Male Reproductive Rights

Originally Posted by Devo

But that's not why I'm pro-choice. I'm pro-choice because a lot of you pro-lifers like to assume that people are educated about sex and morals. You're living in this ideal world where everyone has an informative and loving upbringing and should know right from wrong, know when to be responsible. I live in a reality where not everybody has my upbringing, knowledge or willingness to acquire knowledge.

Actually, I find that everyone does know about sex and the consequences; they simply choose to ignore them for the pleasure of the moment. I myself do not agree with the "easy switch" from life's problems. Certainly, there are exceptions (rape victims, etc.), but for the majority, if you get pregnant, then you should carry it to term.

Nowadays society is all about the easy way out, shirking responisbilities, and shifting blame. Maybe people should actually take responsibilities for their choices for a change, and it might make this society better. Maybe the woman/man shouldn't have had sex to begin with, and with the easy way out of abortion, there's no consequences for having screwed up. People learn from experience.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Okay, maybe everyone that I know knows the consequences. I took classes in school when I was 12-13 called Sexual Awareness. It teaches you all about that sort of thing, how the body changes through puberty, what sex is, how to protect yourself, etc. Now if kids would actually listen instead of ignoring facts that are blatently given to them...

If she got pregnant because she is stupid enough to have sex when she's 15, then I would say "tough luck, time to grow up and act like an adult, since apparently she wants to have sex like one"

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Niekon

How many teenagers actually paid attention in those classes? They spent most of the time giggling and laughing and whatnot...
Ohhh... a vagina... ewww... a penis...

And who's fault is that?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by lordjames

This mode of thinking is outdated and doesn't correspond to the realities of the world today. Therefore, it doesn't hold as a modem for determining the legal validity of a postmodern legal conundrum.

The only problem I have with your statements was this one. Just because it is the reality today, doesn't make it right.

Drugs are everywhere today, simple reality. Should we then have government controlled institutions to allow people to go and get high? Smoke a joint, sniff some coke, etc.? How about underage drinking? Teens do it all the time, should we thus allow teens to do it in regulated environments?

That mode of thinking is not really that outdated. It's simply that people today do not have any sense of responsibility to this world. If something goes wrong, it's someone else's fault, and they look for the easy way out.

The simple fact of the matter is, if you're going to go around fucking like an adult, then should something happen and you become pregnant, then that's too bad. It's time to grow up and act like a fucking adult. Take some responsibility for your own actions for a change.

As I said before, there are always exceptions to the rule, via rape victims, true health risks, etc, but abortion should not become the accepted normality of the situation.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

Invasion of the Canuck Mysogynist.

I love how all the pro-lifers in this thread react to an abortion as if it were like filling out a prescription. Since when does an invasive surgery that could potentially make you a social outcast become the easy way out?

Excuse me? I'm a mysogynist for not agreeing with abortion? I know that it's not as "simple as filling out a prescription", but it is a hell of a lot easier than having to change your lifestyle and raise another human being for the next 18 years of your life. Abortion is clearly "the easy way out".

Originally Posted by a lurker

* Outlawing abortion seems like a very quick and easy solution for those among us who have a child's view of morality. Limiting rights doesn't mean the same as equal rights, you obnoxious dicks.

Really? Would you care to enlighten me as to my "child's view of morality" then? Now don't get me wrong...I'm not saying that men should be able to say "I don't want this kid, go get an abortion". I'm for abolishing abortion as an alternative form of birth control, as to which it is used now.

If you don't want a kid, don't fuck. It's a very simple equation. If you want to fuck, then use proper protection, but realize that if something happens, only yourself is to blame and accept responsibility for the outcome.

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Originally Posted by Bradylama

An alternative form of birth control would imply that one has reasonable options regarding the avoidance of a birth. Paying hundreds of dollars for an invasive surgery is hardly an "alternative." Especially when an abortion becomes the only course of action to avoid birth at the stage of pregnancy. It's not as if we can beam a fetus out of the womb and into an artificial one.

