Theological Discussion

I think Christianity is right, but that's not to say that every other religion is 100% wrong. It's just that .0000001% that matters that seems to elude people. Nevertheless, I told you about accountability. If a Muslim doesn't really understand the Gospel and never gets around to rejecting it, I don't seriously know if he's any different from a baby in God's eyes. What I do know is that it's up to God. I don't know who goes to hell and who doesn't. I do know that if you want to be separate from God, he gives you what he wants, but people who just don't get it? I dunno. It's not my place to say. I make it a point never to answer the "where am I going when I die?" question. I usually tell people to ask God themselves.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

What are you talking about Lehah? I just said that I don't know what God is thinking...

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Actually, Jesus is in the Koran. Muslims feel the same way about Jesus that the Jews do. Most of the people in the Koran are in the Bible. I can't help but think that Mohammad ripped the Koran off of the Bible, frankly.

How ya doing, buddy?

I'm saying I don't know, but I believe God will accomodate anyone who wants to be with Him. Far from telling you what the "way of things" is.

I was speaking idiomatically.

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Well, if you believe that you MUST accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior to get into Heaven (which is a requirement to be considered officially Christian), then yes, all other religions are 100% wrong, because they don't accept this.

No, they're only wrong in that one respect, necessarily. Unfortunately, that's the most important part. It's definitely not 100%, though.

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Well, how can you say you don't know "the way of things" - but you can tell me God is accomodating anyone?

That's the kind of guy God seems to be, from what I understand and believe, based on my research and personal experience.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Uh, actually yeah I have read some of it and I own a copy. Haven't read it all, no. Have you?

FELIPE NO

I think the fact that other religions have some things right just shows that God reveals things to everyone. He's trying to connect with everyone. I see Christianity as God's last effort to help people connect with him.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

All Christians basically believe in the rapture, but I don't see why that belief would make anyone particularly zealous.

The thing about Africans who can't read and babies I've address earlier in the thread. There is a concept of accountability in both Christianity and Judaism. Basically you have to hear and understand the Gospel in order to be accountable.

So what happens to the people who don't? That's largely up to God. I've heard some weird stories from people who had never heard of Christianity and were mysteriously lead to it (I've actually met these people). I believe God gives you everything you need to make the decision. He is fair and just. If you want to be with Him, He'll give you every chance to make that choice. If not, He gives you what you want (or, at least, what you think you want).

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Not everyone has to be a Christian. I'm gonna get in trouble for saying that, but I really believe that that is the correct theology. The Bible says that basically the universe itself proclaims his existence. But as far as people who God has seen fit to put in a position where you are basically forced to make a decision about the Gospel, you're expected to accept it. God basically just wants people who are genuinely interested in him. In order for that to be possible, He had to give you the ability to say no to Him, otherwise you'd be a robot and for some reason that's just not good enough for him. Of course, we all understand that having robots would be unfulfilling, and we know this because we can relate to God in some ways. That is what's meant by "we were created in His image." He doesn't have a physical image. It just means we are wired to understand God in certain ways.

How ya doing, buddy?

Was something I said not clear, SMX? Something outside of our collective experience can only be described in metaphors because we have never felt with any of our senses what it is really like. It's just the nature of supernature.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Some of it, yeah. Jesus used parables all the time.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Well, was he right? What are we fighting about right now?

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

I am asking you to explain what you feel (The Church) Jesus meant by that lovely, LOVELY phrase.

Basically, just what I said. What he is talking about is the consequence of following Him. The "sword" is exactly what it implies - opposition. Somtimes violent opposition. He is warning us that we'll have to deal with it.

If you read the passage in context, He talks about "turning a man against his father, a daughter against mother" etc.. This is pretty much what happens. When someone chooses to follow Him and that person's family doesn't, that causes conflict. Surely not peace.

Actually, He is not saying anything new. He is merely reiterating the phrophecy from Micah 7:6.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

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And Minion, it seems more to me that he is pretty much encouraging war-mongering in the name of faith. Maybe its just my interpretation, being an idiot and all. =/

I didn't call you an idiot, but I think you're wrong. I also think that what he meant by that was pretty obvious from the context. Just read the whole chapter and I think you'll get it.

The problem with the Luke passage is two-fold: there is a translation difficulty and a figurative concept that you haven't picked up on.

Firstly, there is apparently no way to express moderate feelings for love/hatred in Hebrew. Take Luke 16:13 for example:

"No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other."

Now, does a servant HAVE to hate one of the masters? Hate is such a strong word. Could he maybe just not like him as much? Seems a little extreme, but in the proper cultural context, people would know what you were talking about. It's a relational thing. Which takes me to my next point.

What Jesus is saying is that compared to how your're supposed to love Him, your feelings that you describe as love toward you family and friends are like hatred. It is simple hyperbole - a concept that is used extensively in Hebrew, in the Bible and by Jesus himself (ie, forgive your enemies 77 times 7 times, etc.).

FELIPE NO

It's not a demand. He's saying that if you don't love Him that much, then you don't "get it". It's more of a litmus test for how close you are to God than anything like a demand.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

So Minion. Prove to me how close you are as my friend to me. I want you to prove your friendship to me by simply drawing a pint of your own blood in my name.

You'll surely say no to this, right?

I don't see what that has to do with anything. God is not asking for my blood. He's not even asking me to prove anything. Why would He if He's omniscient?

And Sass, we've addressed the old testament a billion times. Do we really have to keep going over what all that shit in Leviticus and Deuteronomy is about?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I really just don't know what you're talking about. When does He ask for my blood? Maybe you're talking about Jesus? I dunno...

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I think we have an innate understanding of what is good according to God due to our being created in His image. Now, how badly that understanding gets corrupted by society is another story.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

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If we've all got this understanding, then why are there such huge divides between what one person thinks is 'right', and what another thinks is 'right'? And how does it make sense that a society made entirely out of those that know a thing, would just somehow change and against that thing? Why would a room full of like-minded people just all of a sudden change their mind?

Well, that's the thing - we weren't all sitting in a room together. We all live our own separate lives and are confronted with different difficulties. For example, if you're an attractive person, you will have a greater burden of temptation when it comes to adultery than an ugly person. That doesn't mean that you don't know as well as I do that it's wrong, but you may end up justifying it for your own pleasure. And maybe you're a charismatic guy. You start leading people and forming your own community.

It's really not hard to imagine how people who start out the same way can end up split. Think about the people you hung out with in high school. How much different are they now than they were when you knew them?

About the "how do we know" questions. On my side of the debate, I take the Bible as a given and go about trying to show how it's plausible. So, I take "we were made in God image" as a given and I try to make sense of what it means first and then show how it is true. Every debate has to work this way. You can't prove anything without accepting something to be axiomatic first. It's not really circular reasoning; it's just faith.

The whole topic of God's image is one that I find really interesting, myself. I've given it, particularly, a lot of thought over the years.

How ya doing, buddy?

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Nature essentially sets forth a code which we are bound to as creatures. There is one thing on this planet we can never lasso - nature.)

Sounds like religion to me. Are you asserting religion as fact?

I was speaking idiomatically.

Nature is not, but perhaps your beliefs about nature are.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Oh... because religion didn't exist before books. Whoops!

FELIPE NO

What do you really know about my beliefs? It's not quite as close to common knowledge as you might think. A book does not make a religion. What about Animists and Shamen?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?