VGL - Split Discussion

Given the point of this thread is to say your concert is still on, shouldn't you call it 'New Haven, CT show still on'?

I presume you intend this thread to be dedicated to spreading bad publicity of PLAY! Of course, you'll adamantly deny it and say you're trying to help prospective PLAY! concert attendees out. It's a shame you and Jason are still at each other's throats. Doesn't do VGM as a whole much good. Sorry if I've missed something and you've suddenly become Jason's online spokesperson.

Anyway, good to hear your concert is still on and, if you ever come to the UK again when I'm not double-booked, I should be there.

How ya doing, buddy?

Kairi, you twist my words and make far too many assumptions. I'm not supporting PLAY! I'm aware of the farce and was somewhat disappointed by the concert I attended. You didn't see the original thread and how the title was worded; there was a problem and most agreed.

I'll clarify my standpoint on this matter. I find it incredibly bad how childish Tommy and Jason's argument has got on both sides. I find both parties full of bullshit and wouldn't trust either of them; this isn't going to change no matter what Tommy says. I lost my faith in PLAY!, Eminence, and VGL in the thread where the argument was made public. I don't dismiss the quality of both VGL and PLAY!'s productions and feel both should satisfy fans. It's just a pity that everything has become so commercial, unprofessional, and competitive. Way to go, Tommy and Jason.

As for 'professional stride', making public the argument in a forum partly dedicated to illegal downloading seems much more unprofessional than anything Jason has done. Tommy has done everything but slander. As for being outwardly honest about it, I'm sure he's doing as many underhand things as Jason. I believe he's fake. I find the situation sickening.

I don't have much more to say on the matter. I know I'll be flamed and resented for expressing this. Whatever Tommy's response, it won't gain my trust or respect back, even if I still would like to one day attend VGL for the sake of a pleasant evening.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

The merged thread is a good example of what I don't trust about him. The declared purpose of the thread was to say VGL was still on -- an honourable purpose perhaps, but not one that deserved a separate thread. However, the title of the thread was PLAY! cancelled (or something along those lines) and some PLAY! bashing was also contained within the post. A very cunning but misjudged attempt to self-promote and degrade competitor at the same time in which Tommy assumed an unlikely role of a messenger that allowed him to cover his tracks. The conspiracy was unfortunately too transparent here and the explanation that followed did not cut it with me.

Perhaps my view on Tommy is paranoid and extreme. I have respect for Tommy that he is an actual VGM composer and produces largely enjoyable works. However, I do find it dubious that a grown man can't sort out his differences with a competitor and resorts to bashing in a public forum. I don't think he states the facts and that's all; he twists them, exaggerates them, and puts spin on them while also self-promoting, much like Yura of Eminence.

There's always an alterior motive for producers and, if you think Tommy is just trying to help those prospective PLAY! attendees, you're wrong. It's about winning publicity, getting money, and becoming the victor through dirty means. And posting here is pretty dirty, no disrespect to Gamingforce. If Tommy truly cared about the fans, he would sort out his problems with Jason, put VGM as a whole above his personal aims, and stick by his claim to 'SUPPORT THEM ALL'. Of course, he can't do that as VGL needs to sell tickets and PLAY! is viable competition that produces concerts of high quality. And, as I've always said, I'd happily attend a PLAY!, Eminence, or VGL concert if their good quality and the background isn't enough for me to turn my back on them as musical experiences.

If you have evidence of Tommy's benevolence, Kairi, why not post it? So far, though, I'm seeing slime and spin.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Cool! I've never seen you publicly lose your temper before, though I knew it was in there. I don't see how what I say is slander, bullshit, or particularly alarming; your responses seem to be generic and unsubstantiated to me. I also don't see how I should be professional; I'm not represented anyone or anything. To me, being a video game music fan isn't about unconditionally trusting producers; it's about loving the music. And I wish all VGM concerts the best of success because it's good to spread the music to the world. Doesn't mean I like the guys behind it, though...

Honestly, I wish you the best of luck with VGL as it sounds like a great experience. However, it's a damn shame that you can't resolve things with Jason and insist on undermining each other. I don't trust you or like what you're doing here, but I haven't turned my back on VGL altogether and will attend if you come to England again. Rather not meet you, though, in fear of a punch.

