Firearms

I had to vote "all of the above"...

I own about a dozen firearms, including rifles, shotguns, and handguns, as well as a couple of old black powder muzzle-loaders.

My favorite rifle is the Winchester Model 94. I've got 2, both in .30-30, one was a gift from my grandmother, it stays in my gunsafe most of the time, where it will be, well, safe. The other is a beat up one that was made in the 1970s, it's kinda rusty and the stock is all scratched and dinged. I take this one hunting (that way if i drop it in a creek or something I won't care because it was a crappy gun to begin with). It also sits behind my door, with some 110gr JHP (Jacketed Hollow Point) ammo that I handloaded (yes, I make my own ammo). This is one of 3 guns that I keep loaded in the house...

I also have a CHL (concealed handgun license), and own 2 handguns that I'll carry with me when I leave the house, the only execption being when I'm at school. I really wish it wasn't illegal for a CHL holder to carry in a college...

One of my "carry" pistols is a Makarov, a russian pistol that is very similar to the Walther PPK. Many consider it to be "the AK of handguns". My other pistol is a small Beretta model 950 "Jetfire", in .25ACP. Sure, it's small, but it beats throwing rocks... and it's really easy to conceal. Theres an old saying "a .25 in the hand beats a .45 in the safe"

I feel that guns and the people who own them are very "misunderstood". We aren't rednecks or hicks, just regular people who either have an interest in hunting or self defense (or both). Guns are not for everyone, and I respect that, however I don't think that you should have the right to tell me that I can't have one simply because it makes you "uncomfortable"...

As for when you should shoot someone, that depends on your location. If you're out on the streets, I'd only shoot someone if I had not other choice (like, say, running away). I see it as a last resort.

However, if someone breaks into your house, things change. You don't know why they're there, they might just want your DVD player, or they might be there to kill you and rape your wife/mom/daughter/sister. If someone breaks into my home, I have to assume that they have the worst of intentions, I cannot afford to give them the benifit of the dout. If someone breaks into my house, I will kill them without hesitation. I have 8 rounds loaded in my Makarov pistol at all times... and if I have to shoot someone in my home, the police will find them with 8 bullet holes when they come to pick up the corpse...

I know that might sound kind of crazy to some of you, but you'll understand what I'm talking about if your family is ever in danger. I'm sure Alice knows what I mean. Great story by the way Alice, I wish more moms were that protective of their kids, the world would be a better place... keep up the good work...

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Gumby, I'm an Orygun resident as well... I live in Beaverton...

Illegal wasn't the right way to word it... The problem is that if I get caught with my handgun on college grounds, I get exspelled(spelling?). It's not really a "legal" issue, but an issue with school policy...

Reading this thread is alot of fun, because it's easy to tell who has real world gun experiance, and who learned everything they know from movies and counter-strike...

Also, I forgot to mention what guns I want in my last post... I have a pretty long list:

M1 Carbine in .30 M1 Carbine
TT33 Tokarev in 7.62X25
Colt M1911 in .38 Super
Remington 870 in 12ga
Krag in .30-40 Krag
Ruger M77 in .280 Remington
Another Makarov, I'd convert it to .32 NAA
Another Winchester Model 94, this time in .444 Marlin

There are more, but these are the ones I'm most interested in at the moment...

Edited to add:

Almost forgot the pics! First one is a pic of my 2 carry pistols, Beretta .25 on the left, Makarov 9X18 on right:



Second one is me with my beat-up Winchester, taken durring a hunting trip about 2 years ago:



There's nowhere I can't reach.

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Like I said before, I just don't think they are as necessary as you think.

You're probably right. Most people will never actually NEED a gun. But having one is still a good idea. Why? Take car insuracne for example... you probably won't wreck your car, but you have insurance anyway. You might go your whole life without ever needing a gun or insurance, but that doesn't mean having them is a bad idea... It's about being prepared to deal with a bad situation. It's better to not need it and have it, than to not have it and need it...

