[General Discussion] Games you consider "Perfect"?

Dragon Quest III. Regardless of which version of the game you played, you were in for the time and the challenge of your life. You could ride solo, you could duo, trio, or go for a full party. You could choose so many distinct classes, then hit up the Shrine of Dharma and create hybrid upon hybrid of each and every class to have ultimate customized classes. This was only the NES version too.

Once SNES and GBC versions came along, they took perfection to a whole new level. To this very day, Dragon Quest III GBC is without a doubt the single best portable cartridge you can own hands down. A real pity the DS didn't support those in the end though. ;_;

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Borg1982

I don't "perfect" this game because it doesn't have a masterful & cinematic story with tons of characterization, but its the best DW there is.

So because Dragon Quest III, a game which started out on the Famicom/NES, does not have a "masterful & cinematic story" you simply cannot find it perfect. Since when do games require having cinematics of ANY type to be perfect? I realize that might be your personal preference, but come on. You lost a ton of respect with me with that statement right there, and that's sad.

The only thing I think games should be "required" to have in order to be perfect to any particular person is entertainment value. How it is achieved, either by "masterful & cinematic story" sequences or kickass gameplay, is entirely at the discretion of each respective game. It is the sole reason there is such diversity in what people find perfect, from Katamari to Tetris to Mario to Metroid to Final Fantasy.

I'm quite surprised you choose to dote on Dragon Quest so much, then say that. I guess your views have changed over the years.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Borg1982

DW3 has perfect gameplay.
FF4 is a perfect RPG (story + gameplay), thus a perfect game.

So in essence, a game that allows you complete customization of your party and allows you to go through the story with any character combination you like compares to a game where you are given no character customization at all and up to the release of FFIV Advance, absolutely no choice in who you could have in your party at ALL.

I'm not ragging on FFIV at all here as it is an excellent game in it's own right, but you have to be sorely mistaken if you think FFIV's gameplay hangs with Dragon Quest III. Dragon Quest is BUILT on gameplay, that's why it has the following it does. FFIV is superior in story and characterization, DQIII is superior in gameplay and customization. Since gameplay has a higher value than story and characterization well, you get the idea. Don't say it doesn't either, because nobody will play a game they hate to play because the story is badass, whereas anyone will play a fun game with little story.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I think opinion has little to do with the idea that you claim both games have the same level of gameplay value. Which you do of course, because you raise FFIV over DQIII because FFIV has both and DQIII only has one. That is false, regardless of who you are or how you look at it.

I don't want you to admit anything, but I will call you on the fallacy of FFIV being "perfect" because you think it has equal gameplay value to Dragon Quest III. I never said anything about the story value in any DQ game, but I did state that FFIV has superior story value. It simply negates your qualifications of FFIV being "perfect" when it simply does not have the gameplay aspect, much like Dragon Quest does not have the story/cinematic aspect.

Even so, I continue to believe Dragon Quest III is perfect, and you continue to believe that Final Fantasy IV is. We agree to disagree, and are essentially both hypocrites when applied to your standard. Oh well.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Like I said, what I've brought up concerning FFIV is not opinion. It is established fact.

1. Equalization leads to zero customization.
2. This is false. I've gotten up to the point where when you regain a certain character in the Underworld, she already had the use of Meteo. Like in all games, you can powerlevel to that point. So this point is invalidated.
3. Opinionated, many said elements also exist in Dragon Quest III. Additionally, I could say that Dragon Quest III's Metabble/Metal Babble is consequently the same as FFIV's Pink Puff.
4. Opinionated, many said situations also occur in Dragon Quest III.
5. Opinionated, Bahamut's Megaflare is no better than Explodet in terms of effect, they only differ in graphical structure. Both achieve the same result. The others also have similar spell structure and graphics. This is NES versus SNES, so I'm allowing a discrepancy between the graphical capabilities. This is fair enough.
6. Opinionated, as one might find surviving a long dungeon trek to get them from various points (Rubiss' Tower/Charlock Castle) a task as difficult as winning a few key battles.
7. Opinionated, ATB wasn't exactly groundbreaking at the time. FFIV only drew what value it had into the light, as only a FF could.

