Why not legalize prostitution?

Enter the conservative...

I'm actually finding it tough to object on anything other than morals. I just don't want to live in a place that condones that type of industry. On the other hand, nobody seems to be shoving the stripper way of life down the throats of young girls. Although it's a dramatic leap, widespread legalization of prostitution hopefully wouldn't permeate society anymore than gentlemen clubs do.

I've heard that places with legalized prostitution like Denmark have very impressive stats with regards to STDs, teen pregnancy, and even higher average age of virgins. Better than in comparison with countries that have outlawed it. (can anyone confirm this?)

But I'm still against it. Nyeah nyeah! Whether or not anyone shares my morals or not, I would still push to keep prostitution illegal. Hmm, let's get rid of the strip clubs while we're at it too. MWA HA HA! I honestly feel we'd be better off without those types of things. The world I'm imagining probably isn't as fun, but overall it would be happier one. Hrm, better qualify that last sentence by saying, "...at least in my opinion."

But what's the point? 1. Looks like most of you disagree with me. (D'oh!) 2. The other 49 states are very unlikely to amend their laws. (Hooray!) And 3., prostitutes are still going to work, legal or not, throughout the U.S. (Waah!)

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Well I'm glad at least one person was offended by me. I'll try harder. I thought "nyeah nyeah" was a dead give away that I wasn't being all that serious. Oh well.

Religious argument: Is anybody really going to be shocked that most of the major religions find prostitution to be a deplorable act? Moving on...

Moral argument: In general I'm against anything I wouldn't want my kids (if I had any) to be a part of. Prostitution, casual sex, gangs, recreational drug use, violence, etc, etc, etc. Yeah, I'm really that boring and close minded. I don't even want to see this stuff advertised or accepted by society in general. So all I do is continue to vote for legislation that suits me. If I'm overruled by the majority I'll learn to deal with it. I'm not going to pack my bags and head overseas in disgust. Nyeah nyeah!

I strongly disagree that people should be allowed to do any old thing they want within the confines of their private lives. Drug abuse affects more than just the one person who does it. Sexual indecency has an emotional impact that goes beyond just the two people involved. It may also have a medical impact that can be so widespread it's frightening. The negative impact these things have on society is too much (imho) to justify the desired rights of the individual. And where do you draw the line? No large group of people is ever going to agree on whether or not a 25 year old can legally have a sexual relationship with a 17 year old. Whichever side you are in favor of, there is going to be a split between people who are comfortable and people who aren't with, oh...let's say a kindergarten teacher who paid her way through college by being a prostitute. If prostitution is legal, who's to say that's unacceptable? How do people in Vegas deal with these issues? :\

But like the situation in the U.S. is really gonna change any time soon. Yay for me!

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I must admit I'm coming around a bit on this issue. But if it were on a ballot in my state I'd still vote 'no'. I know the situation is bad, not unlike recreational drug industry. Legalizing these things would certainly repair a great deal of pain and suffering that occurs in these trades. But it would also expose a greater number of people to different tragedies. Which is the worse of two evils? I'm of the frame of mind that people would be better off if they were restricted from certain harmful things in life. Of course no two people will agree on what those things are. You get "uptight pricks" like me on one end of the spectrum and libertarians on the other who feel governments should stay out of people's business. I'm fully aware that my views are restrictive, but from my point of view I just don't like seeing people involved in anything harmful. And while I'm not going to hit the streets and force everyone to adhere to my ideals; I will express myself to friends, family, and even in an open discussion on the internet.

Anybody see Chasing Amy? I'm the kind of guy who can forgive people for the transgressions of their past. At the same time I wish they wouldn't have done those things in the first place.

How ya doing, buddy?

At it's worst, sex can be forced upon people against their will.

With regards to consenting adults having sex; I still think it can be and has been harmful to society. Promiscuity has led to the spread of disease. Adultery has made a tremendous amount of people utterly miserable, enraged, and/or depressed. There is a great deal of women who have fallen into the trap of basing their self-esteem around sexual encounters. Fornication has provided a boon of unwanted and uncared for children. This is the most harmful aspect in my opinion. And even if I set my religious views aside, as a human being I feel that sex without love cheapens and demeans the act. Prostitution figures heavily into most of what I just mentioned.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Ouch. You asked me a question. I'm sorry you don't like the answer.

Originally Posted by sprouticus

But wouldn't you agree that if prostitution in some form was legalized, this worst-case-scenario would become less and less likely?