Moving on...

.223 Handgun? They exist, but are pretty rare. The .223 is a rifle round after all...

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The diameter of the round isn't all that matters.

True, there are 4 factors the determine how "powerful" a round is:

#1: Velocity
#2: Weight
#3: Diameter
#4: Shape/Design (FMJ vs JHP for example)

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You don't know what you're talking about.

Do you? Have you any real shooting experiance? I thought you were a bow expert, not a gun expert...

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Hell, look at the .357 Magnum. It's "not quite 9mm" but it'll take down a rhino.

I do NOT recomend .357 for Rhino hunting. I wouldn't use a .357 to hunt anything bigger than deer, and even then it's not a great deer round.

Also, .357 is actually a larger diameter than 9mm by 0.002 of an inch (0.357 vs 0.355)

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Little round, big kick.

Ever shoot a .223? They don't kick much. At least I don't think so anyway, recoil is a realative thing. I've shot real kickers like .338 Win Mag, so .223 doesn't seem like much to me...

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Baseball bats are much cheaper and just as intimidating.

You're kidding, right? If I had my choice to fight someone armed with a bat, or someone armed with a gun, I'd fight the guy with the bat. I'm sure you'd rather fight the guy with the bat too...

Lastly, on the Glock vs Beretta issue, I prefer Berettas. But it's really a matter of individual preferance. I don't like "plastic" guns, and even if I did I wouldn't like glocks because they're too "fat". I like single-stack pistols because they're thinner... If I were to get a "plastic" gun, it would probably be a Khar...

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

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What, you think someone's just going to want to shoot you for the fun of it, but give you ample enough warning for you to get your own gun out? Please.

It takes me about 3 seconds to get to a loaded gun, LOL...

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If you cooperate when you're being robbed or whatever, you won't get shot.

NOT TRUE. Often times the criminal will kill you anyway, so as not to leave any witnesses...

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I couldn't resist getting involved in the original discussion with some lamer who thought Glocks are good.

My point is, how do you know that they arn't good if you've never actually tried using one? I don't like Glocks either, but I still think that they are "decent" pistols. And yes, I have actually shot them before...

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Sorry, I meant .357 Magnum.

Thats what I'm talking about... just because a round has the word "Magnum" in it, don't go thinking its super powerful or something. One great example of this is .22 Magnum. Yes, it's a "Magnum", but it's still pretty weak compared to most non-magnum rounds...

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I wouldn't know. I always thought .45=9mm

Nope... 9mm = .355 caliber, and just for comparison, 10mm = .40 caliber

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But I have heard a story from a friend who was in the military and someone in his squad tried out a .223 submachinegun. Like you, she didn't expect much kickback, but her arm actually got windmilled around almost backwards by the kickback, and her squad leader nearly caught a bullet in the head - got a real nice scrape across the side of his helmet. He beat her unconscious and she was RTU'ed that same day.

Full auto is a little different, you get a constant kick on full auto, thats probably what got her... normally .223 has a very mild recoil...

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Yeah, and the bat costs pennies whereas the gun costs $$$ and requires a permit, etc. And when your kids are sleeping in the next room over, believe me the bat is the better option.

One word for you: Shotgun.

Shot pellets (birdshot anyway) is unlikely to go thru walls, therefore it's the ideal gun for home protection. I can't argue your point about the bat being cheaper, but you can find decent guns at prices that won't bankrupt you...

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A gun isn't a viable option in a sane country.

Why not? I think the gun is actually the smarter way to go...

And what about old people for example? A 70 year old isn't going to be able to protect themself with a bat, a gun really is the only option they have. Same goes for people with disabilitys...

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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But that's okay. Your solution to every situation is to carry a gun. You're no psych major.

You don't know me very well, thats all I have to say. Go read my comments in the "martial arts" thread. There's alot more to self-defense than having a gun...

The gun is the way to go in certain situations (like armed robbers breaking into your home), but it's not always the best choice, or the smartest choice...

