PLAY!/Eminence Split Thread

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I personally think Seraph is allowed to post his/her opinion on this ordeal, Mr. Maul.After reading his/her posts, I lost alot of desire to see Play! concerts. If they don't care about the music, then what is the point? If the composers aren't happy, then the fans can't be happy.

I haven't criticised many of his points, merely their presentation and his choice to express certain ones; i.e. I'm glad he said a lot of what he did, but not how he said it.

He's become very personal against Jason and Arnie and combined criticism of PLAY! with self-promotion of his own orchestra, Eminence. I don't care whether most members post respectfully or with professionalism; it's not my place to say that. But when the founder and leader of the so-called best alternative to PLAY! makes these comments repeatedly and inanely, I can't help but pity Eminence's members and feel that Western symphonic VGM concerts, Europe's aside, are temporarily doomed.

Also, I should add that, if the composers were not happy, it's not right for Seraph to act as a vector for expressing their private opinions. They entrusted Seraph to keep things private but he's used what they've told him in a way intended for his own advantage... while undermining the integrity of the composers, PLAY!, and ultimately himself in the process.

Finally, I'm not neutral in this and intend not to be a diplomat or a voice for PLAY! I was appalled by Seraph's presentation and abuse of trust. Nothing more, nothing less. I have little reason to act professional, whereas Seraph does.

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Brave or foolish? No offence, SeRaPH, but I personally think the latter in this case. The fact you're no producer (thank goodness) doesn't mean that you shouldn't still have similar responsibilities to them where professionalism is concerned. The role of concertmaster and founder are both massively important and professionalism is demanded, as the public spotlight is on them.

If you want Eminence to be a worldwide event, then several things will have to happen first, including an improvement of its image. You wonder why Jason rejected your request to perform at Sydney? Given you abuse trust and have no concept of professionalism, it's no wonder Jason sticks with professionals, albeit ones that unfortunately have little time for VGM. I have no problem with orchestras made by fans and commend you for doing this successfully, but there will be a preconception among most that the productions may be consequently lacking professionalism. When you act infantile, it only affirms this image.

Finally, have we not missed the big picture? Regardless of if PLAY! is produced by a commercialistic monster and went against copyright laws, or the fact a few composers were disappointed by their personal experiences at the concerts, they're still a tour that will satisfy many, many people. When VGM still needs more recognition, it's a great step forward, and VGL, Eminence, Leipzig, etc. exacerbate this. Commercial/critical competition isn't as important as achieving greater recognition for VGM, in my opinion.

I'm sure you're a great performer, SeRaPH, and I do wish you and Eminence the very best, though I'm sick and tired, like many others, of your biased comments full of inaccuracies and motivated by a tendency to self-promote. If you wish to make negative comments about PLAY! without abusing trust, I'd have no problem with you; however, since you continue your charade here and via PM, it's obvious you're on one childish one-man campaign

Anyway, I've said my thoughts on this many times already, so I'll be quiet now. *cues being flamed* *shrugs*

There's nowhere I can't reach.

First of all, I've received confirmation that Yura's points about PLAY! illegally using Square Enix FMVs for Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts are all wrong. Rights are owned by companies other than Square Enix for the FMVs used and Jason carefully selected them while using his 'contacts' so that no laws were bypassed. It's as I suspected. For PLAY! to blatantly abuse copyright would be highly unlikely.

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If Jason has indeed used deciet to gain all this, shouldn't it be known?

Deceit? What deceit? Money, marketing, and lots of corporate techniques, but little directly deceitful. While I think he overinflated the aims of PLAY!, he's never technically deceived.

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Well I think Play! should at least fix certain problems that Seraph here has raised, I believe it is MOST of the Japanese composers who had bad treatment and experiences when asked to appear in Play!, not a few.

It's very unfortunate that Jason did not take the composers to dinner after the Detroit concert, but that doesn't mean they had a terrible all-round experience. The feedback from the composers that have attended PLAY! was very positive and they also found their treatment generally good, though a few people privately complained about the 'meet and greet' and lack of post-concert events.