I don't feel that legalized prostitution will have much of an effect in lowering the rate of sex crimes such as rape, incest, and child molestation. I agree that those already involved in illegal prostitution would benefit tremendously, but that isn't nearly enough for me to comfortably support such a change in law.

Originally Posted by sprouticus

You can't blame the act of sexual intercourse for any of this.

I don't blame sex for anything. I'm not sure what you mean by that, but it doesn't make any sense to me either. I do think sex can be misused by people in a way that it harmful to people, but that's much different than 'blaming sex'.

Originally Posted by sprouticus

Everything you listed is the fault of the person who makes it their fault, they just don't have the balls to man up and take the blame themselves, so they drop the ol' "ITS SOCIETY'Z FAULT LOL"

I'm sorry, I didn't know you were looking for other types of examples. It's a bit unfair of you to get upset about it when the burden really wasn't on me to second guess you like that. Hmm, how about the teenager who feels compelled to seek out destructive and frequent sexual relationships because of exposure to sexual and physical abuse at home? Some will take pity, others will say, 'Get over it and shape up your life'. An alarming number of people (not all, in case that's what you think I'm suggesting) in legal sexual industries such as erotic dancing (yes, i'm aware that dancers and patrons don't have sex) and pornography were the victims of sexual abuse. When you learn the situation of an individual it is sometimes becomes difficult to place fault on them.

Originally Posted by sprouticus

Not everyone who has out-of-wedlock sex spreads disease and spits out children. If your stone tablet doctrine of "no promiscuous sex" reached critical mass, do you honestly think that would do society any good?

I didn't mean for you to think that I said that ALL promiscuous people carry and spread disease; that ALL pre-marital sex leads to unwanted children. I didn't even come close to expressing that as an absolute. I maintain that the spread of STDs and the increase in unwanted children being born has everything to do with people having sex irresponsibly. Honestly? Yes, I think it would benefit society in general if promiscuity wasn't accepted or practiced.

Originally Posted by sprouticus

Drugs are illegal, so what do we have? Drug trafficking.
Selling sex is illegal, so what do we have? Prostitution.

I suppose I can agree that if something it illegal...then the people who do it do so illegally. (!?!?) I see the point you're trying to make, but to me it isn't a strong enough argument. It holds up poorly in other scenarios and I don't view your examples as victimless crimes.

Originally Posted by sprouticus

Teaching abstinence instead of safe sex is probably a good place to start.

Yes, I completely agree that encouraging abstinence is an excellent way to go. I still think people need to learn about safe sex as well.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Can someone else yell at me please? Sorry Sprouticus. There's a few good points you make. But the rest of it is changing my words around recklessly and a lot of stuff that just doesn't make sense or is oddly irrelevant.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Ah...much better. Thank you.

Sorry for getting defensive. I promise I just thought I was answering a question about how sex can be harmful. I'm not the one who posed the question. I answered the question as simply as it was presented to me. My answer was brief an unspectacular, but it answered the question. Sex can be harmful. And so can a table saw, a bottle of bleach, the old refrigerator in the garage, etc. This doesn't really demand that I need to answer any differently. I'm used to being flamed, but it's hard to respond when I don't know what I'm being yelled at for.

I certainly wouldn't complain in there was an increase in the amount of people who have sex responsibly. I'm not sure why abstinence needs to be thrown out the window though. This doesn't mean I want to lessen the amount or importance of safe sex. *end birth control discussion*

I still don't see what's wrong with my examples. They reflect, and accurately so, what's happening in the United States. It doesn't have to be that way. The resources to prevent all of it are readily available here, and yet it persists. My argument was to illustrate the ways in which sex can be harmful. I never claimed, for example, that ALL promiscuity spreads disease. But enough of it does. The act of sexual intercourse itself isn't to blame of course but rather the irresponsibility and ignorance of those involved.

I'm against causing harm on a mental level as well, but nobody asked me about that so I didn't include that in my answer. And while there may be things someone can do to upset a partner as much or worse than having sex with another, sex still has to be near the top of that list.

Soluzar explained many other flaws in my answer about how sex can be harmful. Most of it centers around the idea, "Sex can do that, but so can a billion other things". Don't wanna argue those points. Can't really argue against those points. But to me this highlights a shortcoming in the question itself in that it is way too simple.