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A .357 magnum will split a car's engine block. That's what it was conceived for in the first place, actually...

Bullshit.

Also, the .357 was designed as a "hunting" version of the .38 specail

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True. And that's where you get into the realm of "special consideration" and not "hey everybody should own a gun".

I never said "everyone" should have one, LOL. I'm just explaining my own reasons for wanting one. Guns aren't for everyone. However, I do think that most people are smart enough and responsible enough to own a gun...

I was speaking idiomatically.

Harmonica, I think you have the right idea about dogs. They are a good way of scaring off criminals (most people don't want to mess with an animal with pointy teeth). I don't know that I'd trust my dog to be 100% effective against criminals though. He's kind of lazy, he might just decide to sleep instead of trying to scare off any would-be home invaders. So I'll keep my gun as a backup to the dog...

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David4516: Thanks for the rebuttals while I was gone. Seems you have been dead on the money so far. Have you ever heard of Hi-Point firearms? Seems they sell some dirt cheap and reliable pistols and pistol carbines. I've considered buying their .45ACP model. Can't beat the price at 129.99 retail.

I like to think that I know what I'm talking about. I've got almost 20 years of shooting experiance (been shooting since I was a kid), I've also worked at places where it was my job to sell guns. I wouldn't call myself an "expert", but I do consider myself to be pretty knowledgeable.

Not only have I heard of Hi-Point firearms, I've shot them before. To be honest, I wouldn't trust them with my life. They're dirt cheap and fun to shoot, but I don't feel they are as reliable as they should be. On top of that, they're freaking HUGE. It's shaped more like a brick than a handgun. If you're looking for a decent pistol in the $130 price range, I'd recomend the Makarov. I've been very impressed with the one I bought, in fact it is my weapon of choice for concealed carry (I think I mentioned this before).

This next comment is to every one in general: If you're thinking about buying a gun, do not chose one based on caliber. What I mean by this, is don't buy something simply because it's a .45 or a 9mm or whatever. Buy it because it has the features you're looking for, and because it fits well in your hand. Ergonomics (spelling?) can be very important. Caliber isn't nearly as important as most people think. As long as you can hit what you aim at, even a smaller round like .32 ACP can do alot of damage...

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

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Seriously, why are shotguns legal? you really can't hunt with them without maiming the animal to the point of the meat being unusable. All they are is people killers.

Its this kind of ignorance that puts stupid laws into effect.

Can't hunt with a shotgun? You're kidding, right? Shotguns are ideal for many kinds of hunting. Bird hunting for example. If fact it's pretty much impossible to bird hunt with anything other than a shotgun. Also, shotguns are popluar (and in some cases, the only legal firearm) for deer hunting in populated areas, because a shotgun slug won't go as far as a rifle bullet, and is therefore safer.

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After this weekend's massacre up in seattle were an acquaintance of mine was killed by a shotgun.

So, that evil shotgun just decided to murder someone? I don't think so, as others have said, guns don't kill people, people kill people. I'm sorry to hear that your friend died, but he was killed by some crazy bastard, not by a shotgun...

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I do airsoft, does that count?

I don't understand the appeal of airsoft... and I don't think it counts either, LOL...

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I don't like handguns because they can be concealed, and because the vast majority of them are, like Iwata said, "people killers".

I like handguns for the very reason you don't like them: they are portable and concealable. I disagree with the "people killers" part though. Many people use handguns for target shooting and/or hunting. I also carry one when I'm out in the woods because I've had encounters with bear and cougar before. When you're face to face with a 500 pound animal with pointy teeth, you feel alot better knowing that you can shoot it if you have to. There are many reasons why a person might want a pistol, they aren't just "people Killers"...

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The reason I dont like people who own guns is because I dont know, thus dont trust them to be responsible with a firearm like I would be,

I understand you're feelings, but that's just how it is. Look at cars for example, they are far more dangerous than guns, yet you're surrounded by them, and they're being driven by people you don't know, and therefore don't trust...