As Meiusta rightly said, 'he has no right to tell their opinions in the public, period'. Hitoshi Sakimoto and Yasunori Mitsuda entrusted him with information; no matter what the circumstances or 'honourable' intentions, Yura has no right to abuse that trust. I'm amazed it hasn't affected his relationship with these composers, though maybe they're not aware of his behaviour. If not, they should be.

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A guy who has made further concert plans with more big name Japanese composers can't possible be a horrible, unprofessional childish man that you called him as.

I never called him horrible. Unprofessional and childish, though? Well, this thread is a testament to that.

I don't care whether he likes me or not. We don't know each other and I have made lots of negative comments towards him, so I'd be shocked if he truly did like me.

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eminence obviously is using selfmade student arrangemts. they might be made with a lot of love and effort, but ... ...

Hehe. Too true.

When I see 'Harry Simons' under the role of 'Music Transcriptions and Arrangements', I have no faith in the quality of the arrangements. As much as I like Harry, he is not a trained musician and has had minimal composing experience. Heck, he hasn't even done fan arrangements. My brother was also asked to arrange for them. I have no idea why, as, again, he has no experience. Next they'll be asking me... *shudders*

I assume Eminence are desperate for giving people to arrange for them for free. When this is the case, I don't really think they should compare themselves favourably to PLAY! in terms of arrangement quality. PLAY! uses competent and experienced orchestrators as well as experienced arrangers like Fabian Del Priore and Yuzo Koshiro, who definitely give a damn. I don't think Mr. Simons quite compares.

Note: I'm not bashing Eminence maliciously here. I'm just noting their lack of professionalism and hypocrisy.

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I'm tired, but will post this one last post before retiring for good from this thread (for the sake of the moderation). Nothing said so far has denied my allegations of Yura lacking professionalism and Eminence's criticisms of PLAY! being often hypocritical, but I appreciate that there have been misunderstandings on both sides and some of my points might have led to false deductions.

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No matter how much confirmation you receive, we have hard proof which confirms the illegality of Play!'s actions. What Play! must've done was use the Disney images (owned by the Disney group) instead of the newly designed characters by Tetsuya Nomura. That's the only way I see around this (and would be satisfying to receive some sort of confirmation on. I also heard that Video Games Live also did this -- show only Disney images). So it's not 'false' or 'untrue' by any means whatsoever.

So you conceded that PLAY! used Disney's images? What's the legal issue? I'm not sure about the utilisation of FF images -- they weren't used at the Stockholm concert -- but I am dubious to the presence of a breach of copyright here. If you have proof, can you provide it?

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I have proper correspondence with Heads of SE Copyright division that they do not authorise no matter what circumstance of the use of SE images or videos other than Square Enix only concert, or a directly involved one.

I'm aware of this, but you don't have the contacts of Jason or the eminence of PLAY! I would not be surprised if SE had double-standards for PLAY! or if Jason was able to bypass copyright for what I mentioned above. Either way, the copyright issue with PLAY! does not seem significant.

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Composer's frustration is a well known fact in the Japanese VGM industry. And who mentioned my good friend Mitsuda and Sakimoto's name anyway? I for one never mentioned anything like that on any public forums.

Well, I apologise for making the obvious crystal clear. Given you explicitly referenced the Detroit concert, Sakimoto was bound to be a name that came up. Besides, you've PMed lots of people frivolously about who the names were, so abused trust anyway. Your picture of 'Yura, Shimomura, Mitsuda, and Sakimoto' has been shared around a lot and everybody knows of Eminence's links to these composers.

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I don't remember Harry arranging ANY music for Eminence Symphony Orchestra. What are you talking about? Please get your facts right.

It clearly states at Wikipedia:

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Eminence Productions
Founder & Artistic Director: Hiroaki Yura
Director of Operations: Elaine Chia
Project Co-Ordinator: Danny Ma
Senior Production Co-Ordinator: Alex Williams
Legal Advisor & Japan Liason Officer: Michael Camilleri
Artistic Advisor & Japanese Liason Officer: Harry Simons
SEAC Team: Billy Tjajadi & Steven Pham
Visual Arts Projection Manager: Demetri Potiris
Music Transcriptions and Arrangements: Nicole Brady, Jackson Harrison & Harry Simons
Executive Assistant: Aidina Aierken
Administrative Assistant: Jonathan Ng
Librarian: Lucy Yeoman
Merchandising: Belinda Mai, Dacia Thai & Bonnie Ha

There is Harry's name very clearly and it's obvious Eminence wrote that, as most people don't care about the details.