Strippers and porn stars abused stats: My original source was a general practitioner and a comedian on a call in sex/drug advice radio show. Most of what I could find online was purely anecdotal and most of those seem to link sexual abuse with involvement in the sex industry. A few do deny these claims. A doctor named Mary Anne Layden said "Most strippers, as with other women who work in the sex industry, are adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse. Research indicates the number is between 60-80 percent". Couldn't find any info on that research though. Here's one tiny article...

Sexual Abuse as a Precursor to Prostitution and Victimization Among Adolescent and Adult Homeless Women -- SIMONS and WHITBECK 12 (3): 361 -- Journal of Family Issues

What disturbed during my (brief) research was the amount of violence and abuse towards strippers. Here's one such article describing that sentiment... Porn Myth 2 Extrapolating this evidence towards prostitution would be another argument against its legalization.

Far too many people who are sexually active are not practicing safe sex. I don't think everyone needs to adhere to my own personal standards. But i do think a great many people could and should be more responsible when they have sex. Wear a condom, get tested, be aware that other people's emotions are at stake. Having sex with a stranger can be and often is highly irresponsible whether money is involved or not.

Tired. Late. Work to do. Thanks for yelling at me.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Bradylama

I'm going to skip any pretense of debate and go straight to the heart of the matter. You are scum. Most likely also a troll. To adamantly refuse to support an issue in the face of logic just because you feel icky about it is the most shallow reaction to any policy decision on the planet. You are what is wrong with America.

I have yet to realize that the legalize-prostitution movement is backed by such an overwhelming logic based argument. This thread has yet to hit the proverbial homeroom in that regard. Medical, legal, safety, and economic reasons have all been given as arguments against prostitution. And still, logic is not the only reason to support a cause. Well, neither is feeling 'icky' (although that's not how I would describe my reaction). But I don't need to rely solely on logic to tell me that prostitution, or numerous other issues, is bad. Compassion plays a part as does morality. The compassion/morality angle probably leaves a bad taste in the mouth of some because of how is often misused. But logic has been misused by people as well.

Would anyone want their sister to be a prostitute? How about their child? Spouse? Parent? I'm seriously interested in what people think about this. Does prostitution bear an unfair negative stigma? Or is there something inherently undesirable about that profession?

Thanks. Gotta go back to dragging the rest of America down to my level of scum. It's tough work being a detriment to society.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Thanks for answering.

There's a lot of people like myself who would be utterly heartbroken if someone they loved got involved in prostitution. Of course everyone is entitled to exercise their free will, but at times it leads to bad decisions. And while some bad decisions are an inevitable part of life, it would be horribly sad if someone I care about turns to prostitution. For me it's a bad decision for anyone to make which is the major reason why I'm against the legalization of it.

Stupid question? I can see why it would seem like that. Is it safe to assume then that the overwhelming majority of people do not approve of prostitution if it involves a loved one? Grail (correct me if I'm wrong) appeared to indicate that prostitution carries an undeserved negative stigma. I'm still curious to see what more people in this forum think about that.

For me, I don't like prostitution. I will actively protect the ones I love from becoming involved. It doesn't make me the scum-of-the-earth just because I want to protect strangers too. The counter argument is "You have no right to tell me what to do". I have respect for the notion that government can't tell people what to do with their lives and their bodies. However, I disagree with that when it comes to issues such as these. It's a matter of (tacky part coming up) love.

I know it interferes with free will, but just because you want to do something doesn't necessarily qualify that you should be allowed to. I'm guessing that's the major point many people disagree with me on. I understand that point of view and even though I don't share it.

Legalizing prostitution will no doubt protect those involved. While true, to me that's a backwards argument for legalizing it. It's an illegal activity in 98% of the country. The vast majority of people find it to be an undesirable activity and a shortcoming to society. If that's the will of the people then efforts should be towards eliminating it altogether. Can such a feat be accomplished? With the way things are going, probably not. Doesn't mean we should give up entirely.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Grail

This is just it though Brady. You tend to forget that most conservatives are bible thumpers...most I've met. Most of them don't give a damn about the people on the streets right now. All they care about is perserving their way of life, what they believe is right and wrong, and they want to make damn sure that if anyone is doing what they consider 'wrong' that it be under the worst conditions possible so that they either become a born again, or die.

People like killerpineapple here, they don't care about people in general, all they care about are the people they 'fall in love with' or family members and how they can further protect their morals. They are like a subtle Westboro Baptist Church.

Most conservatives are bible-thumpers. Probably true. I would even go further and say that a great deal of bible-thumpers are misguided in their faith. But I would absolutely not put myself in that particular group.