Kairi, I'm responding here as a fan, not a site owner. I'm not being pretentious, per se, just outrageously and foolishly honest. It's a downfall, I admit it, but I'm not trying to be better than anyone else. I wish I could be anonymous when making these comments. Also, why do you still insist on telling me about PLAY!? I don't trust them just like I don't trust VGL. Can't you understand that I don't like anybody? I'm not supporting any party...

Anyway, I'll let Tommy's thread continue its normal path now...

P.S. - Tommy, I did not call you slanderous. Read again.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I don't see anything substantiated in your post. It's just generic insults and inane rhetorical questions to make me seem bad. If you haven't lost your temper, you don't seem very calm to me; I find your post very aggressive and feel you try to be offensive and patronising. It supports my view that your benevolent public image yourself is a load of spin. It also makes me speculate why Jason wouldn't want to cooperate with someone as uncompromising as you are.

If you remember, I was responding to Kairi's point frankly. I find it terrible you can't resolve your conflict with Jason and I know many who feel the same. I don't enjoy your spin and how you present yourself and similarly know others who feel the same. I did not accuse you of slander, but was honest that I couldn't trust you. I didn't express open hostility or say anything bad about VGL. You respond to me like I'm a brutal attacker; perhaps understandable, but I said I liked the principle of VGL, enjoy your compositions, and would like to attend VGL, so am I really that vile by not giving unconditional support?

As for Mr. Maul = Mr. Paul, very funny, but I've already made it clear I dislike all parties involved. If I were a PLAY! representative, I'd not be a very encouraging one.

If you prefer to focus on the positives in life, cut out the degradation of PLAY! and look at your concert instead. I'm sorry for my insensitivity and stupidity, but I cannot trust you.

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I went to the LA VGL, I saw Tommy going on stage himself as an MC, I can FEEL the goddamn passion and energy in him, I can feel his love for music when he performed the goddamn Halo 3 theme on stage.

Why do you insist on making this an issue of musicality? It's an issue of administration. I don't doubt the passion of VGL, Eminence, and PLAY! It doesn't mean I find their administration acceptable. I've never claimed Tommy acted musical inspiration; that'd be damn stupid of me. I've just criticised how he's going about dealing with the competition.

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It's so easy for someone like him to sit in his ivory tower of doubt and distrust and throw insults and lies on us... but then cover it up by saying things like... "but I still want to go to your show if your ever in town again".

I haven't lied; I've expressed an opinion that may or may not be valid. I can understand that my attitude comes across belittling and patronising; I should really work on my tone and tact. However, I find it regrettable that nobody prepares to speak up to you when you go around degrading another concert series. I'd love it if all parties were happy and would not be so antagonistic myself, but I'm unprepared to take sides when all of you seem at fault.

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Mr. Maul, please, we have gone around the world with the issues about our so-called 'lies' and 'exaggerations'. I can't speak for Tommy or Video Games Live, but I can say that everything Yura and I have posted is 100% accurate. I'm just a bit puzzled why we keep touching on this issue.

I agree that this issue is touched upon too much and it is largely my fault. I shoud not make provocative posts in the presence of Kairi, even if my initial post that prompted the inquisition was quite justified.

However, when VGL and Eminence are unofficial partners, I find any post you make on the issue biased. It'd be interesting if VGL and Eminence were enemies again, but with Tommy, I guess there's only two things -- allies and antagonists.

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I hope you can get over your misanthropic attitude and be able to see who these people really are, not producers looking for a way for a quick buck, but musicians and creative people showing the word that video game music is not lame or stupid or kiddies stuff. Its an amazing world filled with different stories to tell through music.

I don't see anything coming from Jason, Tommy, or Yura that gives me faith in the administration of these concerts. I like your comment about them showing the world what VGM is made of; but when there's so much competition, this doesn't happen and fans, composers, and producers all get cheated as a result.

My constructive point: THIS SHIT NEEDS TO BE SORTED OUT. If Tommy, Yura, and Jason continue their respective feuds, public perception of VGM will falter and people will lose respect for these concerts of great potential. I like what everyone is doing, but why can't people be less competitive? You seem to just blame PLAY! but everyone is contributing to the mess. Oh no... the idealist is coming out in me after all that misanthropic bitterness. I'm sorry for the offense I've caused and promise I won't derail a thread like this again. However, something needs to change.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Kairi Li

How can all parties be happy when ONE of them is spreading lies that affects the other two?!

