your second question, from what I understand Provincial legislation would have nothing to say on the matter as animal cruelty falls under Federal legislation.

http://www.cfhs.ca/news/canadian_law/
This is a fairly extensive collection of news articles regarding Canada's recent history on the issue of animal cruelty put forth in Parliament. It looks as though not much progress has been made since I did my presentation on animals rights/cruelty.

It's interesting and no surprise that certain groups of people want to be exempt from any animal cruelty laws that may eventually get passed.

http://www.stopthesealhunt.ca/site/p...PFIqE&b=437937
Here's several recent short films shot by IFAW which document the seal hunt during 2004 and 2005. Footage from this year I think it says will be added soon. It's impossible for me to understand how anyone can support seal culling.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Amanda

Dear Lord. Crap like this is exactly why I have no respect for groups like PETA and the IFAW. Sappy music? Check. Making sealers out to be monsters? Check. Shots of frolicking whitecoats? Check. Little argument presented beyond "SEALS ARE CUTE SO HAY DON'T KILL THEM!!!1"? Check. Incidentally, it kills me that one of the video diaries has the protesters freaking out because sealers are "attacking" them. (Guys? You're wandering around in a dangerous environment doing everything you can to get in the way, harrass the sealers, and make the look like monsters. What do you expect, a fucking welcome wagon?)

Amanda, to be fair to these organizations, the people who support animal rights and those opposed to seal culling their claim is pretty simple. Slaughtering 1 million seals is unethical and cruel. It's a form of genocide in my opinion. Images of cute baby seals are used because they are powerful and persuasive. Plus it just makes sense. You don't run a campaign for seals and then show images of giraffes.

You show people a picture of a cute baby seal "frolicking" and the next slide shows carcasses and blood smeared across the ice you tend to get more of a response. The reaction from most people is going to be something like, how can they (Canada) allow this? This important question is what get people talking and ultimately what starts these huge ethical debates. Without these debates society would never change and laws would never be revised. Hopefully everyone can at least agree that this would be a bad thing.

Originally Posted by Amanda

So there's video footage. So what? Give me time and I can probably track down some footage of what goes on inside a slaughterhouse or fur farm. Yet somehow, animals spending their entire lives in a giant factory-farm assembly line to be caged, mutilated, fed grotesque amounts of growth hormones, and killed en masse behind closed doors... That gets played up as less horrific than wild animals killed in the open where some sanctimonious animal rights group or another can film it and single it out for shame among their target audience. Which seems to consist mainly of people who will scream about all the animal cruelty that us evil bloodthirsty Canadians are apparently perpetrating without thinking twice about where their hamburger comes from, let alone bothering to look at any other part of the sealing issue beyond "seals = cute". Blood on the ice once a year sells a cause better than blood on a slaughterhouse floor 24/7, I guess.

I assure you I have very strong opinions and views in regards to the unethical treatment of animals raised for consumption. I think it's hideous that cattle farmers are allowed under Federal regulations to keep a cow shackled in cage and fed bio-engineered food up to the day of slaughter. It's also disgusting how Australia's poultry industry can house like 400,000 chickens inside a single shed under nightmarish conditions. The puppy mills in Quebec, across the country -trappers, fur farms, animal testing- all of it is highly unethical and all perfectly legal under Canadian law. Canada and Canadians need to wake up from their slumber. This cruel treatment and torture of animals needs to stop and people need to be held accountable for it.

The problem with the approach you're using is that it's unfair to undermine the argument against seal hunting by introducing a separate issue you deem more important. I am fully aware of the kangaroo cull your friend mentioned. 1 million seals killed over 3 years seems pretty small compared to the 7 million kangaroos killed each year in Australia. This however does not make seal culling suddenly acceptable. The "it-can-be-worse-program" has no place in ethical debates. Plus it's non-sensical to talk about the treatment of cows when we're arguing against the treatment of seals. You cannot assume these activist are ignoring such issues while only raising stink about the seals. Even so, there are plenty of other people who do campaign against the treatment of cattle raised for consumption. And you as a consumer can voice yourself by purchasing meat with that free range stamp.

Also people stop being so damn passive in your use of argumentation.

Quote:

false facts where put together by a group of activists that cannot see the truth

This is not an argument or a claim. This is rhetoric. It's empty. There's nothing for me to respond to. Using this kind of speech in attempt to weaken my position is completely unproductive. If you think I am wrong saying Canada needs to implement laws to protect animals from cruelty then at least make a claim I'm able to respond to.

The only decent arguments I have seen so far in support of seal culling is over population and that it happens to provide an income in a part of Canada where the opportunity of education is low and unemployment is high.

These arguments however are not are not compelling justifications. If the culling of a large populated species of animals becomes an acceptable maxim then this suggests humans should also be included because 6 million seals is incomparable to the 6 billion humans that occupy the globe. You provided information that suggests fish stocks have not been able to recover over some 15 years and that seals are seen as the culprit. I would argue that human interference such as pollution and over fishing has taken its toll on fish stocks. Perhaps Canadian waters are no longer providing a suitable environment for fish to reproduce. There are likely several factors to explain low fish stocks (seals may be one of those factors) but I think it's wrong to target seals because that happens to be the easiest, cheapest and conveniently most profitable short term solution.

The second argument basically comes down to whether or not it's right to exploit animals for human gain and profit. In my opinion it's not. It's the case that the people of NF need money to survive but at the cost of 1 million seals? It's wrong. Disney has exploited children all over the world to help it become such a huge successful business. It's wrong.

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