I care a great deal for people in general. So do a lot of people who share my views. Maybe that makes us a minority, even in the Christian world. A sad state of affairs to be sure. But to say that I want people to suffer as much as possible when they do something I consider wrong is completely untrue. Please don't make assumptions about me, or anyone for that matter. Invariably you tend to be wrong. Sometimes, as in this case, completely wrong.

While a host of other reasons have come up, the most powerful argument I stand beside when countering legalized prostitution is the moral basis. Obviously I'm going to automatically stand at odds with those who don't feel that government shouldn't regulate morality. It is indeed a free country. Nevertheless, laws do exist that regulate morality. I'm clearly not in favor of abolishing all these laws. I'd imagine that would mean most of us are clearly unhappy with the legal system here. If enough of the country cherishes those sentiments then a change in the future will surely happen.

I can't really compare prostitution to gay marriage, anal sex, and um...colorful sexual habits. Totally separate issues that need to be handled as such, if they even need to be addressed in the first place. But you're right Deni, being merely 'uncomfortable' isn't enough of a reason to enact policy. The effect prostitution has on people (in my opinion) is damaging to them on a physical and mental level. This damage extends beyond the two people involved and begins to affect others. There is abuse associated with prostitution and after a little research I realized that legalizing it won't automatically solve those problems. I'm not blindly following my religious teachings...I've analyzed it, pondered it, and I honestly agree with it.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Hey guys,

Soluzar: Gee I guess it depends on what you consider morality issues. Prostitution certainly qualifies as one for me. Here's more, some allowed by law, other not so much: suicide, drug use, statutory rape, public indecency, abortion, slander/libel, FCC guidelines, animal testing, racism, fur industry, gay marriage. Of course there's hardly anything along the lines of "love thy neighbor" on the books which is what your maybe looking for. (Racial discrimination comes a little close I guess.) With stuff like that, yeah, there's not very much I can think of that's a law. Hrm. Tell me if I'm understanding you correctly or not about that.

Denicalis: Same issue as Soluzar. I'll concede your point if we're talking about "love thy neighbor" kind of stuff. I still think a lot of my list qualifies as morality issues though. :P There's a variety of reasons why I can't lump gay marriage, anal sex, and prostitution into the same category. Some of it has to do with my faith (warning: don't try to 2nd guess me on the gay marriage issue ) and some of it has to do with what I feel are the social implications...or whether there are any implications to begin with.

And I'm totally on board with you guys that safety issues with prostitution will go way down if it's legalized. I'm more interested however in protecting people from becoming involved in the first place. I wouldn't want the people I love to do it (most people feel that way) and I feel that even people I don't know should be protected from it. Some people want the right to be able to fudge up their life. I'd rather they didn't have those opportunities.

Grail: Sorry, I don't quite see what was so silly about my words. I'll play along though. I don't think high school should be outlawed. Instead we should legalize bullying and physical assault. That way the teachers and staff, who are stronger and wiser, can provide those same experiences in a safer environment with immediate access to medical treatment and counseling. The bad things still happen, but the damage is reduced to an acceptable level. Perhaps it will open up career opportunities for bullying specialists thereby helping with the economy as well. Bleh, what I just wrote is juvenile, irrelevant, and worst of all unfunny. But the highschool/prostitution comparison wasn't very well constructed either.

Bradylama: I have thought about forgiving criminals. Yes, I'm obligated to forgive people for their thoughts and deeds. That doesn't mean that if I was king I would let every murderer run free. The rest of the people need to be safe from those who would endanger them. So it is possible to forgive someone and still incarcerate them. I'm not sure what you mean about "stigmatizing their record" so I'll try to guess. Actually I'm too tired to guess. Brain hurts. I'm not sure if you're talking about labeling people or processing someone as a felon which can hurt their opportunities in the future. Let me know which, or if it's something else.

Good night!

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Grail

I certainly don't want MY CHILDREN to experience this kind of travesty such as bullying. So denying them the experience of high school, and what it can do for them, I am in fact doing my job as a lovely member of society by closing my eyes, ignoring the facts, and going nyah nyah nyah.

Sorry Grail, I'm not understanding that last sentence. But that may be because I didn't really understand what it was I wrote about highschool earlier. About your other thoughts though...

I have two fundamental problems with the highscool/prostitution comparison. First, one is required (with few alternative options) and the other is a career choice of sorts. Second, the bad parts of high school are caused by its participants outside the original intent of instruction while the bad parts of prostitution (to me) is the act itself.