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I'm not the type to be afraid to voice out my own opinion for the "looks" and "relationship" bullshitting.

I'm glad we have something in common there. But if you want Eminence to be successful, you should consider what Harry, I, and many others think about your lack of professional presentation, which is again what this has all been about.

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And by the way stop pitying us... we pity you for the lack of knowledge in whats really happening out there and making these remarks

I don't pity you. I'm frustrated with you and appalled by you. I'm not upset because of you either. A little agitated, though, obviously.

If you pity me for my 'lack of knowledge in what's really happening out there', you must pity a lot of people. I'm not omniscient, but know more than most people and near-enough all your concert attendees. I don't think it's very professional or admirable to rebuke a paranoid inference with a mass judgement of your current and prospective audiences.

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Like I have talked with you before, I have not yet done any arrangements for Eminence. I've only examined musical score sheets and corrected some minor things in smaller arrangements. The fact that I'm not a trained musician means, theoretically, relatively little in the music world. In fact, Sakimoto was largely untrained, yet he created some of the most complex, meaningful and (in a good way) bombastic tunes found in video games. It almost reflects a close-mind in your half. I asked Dave if he could create an arrangement in comparison to the one I was making, with the hopes of either combining the two themes or using one in general. I have logs of this conversation. As for experience, well, I haven't had a lot, however I enjoy playing the piano and creating music. Is that not experience, may I ask?

Training isn't everything, but when you've had minimal experience as well, you're not going to be the next Hitoshi Sakimoto. I really hope you do continue arranging, but maybe not for Eminence. I don't know of the quality of your contributions, but it hardly reflects on the professionalism of Eminence that you and other amateurs have a significant role in the music production. I'm sure you have talent, but shouldn't experience come first?

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Harry mentioned the bad treatment of the composers from PLAY! It sounds terrible. What was Thomas Boecker's involvement in this situation? A five hour autography session? Sweden's lasted about an hour but was really rushed, horrible, and impersonal.

Have you attended a PLAY! concert yet? I did at Stockholm and have to say that I was thoroughly disappointed in most respects. The performance was lousy -- the wind soloists, guitarist, and pianist did a terrible job while it was clear from attending the 'final rehearsal' that they were utterly underrehearsed and went into no musical depth. Add that to most arrangements being rehashes of old material, really terrible transitions in most of the suites, the unpleasant reception I received from Arnie Roth, and Jason M Paul's general smarminess and insincerity...

If you wish to promote Eminence or insult PLAY!, feel free to make threads about either in my forum if you have time. It'd give me a chance to vent my negative experiences, though I decided against creating an actual review, as I don't want to have my site blacklisted or boycotted by PLAY! fanboys.

Sorry if I seem bitter. Like you, I'm a musician and a big game music fan, so it disappoints me to see such crud productions.

Take care and nice meeting you. Sorry about my initial hostility!

First of all, I did write this and stand by much of what I said. I am not a PLAY! fan and have many criticisms of the concert and the production. I got terrible vibes from Jason and strongly suspect he doesn't care about game music. My issue was with you was always regards to presentation and the fact discussion of PLAY! became interlinked with Eminence.

Secondly, I did misunderstand a lot at the time of writing this and have since had discussions that show a lot of what you posted was rubbish. In addition, I've learnt that the disappointment in the performance quality at Sweden (the soloists, principally) was not paralleled by the other concerts. There were many positive things about the Sweden performance, as I mentioned clearly in my mini-review, but what you said in combination with initial disappointments at the time greatly skewed. I think people should be aware of its flaws, but I have never said it wasn't a great experience for mainstream fans or a fun event.

Thirdly, I do not appreciate you abusing trust yet again. This is what I was getting at with regards to how you flaunted what Hitoshi Sakimoto and Yasunori Mitsuda said.

Finally, I have not been brainwashed. I was initially brainwashed by you. Now I take a moderate stance that is critical of your professionalism and PLAY! Not a safe place to be, but better than the alternatives for someone as unwise and vocal as me.