Everyone is putting spin on things... making one party look bad while self-promoting. The competition between Jason and Tommy started even before the formulation of PLAY! and VGL. Jason was foolish to lie but that wasn't the start of the antagonism and Tommy did nothing to make it better. Everyone is spreading lies about each other and it's a big mess.

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And please read my last post, you caused this thread to derail into this, you need to end this by explaining yourself completly.

I have nothing to quote. What I said was with respect to the attitudes they present in interviews, not the content of what they say. I haven't read enough interviews to quote specific examples (and never claimed to have examples). I don't intend to either as they're all pretty much the same. However, one example of Eminence and VGL lying back was about PLAY! using illegal images/clips; turned out that wasn't the case after all after both of you insisted that was so.

I don't think I'm entirely to blame. You responded antagonistically to a reasonable point and Tommy lost his temper to my expression of mistrust. I tried to leave it, as I knew it were not productive, but, as usual, we all dig the hole deeper and still make VGM concerts look like a rut in general.

FELIPE NO

The initial claim was they were showing whole illegal clips at all concerts. I see no clips. Now it's reduced to Rinoa being on a Dear Friends logo, which seems quite legal to me. Given it's Dear Friends not PLAY!, it's highlighting an actual event from the same producer and describing it accurately. Of course, I'm not a lawyer.

Kairi, you're still not understanding my point. All parties are undermining the unity of VGM as a whole. Nobody is doing anything about it. Spin is being put on all sides. I never claimed Jason slandered, but he does many things to subtle undermine PLAY!, as evidenced by yesterday's thread, and occassionally lies, as evidenced by the clips thing.

You want people to take sides, but truth is, both concerts are good additions to VGM and can produce thoroughly enjoyable evenings. Even Tommy claims to see the validity of supporting them all, though you want PLAY! to crash and burn because you're not allied with them. Open your mind to either all of them or close your mind to each of them. None is better than the other; they're just different.

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Originally Posted by hsimons

We never lied. And it's the absolute truth. If you would like confirmation, please by all means contact Square Enix and ask. I haven't been to a Play! concert so I can't say for sure if they were used illegally, but even that image on the Play! website of Rinoa can be classed and assumed as a breach of copyright.

Dear Friends and More Friends however, that's a completely different case (despite being run by the same people).

But you have lied, albeit unintentionally. You assumed too much about the videos of Disney's Kingdom Hearts (and they were initially concert videos you mentioned, not images). You don't even have proper evidence that the image of Rinoa is illegal; you assume it can be classed as a breach of copyright. You're clutching at straws and have no substantial proof of breach of copyright, just the quote:

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1) I have proper correspondence with Heads of SE Copyright division that they do not authorise no matter what circumstance of the use of SE images or videos other than Square Enix only concert, or a directly involved one.

Until you get official proof from Square Enix that PLAY! breached copyright, Eminence and VGL have lied. Besides, you said you were certain the videos were a breach of copyright until I got official confirmation they were Disney's. So you've lied no matter what. Just like Jason...

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Play! has mediocre arrangments, and most of them are not even original. Alot of them are taken from existing material and are practically ccarbon copies of them. THe Chocbo arrangement is brass de chocobo from FFX. The Kingdom hearts medly was butchered with very little Yoko material and more Utada, and yet Yoko was invited as a guest. The Metal gear solid theme was, ick, was nothing compared to VGL.

I thought you've never been to a PLAY! concert? I agree that the Metal Gear Solid theme was controversial, but at least the arrangement is original (unlike VGL's carbon copy). I didn't hear many carbon copies at Stockholm save for Kingdom Hearts, which I did criticise. Anyway, support what you want, but that doesn't mean you have to start a bashing campaign when you know little (other than the situation is a mess and nobody is helping to improve it).

However, this is not an issue of musicality on my part...

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Kairi Li

I told you before, I heard the leaked recordings someone posted here, you obviously didn't read my posts and chose selectivly.

Sounds familiar doesn't it?

And how did YOU know VGL was a carbon copy? You have never been to one. Besides, I'm find with carbon copies as long as they aknowledged it or cut them up right.

LOLZ. Hypocrite! I've heard MGS' arrangement from a YouTube video. A high-quality one too unlike the Stockholm rip which was so much better in the real thing.

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Their Chocobo arrangment was claim to be original by Roth, it wasn't, its from FFX. Lying.

If you have the More Friends CD and the FFX OST, compare "Brass de Chocobo" and "Swing de Chocobo". You'll see the latter is much more elaborate and accomplished. Arnie did an excellent job here and did plenty of arranging, despite clearly being inspired by "Brass...".