Three corrections I need to make from your post Grail
1) I AGREE with you guys that legalized prostitution will make the industry safer but I still feel it should be outlawed for reasons I've stated many times. I'm not expecting you to agree with those reasons, just understand that's how myself and millions of other people think.
2) I've stated twice that I care for both people I know and people I don't. So I'll say it again...I care about and want to help people I don't even know.
3) I also never used the phrase "icky", but at least that inference makes a little bit of sense. But the way you're kind of quoting me on it really makes some assumptions about my opinions that just aren't true.

To those I've annoyed: I apologize to anyone whom I've flat out said "you're wrong" to. Not cool of me. I'm trying mainly to explain my position. In this case it seems fairly important since most of us think prostitution is legal and yet it remains illegal in most of the U.S. My unique stance lets me explain how the 'other side' thinks. I have no doubts that it comes off as trolling, and to some degree it fits the definition perfectly, although I'm not intentionally trying offend anyone.

I know most of you guys think I'm scum. I guess I'm 'okay' with that. Obviously i don't agree. Or at least not for my thoughts on this particular issue.

Soluzar: I realize the danger of limiting the rights of an individual and yet in certain situations (like prostitution) I feel the safety and comfort of the many outweigh the rights of the few. A huge point of disagreement, I know.

I kinda agree with how the protection of minors seems to be more basic and fundamental than moral issues. I can't really explain it but those types of laws just seem "right". There's some gray area, like how young is too young and so forth, but most of those laws seem right on without any controversy that accompanies moral issues.

Perhaps one day I will lose some rights I cherish to a political force that justifies those laws with the morality argument. I'm obligated by my faith to endure any laws that don't interfere with my salvation. But I'd be lying if I said that I wouldn't be disappointed to lose my right to vote, or my right to marry who I want, or any number of rights. Still, my thoughts on prostitution wouldn't change.

Denicalis: You totally put much more thought into this than I have. I certainly don't disagree with you on every issue either. I'm just gonna pick a few to respond to, and briefly so, since it is gets away from the main topic.

Drug use: This is a complicated one for me. Not every drug is equal. I think alcohol and cigarettes are much more dangerous to users and to society than many illegal drugs. This issue does bear some strong similarities to the prostitution issue, but drugs seem more complicated to me.

Abortion: This is indeed a sad issue. I think there are times when it is utterly inappropriate. But I can't see any way to legislate it perfectly. It is an incredibly complicated issue. Here's a quote from an alien impersonating Bob Dole on The Simpsons as he tries to make all the voters happy, "Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others!"

The FCC: Yeah, it's a joke. Maybe it will get better when all TV media goes digital and parental guide settings are mandatory on television receivers. I still don't want porn on channel 5 and Sesame Street on channel 4.

Racism: You can't kick someone out of a restaurant or cab because of ethnicity. Employers can't discriminate who they hire based on race. To me this is an example of morality laws being useful to everyone (except racists i suppose). But I gather some of us might not categorize this as a morality thing.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Grail

As for my whole 'highschool/prostitution' deal. Think of it this way: Think of the teachers as prostitutes, and then think of all the men going to their service as students or whatnot.

Ah, that does make more sense. But I still have to disagree with your main point for the two problems I mentioned before regarding the comparison itself and my general thoughts on the issue.

Originally Posted by Grail

students getting bullied in high school, women finding out that their husbands cheated on them with a prostitute blah blah blah...either way, both are damaging in their own rights, but in the end who really ends up getting hurt the most? You can't tell me a straight answer like that.

You're right, I can't give a straight answer. I'm not sure it's possible. I don't think high school and prostitution should be compared in the first place. So forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you and write an answer that misses the point. Here goes...

At first glance I don't think you can say with 100% accuracy that school violence is more or less hurtful than violence in the sex industry. But the sex industry isn't a required part of American culture. The crimes and abuse that happen to prostitutes and erotic dancers signify consequences of an unnecessary part of life. Thus it should follow that such consequences could be avoided entirely (only it doesn't follow because in the case of prostitution people continue to do it illegally, which I really wish they wouldn't).

If instead you compared prostitution to something like being a late night liquor store clerk, it might make more sense. Both are professions where the clients come voluntarily. Both are linked to violence against the seller. Both allow patrons to do indecent things (fornication vs. alcohol, cigarettes, and twinkies). But I would still argue that prostitution is worse because it offers nothing of redeeming value to society as a whole and in my opinion actually worsens it. A liquor store at least provides food, water, and other amenities.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

I feel confident that my safety is being ensured against the threat of Call Girls.