One has many reasonable options to avoid a birth. First, there's abstinence, there's the pills and plastic, as well, there are surgical procedures to tie off tubes, and a little snip and tuck there. Voila, avoiding birth. If you don't want kids, don't tempt fate.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

The idea that an abortion has come to be seen as a method of birth control in society is ludicrous. I don't know what kind of retarded white trash you live around, but society has hardly come to the point where an abortion is considered to be anything but a last resort.

Whereas I don't even think it should be an option, or last resort, as you put it. The facts are thousands of teens use abortion to get rid of unwanted pregnancies, and still go on withtheir lifestyle, namely fucking around, without protection. They always have the choice of abortion if it happens. If they didn't have that choice, maybe they would take more precautions...

Originally Posted by =Bradylama

I was still in the mindset of discussing Male Reproductive Rights.

No harm, no foul.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

How is electing to have an abortion not a responsible decision?

Because the responsible decision is to not have sex if you don't want to deal with the consequences. The responsible decision is to make sure that your life is ready when and if you want to have kids. You make these decisions ahead of time. You prepare yourself for your future, you do not live in the now, and deal with things when they come.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

If you have A. no economic ability to effectively raise a child, B. well aware that in giving up the child for adoption it becomes a burden of the state, which is clearly not in the best interests for the child, and C. that because of these conditions, electing to have this child could result in a much lower standard of living for any of your successive children, then how is electing to have an abortion in order to preserve the status quo not a responsible decision? It would be irresponsible to bring the child into a world where it could not be properly cared for, or shoved around like livestock.

How did our parents do it? And our grandparents? And on and on. During the Depression there was no economic stability anywhere, and yet people still had kids. When they did, they worked harder to make ends meet, and provide for the family.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

Not to mention the concern of health risks, which apparently nobody has picked up on. I provided an example where David's mom had a weak heart, and possibly couldn't survive child birth. However, there is no guarantee that she will die from child birth, it is simply a matter of increased risk. How then, do we determine the acceptable level of risk for an abortion when all women are in danger of losing their life in the process of child birth? It would have to be performed on a case by case basis, and doing so would likely cost the state more money in the process, as well as bring the mother to a term in the pregnancy that is at the current time considered beyond the legal allowance.

I'm at risk of dying every single morning that I wake up. I could slip in the tub. I could get in a car accident. Something could fall on me or blow up while I'm at work. Doesn't stop me from waking up in the morning and continuing on with my life. If there is a health risk to do something, you do something to lessen that risk as much as possible. Get her tubes tied. There, no pregnancy, no risk of death during child birth.

If someone were to have a kid, and there was a clear health risk, then certainly, I would certainly see that having an abortion would be necessary. But as well, tubes would be tied, so that anything in the future like that would be prevented.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

What happens in this situation? Do you terminate a being that by legal account is now considered to be a child, or do you force the mother to risk her life in order to birth the child?

What did we do before abortion?

Originally Posted by Bradylama

Not to mention that this still comes back to your argument of responsibility avoidance, and that by aborting a child that threatens her life, the mother is essentially shirking the responsibilities placed on her by her weak heart. Clearly, by your reasoning, if she didn't want to risk her life she should have never had sex, and that she should suck it up and take it like a woman (or take it out, as the case may be).

If there was no possibility to know about a weak heart in advance, then abortion should be allowed. If, however, she knew she had a weak heart, and did it anyway, without any preventative measures, then suck it up.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

To you, somebody with a "Child's view of morality" this previously black and white view of moral action has become muddied. Perhaps you will figure out a way to rhetoricize your way out of these scenarios, but ultimately, in your view of the world, everybody loses.

Everybody is already losing in "my world". Our society is degrading at an amazing rate, because we live in a generation that wants everything given to them with the minimal amount of work possible. People have no respect for other people, there is no responsibility taken for one's own actions. Because of this, we look to others to provide our easy way outs, so that we can live life in ease.

Life is risk. Without them, it would be dull and boring, and ultimately worthless. But you take those risks and go with them, and see where it leads you. I look at abortion the same as I look at suicide. There is no reason to. Suicide is a cop out, and I have no respect for anyone who would choose it as a viable alternative to living. Abortion is the easy way out for too many people out there, so that they can go ahead and live their life the same way, without repercutions. It's not a "choice" that should be allowed, unless in the most extreme of circumstances.

I was speaking idiomatically.