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I'm starting to think that Meiusta and Mr. Maul are one....

You mean, because another person has a similar viewpoint to me, despite having different sleeping habits and a contrasting written style, we must be dupes? You're welcome to IP check me here, mods. Meiusta and Mr. Maul are not one.

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Basically, I'm asking for you not to even judge us without overlooking our management first hand or our entire performances. The hate you have for us right now is rather senseless without those two prerequisites.

Fair enough, but I have never made a judgement on your worth as a symphony orchestra. I've just used the limited evidence I have had to criticise Yura's professionalism, hypocrisy, and self-promotion (he's already admitted that 'The whole idea of posting on Gamingforce was the grab international attention, good or bad. We achieved that anyway and have no need to really post there anymore') while understandably inferring from that the standards of the management as a whole. I clearly stated that I wish Eminence well and encourage the idea of fans' orchestras. As soon as people from such orchestras start criticising other orchestras while self-promoting, though, there will be casualties on both sides. PLAY! and Eminence are two different things, each with individual merits, but both should maintain integrity, professionalism, and a desire to promote VGM in my opinion. Eminence has great potential and it distresses me to see Yura sacrificng its integrity with his preceding points. These points gives me hope:

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As Yura has said, we have had our transcriptions and arrangements praised by such composers as Kow Otani and Masashi Hamauzu.

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We pay Nicole Brady who worked for the Sydney Olympics and Tan Dun to get our orchestral transciptions.

Good luck guys, but please consider the more constructive elements of my posts.

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Play! lost ever since they started CHARGING for effin' autographs. Tommy T. and Yura are in the right here, they don't charge exhorbitant prices for the show and you get to meet the composers with your initial ticket purchase.

Agreed. The charging sucks, but they haven't consistently charged, only in the two or three concerts with the biggest names.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Tommy:

Are you able to inform if Jason M. Paul is actually interested in game music? I'm aware that the main reason he is running PLAY! and has the rights to FF music is because his girlfriend is something big in Square Enix (and hence that was why you were double-crossed). Is there some link to him and game music or is he just a (bad) businessman? His transparent comment at FFSymphony indicating that he thought "Swing de Chcoobo" was the best piece of game music ever created made me laugh.

Anyway, I'm appalled to hear what you and SeRaPH have said. I do think it's important that people are made aware of the commercialism and deceit behind PLAY!, so thanks for being so courageously honest about this. It seems a pity that only those also intent on self-promotion have so far 'spoken out', though I appreciate there is also a 'humanistic' concern. It's little wonder people like Meiusta think as they do, though I do believe VGL and Eminence care about game music and their fans.

I'm not hostile towards VGL in any way. It sounds like a great event and very fun. However, I've always considered it to have unique merits from PLAY! and not a true 'symphonic game music concert' (hence 'I can't help but pity Eminence's members and feel that Western symphonic VGM concerts, Europe's aside, are temporarily doomed' was not intended to be degradatory towards VGL). Do you consistently employ use of professional symphony orchestras? Is Jack Wall as competent a conductor as Arnie Roth? Are all performances well-rehearsed ones? Is it a valid alternative to PLAY! for those who want it? Will the mainstream fan find it just as enjoyable as they might PLAY!?

Anyway, would like to publicly apologise for the naive comments that Jason hasn't deceived. In addition, having now heard one of their CDs, I'm glad to say that SeRaPH's lack of professionalism isn't synonymous with their musicality. Sorry if people feel I should mind my own business; probably true, but when I was arguably misled into promoting PLAY! and attending their Sweden concert, I feel somewhat bitter. Furthermore, when I see concerts with potential like Eminence acting self-degradatory, it makes me really worry about the state of VGM concerts in general. I hear contrasting things constantly from those and no longer really know what to believe, though I still retain the belief that PLAY! is a good and fun experience for mainstream game music fans. I'll be attending next summer's Leipzig concert, but don't think I'll be bothering with anything else.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Tommy,

Thanks for your response. It's clear that there are a lot of misconceptions about VGL going about due to propaganda etc. and I'm glad you were able to clear them up.