Well is was referring to murder at the time. But I'm okay with imprisoning a prostitute in places where it is illegal. Doing so prevents people from being able to solicit one.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

I'm still wondering how killerpineapple thinks that putting people into prison and/or stigmatizing their record is forgiving them for their transgressions.

Okay, I think I already answered the prison part of the question. As for labeling someone...that also doesn't get in the way of my ability to forgive someone. In places where prostitution is illegal it's just a matter of disclosure. But as I said, I need to be forgiving, and when encountering such people I absolutely must not judge them by their criminal record alone and be open minded as they explain it to me. I've learned that EVERYTHING in life is more complicated than it seems initially.

The situation changes in places where prostitution is legal. If I were to meet a prostitute there I still need to be forgiving and open minded. When it comes to public issues I could not and should not limit their opportunities in accordance with the law of the land. For private issues it would be up to me to decide. Do I want this person as a babysitter? Probably not. Although I still forgive them for what I believe to be a sin, I can still choose not to let a person like that into my house if I have good reason to do so. In this case I don't want a person who approves of that lifestyle being an influence on my family. What if this person is teacher for my child during the day and a prostitute at night? If I don't want to allow that (and I can't say for certainty that I won't) then I'm the one who must bear the burden of moving my child to a different school. It would be absolutely unfair of me to demand that teacher be fired. It would also be unfair of me to demand that my child be moved to a different teacher in the same school or even to vocalize my discomfort to the community and smear the teacher's name. The same courtesy should be extended to convicted prostitutes who served their time and now abide by the law.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Denicalis

Look, what this is going to come down to is that KP believes his morals are more important than freedom of choice. And no amount of arguing is going to change that. He thinks some archaic, non-existent utopia of judeo-christian morality is the key. I say its suffocating and strangles the life out of a man. It's never going to get worked out, though. Because you can't convince him with logic, and he can't convince us with belief.

Although I'd say it a little differently, in general I'd have to say...

yup.

And to Bradylama: Well you can't blame me because prostitutes don't behave the way I want them to and also because the justice system doesn't behave the way I want them to either. I wish both sides abided wholesomely. Hypocrite just isn't what I am. Shortsighted? Perhaps. Just longing for a better world. Sorry about the hypothetical, someone else had brought it up earlier and I was just returning to it.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Well I'm used to being misinterpreted and over analyzed at this point. No biggie.

FELIPE NO

Divest, you're killing your own thread. I really don't want to respond to a tangent on a tangent but if I must: you've completely misunderstood me. When I say use the word 'many' I don't mean 'any'. I'm not sure why, or how, you thought that. I got a sneak peak of one of your posts before you edited and I know you're aware of this to some degree. I am not going to elaborate any more than that in this topic.

I'd like to get back to arguing with people who use their brains on the prostitution query if I could. The reason I brought up drugs was because I thought there were some interesting parallels to the prostitution. We really shouldn't be focusing on the drug issue itself though. At least not here.

It's been brought up that many (not any) of you disagree with me on what is a moral issue and what is just an issue. Hopefully by now we've gotten to a point where we at least understand how the millions of people like myself think. I'm not demanding that any (not many) of you be forced to agree with me. It's a controversial issue in the real world and it shouldn't surprise anyone that it became controversial here as well, if only because of myself.

I'm sure it's frustrating that what appears so basic and logical is not getting through to someone who writes well enough that he should know better. (On second thought, maybe me no write so well either) But I don't share most of your morals, and I'm entitled to my opinion, and even the logic I use with regards to serving the public is radically different. I'm enjoying the debate a lot and I appreciate the opposing point of view. As i said earlier, i agree with Denicalis that there's no chance I can convince you to see it my way, and I'm not going to change either.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Sorry Divest, good question, but not here. You can check out the RSA's findings in the Commision on Illegal Drugs if you wish.

Grail: To me the good that would result from legalized prostitution doesn't nearly match the good if it were abolished altogether and I'm talking about exterminating it even in its illegal form. I'm not ignoring the facts. I'm aware of them and still have arrived at my conclusion. Why do so many people automatically dismiss statistics that show that there is a drastic increase in the amount of abuse and violence against American workers in the sex industry? And that includes when it is legal. Even though I know it's highly unlikely that prostitution can be eradicated completely in places where it is illegal I'm unwillingly to give up on that cause. Because if it could be stopped entirely it would benefit society better than if were simply legalized and given government support. Disagree with me if you wish, but that is my reasoning.