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Point being, I don't want to support a concert that does a bad job and refuses to improve themselves.

The new Stockholm concerts sound very promising. There has been nice variety in the concerts overall even if there was room for more. PLAY! have done a decent job overall in this respect and haven't been bettered by VGL or Eminence.

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There is such a thing as a concert thats better in performance, arrangement and quality. Play! failes at all of them, and its within my right to not go to their concert. I opened my mind to them and they sullied it. Now this is NOT a black and white issue of "you either care about all of them or ignore everything".

That's an opinion, not a fact. VGL and PLAY! achieve different things but have been widely appreciated by various audiences. That poor Stockholm rip did not compare to being there at the real thing.

But why do you still insist on making this a point of musicality? PLAY!, VGL, and Eminence are all very musically accomplished and suit different audiences. What you prefer should not affect who you support in this serious issue of administration.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Kairi Li

A concert that does horribly in adminstration and the actual production deserves no credit. If fans want to go , its their choice, and no one aside from me perhaps, has sway them to do so. Meaning Tommy and Seraph had done nothing to deserve your contempt.

They've acted unprofessionally, attempted to insult me, and have contributed unfavourably to VGM unity. I have much reason, both personal and otherwise, to have unpleasant thoughts towards them. But let's not go further down this road...

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And I posted again and again about the Rinoa image thing, please read it.

I did not need to be told which image it was. I've already clarified this issue. hsimons already explicitly said that VGL and Eminence assumed a breach of copyright, but never had it officially confirmed. Those images are likely an exception because they're an image of a concert with credit to the concert given, not just any old image copied over. In addition, prior to that, they made a completely inaccurate claim that they had definitive proof that Kingdom Hearts videos abused copyright. I'm not a lawyer, but given your interpretation of other issues, I would not trust a single thing you said on this issue. Until SE gives explicit confirmation that these images are illegal, we should assume the claims of VGL and Eminence are dubious.

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And I posted again and again about the Rinoa image thing, please read it.

Your opinion about which is better is still not relevant. One, because it is so subjective and biased (most people enjoy both and you've still not attended, felt, or properly heard a PLAY! concert). Two, because it's an issue of administration, not musicality. You're trying to mindwash and once more reflect why both sides are manipulators. Anyway, I'm going round with circles with you, so I'm getting out of here. I don't think I have anything more to say.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Thank you for confirming my point, Harry. You unintentionally but unequivocally lied.

As for the so-called definitive proof you can't post here, how can I trust anything Eminence claims? It sounds like another lie to me. If you want to proof me wrong, please contact me privately and I'll keep it to myself.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

http://www.gamingforce.com/forums/ge...ost253492.html (The post that started it all)

Originally Posted by Seraph

Correct. Square Enix never license their FMAs unless it's their own official concert. What PLAY! did, even on their official website with Rinoa on a screen is completely illegal and a fraud. What's more, I'm not sure if they used Final Fantasy in their booklet... but from the information we got from Square Enix, that is also unlicensed.

He stated it was completely illegal and a fraud. Given Harry has explicitly stated what I'm about to quote, they've lied:

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The image example in this case was just that, an example. I never firmly said that it was a breach (after all, I'm not part of Square Enix's rights division), but could be classed as breach.

Contradiction? No? Add that to the confession that 'perhaps misinformed about Play!'s video production work' and some of Jason's actions don't seem so bad after all.

I was speaking idiomatically.

The tour sounds like a solid innovation. If I reconcile my differences with you by then, I will attend the UK concert. Would all those concerts be financially viable? I was surprised at how well PLAY! in Stockholm went, so I guess they could be. It'll be quite a few firsts for a lot of countries. Good luck 'in a way'.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Thought it'd be best to keep my sincre pleasantries to PM after your public fest of generic showman insults. Glad you found it insulting after all the flames you gave me earlier (that didn't hurt). Given your disproportionate antagonism towards my distrust, I felt like being extreme. Sorry if I scared you. Thanks for your predictable generic response. Have anything constructive to say to my actually constructive post?

P.S. - You missed the lame 'HAHAHAHAHAAAA' at the top of your PM response. I know you weren't laughing really.