On a side note, have any of you seen "Thats my Bush"? There was a great episode dealing with these very issues, and the moarl of the story was "You should have the right to bear arms, but not the right to arm bears"...

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Why aren't drugs legal?

I'm going to cover that in the other topic in PP...

Wesker,

What do you think of that Isreali M1 Carbine? I've been considering buying one myself. I have a soft-spot for the little M1, it was the gun that I learned how to shoot with when I was a kid (about 5 years old at the time)...

As for ammo choices, I reload so I make my own. But the actual bullet (not the entire cartridge, I'm talking about the projectile itself) that I use when I make them is the Hornady XTP. I've done some testing with them and they expand very nicely. I have heard good things about the golden sabers though, alot of people I know recomend them, including my Dad (an even bigger gun nut than me). For shotguns I normally go with #4 shot...

My ammo choices change a little when I'm out hiking or camping. I'm more interested in penitration than expansion because it's possible I'll have a run-in with a bear or other large animal. So when I'm in the great outdoors I'll often carry FMJs instead. Also, if I have a shotgun in camp, I'll keep it loaded with #00 Buckshot instead of the smaller #4 shot I normally use...

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Darkk Child,

The acutal bullet diameter for 9X18 Makarov is 0.365

Standard 9mm is 0.355, but a number of different rounds use this diameter bullet, including .380, .357 sig, and .38 Super

Edit:

10mm doesn't kick? You're kidding, right? 10mm is a very beefy round... it's like a souped-up .40 S&W...

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I wouldn't say that I'm "obsessed" with guns, but I am very much interested in them. Thats because shooting and hunting are big hobbies of mine...

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I don't know the exact diameter of the rounds, but I do know that I noticed the .357 sig sauer pro had noticeably better kick than the 9mm that the Navy guys had in the booth next to me.

Correct, the .357 Sig is more "powerful" than a 9mm. The actual bullet itself is the same size and weight, however the .357 Sig has greater velocity. Thats because, if you look at the casing, you'll notice that it's "bottle necked". The .357 Sig is actually a .40 S&W case "necked-down" to hold 9mm bullets. 38 Super is the same idea, but instead of being a short, fat case like the .357 Sig, it's a long skinny case. The standard 9mm case is 19mm long, the .38 Super is 23mm long, so you can cram that much more powder in there. In terms of actual preformance, the .357 Sig and .38 Super are nearly identical...

Here are the actual stats from one of my reloading manuals. These assume that you're using bullets weighing 124gr:

9mm:1100 FPS
.357 Sig: 1300 FPS
.38 Super: 1250 FPS

For comparison, .357 Mag, with the same bullet weight, will give you 1400 FPS. The actuall bullet diameter is slightly larger as well, 0.357 instead of the 9mms 0.355

By the way, FPS means "Feet Per Second", it's a velocity measurement.

Also, you mentioned something about using .380 rounds in your 9X18 pistol. I would not recomend doing this. While it will probably "work", it will cause extra strain on your gun and may be unsafe.

You may be interested in this link:

http://www.makarov.com/32naa/index.html

The above article tells you how to convert your Makarov pistol to shoot the new .32 NAA round. The .32 NAA is similar to the .357 Sig in that it is also a "bottleneck" round. Its a .380 case necked-down to hold .32 caliber bullets. Basicly, this gives you a much higer velocity, the trade-off being a ligher bullet weight. The conversion barrels are currently out of stock, but I'm probably going to buy one if they get more in...

On the full auto subject, I don't understand the appeal of a full auto pistol. It sounds like it would be a waste of ammo to me...

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Anyway, I'd love to see any of the dumbass gun nuts in this thread draw and shoot an english longbow, or talk their way out of a scary situation. Sadly, too many Americans these days are so quick to rely on mechanical implements. So many of their bodies and minds aren't good for sh*t.