If I hadn't mentioned it before, I would be heartbroken if my child became a prostitute. But that's not enough to magically make me want to alter the system so that's she protected from doing something that I told her not to do and that the law told her not to do too. In the end I am more concerned for her soul than her physical well being which is why I would prefer her to grow up in an environment that more closely shares my views.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Maybe the war on prostitution is doomed. Another similarity to the drug issue. But you're asking me to condone something that I firmly believe is wrong. I can't do that no matter how bad we're losing.

Hey, I agree with you about the tendency of sheltering to backfire. It's important for people, even those as conservative as me, to be knowledgeable about the world and be able to handle exposure to it's less than savory parts. It's better to be able to deal with and resist temptation than to hide from it all your life.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Garret

I may be taking this out of context... but you are basically just confirming that you want her to follow YOUR views of what is right and wrong, and refuse to help your daughter if she were to ever develop her own.

Nope, that's not it at all. I would always be available to help anyone I care about. It's important to not stop loving someone just because they're going down the wrong path. I disagree with conservatives who disown their children because they're gay or what have you. I try to learn from the parable of the prodigal son.

Originally Posted by Garret

The biggest problem here , and the reason why you will never change your mind (which very few people ever do ) is you are being selfish. You don't care how making prostitution legal would help others, or how many deaths/rapes it would prevent. You will defend where you stand to the very last, even if it would mean the death of 500 innocent people this year alone, simply because you think it is 'icky', and because your belief doesn't allow it.

I'm repeating myself yet again but I am not going to condone something that I know is wrong. If we can eradicate it completely in its legal and illegal forms then it would help more people than simply legalizing it everywhere. Why does it make me such a bad person to strive for the best? Studies have shown that people in the legal sex industry (including erotic dancers) are statistically much more likely to be the victim of abuse or sexual crimes because of their job. I've only perused studies done in America, but I still urge others to do so as well. Legalizing prostitution won't make that problem of violence and abuse toward sex workers go away because it already exists where such professions are allowed. The only way to make those sort of crimes disappear is to outlaw the profession entirely and weed out those who do it illegally.

Originally Posted by Garret

That would be like Atheist saying "hey, religion and church are against my morals and I do not agree with them, therefore they should not be allowed even though on a logical level I have no problem with it and may help others and the community.". So then all of a sudden, your religion is outlawed, and illegal. How would you feel about that? To all of a sudden not have the freedom to follow your religion, all simply because the idea was 'icky' in someone's mind.

Interesting point. (Can we stop with the "icky" already though?) The anti-prostitution support does not come solely from the religious populace. A more than significant amount of people oppose prostitution on moral beliefs not tied to any religion. There are many states where the majority of voters are liberal and yet prostitution is still only legal in one of them. There are places in the world where people are not allowed to practice religion by law. Of course it would be a drag for me, but I'd still continue to worship. It's unlikely that an officer of the law would feel compelled to arrest me since the way I worship has a negligible effect on my community and does not have any sort of negative impact. Or maybe I would get arrested. It happens in China even today. It's happened many places within the last 100 years. It happened to the apostles. I would feel burdened, but not so much that I would regret my faith.

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Lets just replace a word now

"hey, legal prostitution and sex are against my morals and I do not agree with them, therefore they should not be allowed even though on a logical level I have no problem with it and may help others and the community."

Wow, by just changing two subject words, I changed it from something that is against you (making church and religion illegal), into a sentence that is almost exactly what you are stating (making prostitution illegal). I bet the original sentence sounded pretty stupid to you and any other religious people, yet that is almost exactly what you are saying to us.

I have problems with both sentences actually. And the two word switcheroo isn't all that convincing an argument either. I can turn something from normal to silly with only one word change. Behold my awesomeness... "Candy tastes good." vs. "Poop tastes good."

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What if your daughter got raped by some drunken guy, because he had an itch in his pants and could not pick up a girl, so he see's your daughter walking home from a friends place near a dark alley, and in his drunken mind, decides to have fun with her. Had prostitution been legal, he could have paid some woman for the fun and been done. She would have gone home safe, your daughter would have gone home safe, and Uncle Sam would have an extra $10 in his wallet. Sure, it probably won't be the exact case with your daughter, but I bet that scenario has happened more than once, resulting in the rape of some innocent girl somewhere in the world, and many more like it.