This is all fine and good, but don't dredge Dragon Quest III into the ground and say Final Fantasy IV has greater gameplay potential. I will agree with you that it has the superior story and characterization, and a lot of depth over Dragon Quest III. Everything else may be your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but as I already said under your standards of perfection Final Fantasy IV falls short of perfect.

You may amend those standards, if you like.

EDIT: I apologize for the slight thread derailment here, this should be over shortly.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Then simply say that Dragon Quest III does not suit what you want, rather than say that because it lacks something it has no business being called a perfect game. There's no reason to continually reiterate that Dragon Quest III is your 5th favorite game either, we get that already.

Easy enough, eh?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Vampiro

Are people actually arguing something based on pure opinion? lewl

You do realize that you can't argue fact, right? All discussion/arguments are based on "pure opinion" as you can't really argue discrepancy in fact. This is a discussion forum after all, better to have a discussion over something than countless list after list, of course.

o lawl u

Also we are not arguing the definition of perfect, because that definition is quite subjective. Rather, we are arguing over what his standards are for perfection, because he seems to claim that both games have an equal level of gameplay value as fact, which is not so.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Elixir

Everyone's definition of a "perfect" game heavily relates back to their favorite games, or what they just like, and is their own definition. He likes these games. I don't see the problem with liking 2 games equally.

There's nothing wrong with it all of course, he's entitled to such. I'm simply pressing as to why he somehow believes that a franchise built on gameplay has equal level gameplay than a franchise build on story and cinematics. He is entitled 100% to his opinion, but as I recall he used to be a rather huge Dragon Quest fan. So for him to say such things has me curious, that's all.

Originally Posted by Borg1982

...as opinion.
But back to the "perfection" thing...
It only matters what we perceieve or want as perfect.

So, can you tell me exactly what you would want?
Or is the answer always going to be as simple as: "The highest entertainment value that I can get" (which i still think is vague, because my highest entertainment value is all of those things i listed before, so what are yours)?

There is no right answer to the question, other than that gameplay is always going to have a higher value than all other elements. Therefore, it has to be highly entertaining as a game before all else. As that holds the most weight in Dragon Quest titles as they are built on gameplay, so comes my reasoning to hold over it Final Fantasy IV. Your perception of "gameplay" is of course influenced by nostalgia, which is fine really.

No need to continue, I was simply looking to see why such a hardcore Dragon Quest fan suddenly lost faith in his series by reducing it to 5th on his list.

How ya doing, buddy?

Nobody was arguing about who's definition of perfect was the most valid, lol. He raised his own standards up and I argued against his own standard, not my own against his. I wonder how many people will read and respond the same way, heh.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Vampiro

So you're essentially trying to discredit his opinion using his own logic? Brilliant!

lol arguments about arguments about perfection are neato

About as brilliant as attempting to throw sarcasm around blindly, really.

Originally Posted by Borg1982

I think the last part of this sentance is wrong. Just because it seems like the FF series is built heavily upon story & cinematics does not mean that they are not trying with regards to gameplay or that the gameplay of a series such as that is going to suck. (Actually, my opinion of it is that, on average, FF gameplay is worse than DW, but I like two of the FF games equally with regards to gameplay as DW games -- FF1 and 4). Also, on the reverse side, a series heavily built on gameplay doesn't automatically mean bad stories. Look at DQ8!

Did I have a list that showed DW3 higher than 5?? I was wondering what you meant by this.

In the past, FF began to lean on story and presentation versus tradition while DQ stuck to it's guns with gameplay. Dragon Quest VIII was also heavily changed between Japan and the US to be more cinematic and presentable. So naturally, there will be bias.

I'm quite surprised if you never had a Dragon Quest in at least first to third spot on your list with as much as you enjoyed discussing and talking about the series. This was partially why I started this argument, to see why you suddenly put other series above it. Suffice to say, I've never quite seen any lists of yours lol.

There's nowhere I can't reach.