Explain to me how shooting a longbow is a useful skill? Also, I'm much more likely to use my fists than my handgun. Just because I'm American doesn't mean I'm some fat, lazy slob. I'm in decent shape and I don't think I'm somebody you'd want to mess with, armed or not...

How ya doing, buddy?

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It is definitely apparent that both of you know more about guns than I. Perhaps one of you might know how to add more power to the rounds by adding more firing powder. I wasn't able to read the links I was sent because I'm at work now ;_;

It is possible to increase a powder charge to get a little more power out of your rounds. However, its a very bad idea. More powder means more pressure, and if you're putting your gun under more pressure than it was designed to handle, you run the risk of blowing it up, along with your hands.

That said, I use SLIGHTLY beefed up rounds in my Makarov. I've modified the gun however, so it handles them well. I'm using an extra-strong recoil spring. I use 95gr Hornady XTP bullets and "Bullseye" gunpowder. Here are some stats:

Normal Pressure 9X18 Makarov loading: 3.6gr of powder, 975 FPS

My +P 9X18 loading: 4.1gr of powder, 1040 FPS

Notice that my actualy velocity gain isn't that much compared to how much extra power I had to use. A 13% increase in powder only gave me a 6% increase in velocity...

Anyway... Yesterday morning I went target shooting with my dad. I shot is .45 ACP 1911 for the first time in many years. Now I want a 1911 even more... I think I'd rather have the .38 Super version, but .45 ACP is a great round too.

I never realized it before, but the 1911's recoil has a very different feel to it than my Makarovs recoil. I believe this is because the 1911 is a locked breech design while the Makarov is a straight blow-back design. The Makarov doesn't "Kick" as much, but it feels like it flops around in your hand alot more...

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

It is POSSIBLE to kill an elefant with a .22

That doesn't mean its the prefered way hunt one...

I might understand using a bow to hunt smaller bear like Black bear... but you'd have to be nuts to go after brown or grizzly bear with a bow...

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Just remember that before you plan to use ANY type of weapon for self defense, you need to know how to properly use the thing.

Learning a Martial art is also a good idea...

And if you're looking for a cheap handgun that works well, get a Makarov, not a High-Point...

I was speaking idiomatically.

Gumby, not 2 days ago I saw a Makarov in a gun shop for $140

I cannot stress enough how much gun you're getting for such a low price. It's a solid, combat tested pistol. Having shot several of them (in both 9X18 and .380 calibers), and owning one myself, I can honestly say I've NEVER seen one jam (I've fired at least 2,000 rounds in my own personal Makarov, jam-free). And thats with several different types of ammo, including my own home-made stuff.

The high point, on the other hand, is a boat anchor. They're freaking HUGE. Size does matter when you're talking about a carry gun. I've actually fired both guns, and trust me, the Makarov is far superior...

Also, it's RUGER, not LUGER, LOL. I have no "hands on" experiance with Ruger handguns, but I love their rifles. If their handguns are anything like the rifles, then I wouldn't hesitate to recomend one.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Like I said in my last post, I have not actually fired a RUGER (not Luger) pistol.

As for the Makarov being used, all Makarovs are used, they're millitary surplus after all. The one I got was about $130, and was in nearly-new condition, it looked like it had only been fired a few times.

About the PPK, the PPK and the Makarov are VERY similar. The design is almost exactly the same, the main differances being that the Makarov is slightly larger, both in size and caliber, and their safteys work differently. Either one would be a good choice IMHO.

I think the High-Point would be a great gun for someone who is mainly interesting in plinking and is on a budget. I just wouldn't personaly trust my life to one in self-defense situation.

FELIPE NO

Some pics I took on my shooting trip last sunday:











Wow, I just noticed that my sweater makes me look really fat

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

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The closeup of the target... which one were you shooting that time?

The 7.5X55 Swiss rifle (the one with the straight-pull bolt action).

They hit a bit high, but if I had been shooting at a target a bit farther away they would have hit dead-on...

Jam it back in, in the dark.