FELIPE NO

It's become all too clear that these threads go round in circles. Mr. Maul posts something negative, a few producers give some tolerant perhaps inflammatory responses back, and Kairi supports them despite being full of bias. All those who have responded to me either are looking to self-promote or have no degree of objectivity. There's complete lack of regard for VGM as a whole and nobody seems to want to make this situation better; rather scapegoat PLAY! when everyone is responsible. It's a real pity Eminence jumped on the bandwagon when they could have been the party above all the squabbling, though I understand why they'd wish to no longer be enemies of the 'formidable' Tommy.

As for my sudden change of heart about attending a VGL performance, is it not surprising that I was alienated after this hostile and destructive post. I've not even decided whether I will attend a UK tour performance, given I'm curious as to what VGL is like and wouldn't mind having a nice evening. But, at the moment, it'd be ridiculous for me to given how hostile Tommy has been and I don't particularly want to fund him now I've seen his darker side. I'm pretty consistent usually, but this thread made my perception of Tommy and VGL drop massively. I find it appalling Tommy would act in this way in a public forum, regardless of just how antagonistic the posts he is responding to are.

Seraph, I apologise about the naive freak comment. It was late and I meant to say Kairi, not you, as you didn't ignite any negative feelings in this thead. The comment might seem harsh, but I had to endure ten PMs stating 'Post the GODDAMN interviews' (when I made it clear from the start that I used the interviews to infer about the attitude of the producers, not anything content-wise) and then started manipulating my words against me. I find it frustrating when a person selectively reads what I said and never concedes to anything. He/she makes assumptions, selectively reads, twists my words, and shows a tonne of bias. Perhaps Kairi is a nice person, but he/she thoroughly irritated me in this thread and several before that.

Yes, I'm a naive British biochemistry student clearly without the wisdom to 'shut up'. However, you guys should beware of forming some sort of 'elite sect'. Public opinion is important and I know I'm not the only one with my views, as evidenced by comments by Meiusta and RainMan. I'm just the only one stupid enough to say it. I entirely regret opening my big gob, particularly when I'm not anonymous. I don't think it's at all surprising that I suspect Tommy is 'full of shit' and isn't worthy of my trust; I think this thread is an indicator of what he's like. It entirely reaffirmed my suspicions that he was an aggressive antagonist in the war and an individual incapable of compromise of accepting responsibility. Even so, even I was shocked by the stupidity of some of his comments. I expressed doubt and mistrust, but I don't think this demanded Tommy's initial response.

All this thread has consisted of is about four or five allies attacking me for posting criticism of variable but often reasonable worth. You read everything I say like it's meant with malicious intent; often I wish you never existed but I don't actually enjoy fighting with mostly competent belligerent musicians who have made impressive productions. You make it seem like I have a chip on my shoulder and am full of resentment; I'm not and manage good relationships with many successful producers and musicians, e.g. Thomas Boecker (who I did not criticise, contrary to Tommy's post). If you guys went about your business not degrading other concert series and considering the needs of VGM fans and composers, I would not feel any resentment. I also applaud the success of VGL, PLAY!, and Eminence to date.

Even if you disagree with any criticism, is this thread not evidence that the feud has gone too far and everything is a mess? Does it not inspire you to try to make things better? Why can two adults not resolve their differences? Why does everything get so petty and pedantic? Why is it simplified to the good guys vs. the bad guys when the feud is a reflection of mutual antagonism for years? Why can't you people try to establish unity of VGM? Is there really nothing of worth that I said? I apologise for my destructiveness, but not all was horrible. Also, I should say that why is this competition necessary? Aren't PLAY! and VGL both doing very well, according to reports both financially and musically? Why do you insist on trying to destroy a concert tour that many enjoy, Seraph and Tommy?

I'm truly sorry for the atrocity that precedes and accept responsibility. Regardless of how right or wrong the naive and outspoken VGM fan is, however, it doesn't change the fact the situation is an utter mess and none of you are making it any better. Please, oh please, try to see the constructive points of my posts.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Hi, I respect your opinion, but the Oxford thing was just in response to Tommy saying I wouldn't get anywhere and was made via PM. It was not relevant to this thread and certainly does not make my opinion any more substantial. Thanks.

I'm not trying to condone my actions and have accepted responsibility for them. However, I still don't think the response of Tommy makes the terrible situation better. I'm glad we agree on the point about the VGM conflict being worrying.

I don't want to argue anymore. I believe there's something constructive in what I've said and I don't think much original can come from more oppressive responses. Either way, I think I've said everything I want to and quite a bit more.

Jam it back in, in the dark.