The true 'symphonic game music concert' bit came from hearing of a lack of performers on stage and how VGL utilised synth principally on some occasions. Furthermore, with VGL's emphasis on audience participation, rock concert features, and an overall fun image, I wasn't sure what the standard of the performances were like to complement this. I'm not sure how musically mature VGL's arrangements are, but it's clear you use competent orchestrators and an experienced conductor. I might be going to the London VGL performance, so soon I should be able to see for myself.

I apologise for making you feel uncomfortable. The questions were inspired by curiosity and a need to clarify confusion that to be accusational or intimidating. It's my intention to be open and honest, not offensive, though when there is contrasting views coming from all parties -- largely from people intent on self-promotion -- I have little idea what to think other than it has become one big mess. Maybe PLAY! is the only enemy in this, though I still feel Seraph acted unprofessionally and find it regrettable that you and Jason are clearly at war (though you seem to have good reason).

Finally, it's admirable that, despite everything, you've not sacrificed your integrity by degrading PLAY! beyond in a 'political' sense. I'm really pleased you stated 'I LOVE the fact that VGM has gotten so popular that it's offering the audiences different choices and options. Heck! I say to everyone... PLEASE GO TO ALL OF THEM!! SUPPORT EVERYONE!!'. It's in this point that you appear to be considering all audiences and VGM in general. I have much much respect that you and Thomas are both able to do this, but it's a shame Jason and Seraph still can't.

Tetre,

Is that one of your compliments?

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'he gave his perspective on the topic'. i have a hard time beliving that everything he said MUST be right suddenly. no offense, t. t., i would not trust jason michel paul or whoevr.

Well, I'm inclined to agree to an extent. If what Tommy says is entirely accurate, I still don't understand why I've heard reports from many people independent from PLAY! stating that VGL isn't equivalent a symphonic concert in terms of performance quality and use of live instruments (i.e. lots of synth use, some shoddy performances, etc.). However, most of his points seemed reasonable.

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both of you are too much into promoting your own thign. t. t. obviously is very very clever in doing so.

Maybe so. As I've stated, everyone is self-promoting and putting their own spin on things, making the situation rather terrible right now. Tommy has made great contributions to VGM, though, and is a talented and passionate musician, so I hold him in greater esteem that Jason. Furthermore, I'm glad he's willing to promote everyone and think that is largely sincere, even though there's likely a double agenda as well.

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it is not regrettabel, it should put both in shame because they are adults and no children anymore.

It's regrettable for the world of game music. I don't have that much sympathy for the individuals, though.

By the way, I apologise for unintentionally offending all of the four major producers (Tommy T, Thomas Boecker, Hiroaki Yura, and Jason M. Paul) in the space of a week. I'm outspoken, critical, and stupid, but still ultimately love VGM and feel all of you make constructive contributions to it in some way. It's just a shame pretty much everyone clouds the truth with a desire for self-promotion and money. This competition is terrible.

FELIPE NO

Tommy,

Thanks for the reply.

The explanation of the synth issue is appreciated. It makes me feel much more about VGL as a symphonic experience. I'm amazed about the misinformation going around. I'll be sure to check out YouTube to hear for myself.

As I've previously said, I might be going to VGL in London (really hope so), though I'm not sure if it'll clash with the biggest university of the year. I'd really like to experience it and will hopefully like it. Even if I don't, at least I'll be less naive and confused.

I still find it regrettable all this surfaced in a public forum that has a lot of big personalities and plenty of piracy (no offence to Gamingforce). I truly believe there could have been a better way for you to clear up all the misinformation or for the truth about Jason to get out. All this fighting between PLAY!, Eminence, and VGL surely compromises a lot of people (fans, composers, and performers alike) and certainly doesn't do the image of VGM much good. However, I agree that the actions of Jason have often been unacceptable and am glad to have been made aware of them. It's just a shame that nobody is going to come out of this affair too well.

Anyway, I still support you, Tommy, and VGL, though am not abandoning support for anyone. I still think PLAY!, Leipzig, VGL, and Eminence offer unique things to the VGM world and, while it's easy and tempting to adopt Meiusta's viewpoint, I'll only do this with regards to the politics. Producers appear to be nasty people hell-bent on deceit and self-promotion (though I'm sure a few are lovely underneath), but at least you create good music.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?