Rape is a predatory crime. You cannot make the assumption that all rapists, or even a majority of them, would use prostitutes as an outlet for their sexual desires. Nevada is the 35th largest state and has the 33rd most rapes. Shouldn't Nevada exhibit less rapes per capita instead of slightly more?

Originally Posted by Acacia

You seem intelligent if not stubbornly religious (nothing personal), so I'm just going to assume that you'll say "no, it's no possible." So then, rather than making the act illegal, wouldn't it be better to legalize it? (the 'lesser of two evils' so to speak?) A lot of things would be better; this isn't some sort of hypothesis based on what-ifs, we've already seen the positive effects of legalizing prostitution in many other countries, right?

I'd prefer people wouldn't make assumptions, but you actually got me right. No, I don't think society will ever completely get rid of prostitution, even if it tries to. At the same time I don't think that should have the most bearing on what we decide to legalize. How could you apply that argument to murder, stealing, or other crimes? It's a never ending battle, but that's exactly how it is for most crimes. By focusing on certain crimes we can make a positive impact even if we don't squelch it out completely. I applaud those successes. We have one state from which to draw information about the benefits of prostitution and at this point it isn't a slam dunk so to speak.

Originally Posted by Acacia

Why is there such a negative feeling with sex/sex before marriage? I'm not sexually active person myself, but I honestly don't see what the big deal is; why would providing sex for cash (and health care and tax cuts!) worse than something like modeling? I understand that it's a precious and sacred thing to many, but not everyone feels like that, right? I mean, what gives you the right to preach and control if you can't back-up your ideas with facts and logic and instead fall back to your gut instinct, what 'you feel is right'?

From the Christian standpoint there shouldn't be a negative sentiment towards sex. Christians who feel that way or spread that message are ones that don't understand their faith. To a Christian, sex is supposed to be a beautiful thing meant to be shared by husband and wife. My feelings on premarital sex are purely guided by my faith. I don't expect or demand that others live by my standards in that regard. My feelings on prostitution however are guided by both my faith and my instinctual human understanding. Here's some facts: An overwhelming amount of people would be unhappy if a loved one became involved in prostitution. This is a basic human reaction with or without religious guidance. Logically we all want the best for ourselves and the people we know and love. Prostitution is never part of that equation. Is that enough to create a law? Well, we aren't supposed to interfere with free will unless we feel it is harmful to people. Myself and others feel that harm indeed occurs thus we can set up laws to prevent it. Another group sees no harm being done and feels prostitution should be protected by law.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Wait a sec? We all know prostitution is undesirable, I don't want to let people do it, and that makes me selfish? I'd be a hypocrite if I condoned an action that I knew was wrong. And the politicians and voters who decided to outlaw prostitution in 49 states didn't do so ONLY because the act hurts the feelings of people not even involved.

On the other hand, I'm totally okay with you thinking my stance on prostitution is idiotic if you also believe that all laws that prevent people from doing things that don't directly hurt others are idiotic. I guess that would include stuff like drug abuse and suicide. Your answer won't change my beliefs, but there'd be no point arguing if you said yes.

I'm not sure I trust your instinct that most people who pay strangers for sex are upstanding citizens who have extreme difficultly getting into a loving relationship with a woman. I'd actually like to learn more if you can provide some studies or statistics...but it wouldn't sway my opinion. Who is saying that having sex is a right? It's a basic human urge, like the desire to be accepted and loved, the desire to become wealthy, etc. Saying that people are entitled to have sex one way or the other doesn't sound like judgement based on factual evidence or logic. We aren't talking about breathing and eating.

Originally Posted by Grail

That's what I hate most about people who are religious and have faith. No matter how nice they come off, they ALWAYS fucking make themselves look to be better than everyone else in the world.

I'm pretty religious and have a good amount of faith...but it really doesn't seem like I'm coming off as a nice guy in this topic. Perhaps in other circles people perceive me as a nice guy, but that's their perception. I'm not trying to make myself look great compared to other people. Real Christians are a humble sort of folk. Don't let the fake ones ruin it for the rest of us.

One last question...Twinkle toes?

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The large majority of us are saying prostitution is okay. But most of us have also said that ideally they wouldn't want it their loved ones to be involved. To me this indicates that there is something wrong with it. This isn't the major point to of contention but rather whether or not people have the right to do whatever they want to themselves.

I haven't said that everything I think is wrong is wrong for everyone. I've even pointed instances where I don't expect people to live by my standards of right and wrong.

The sad story of someone who can't get sex for free doesn't change my view point. Since it doesn't affect my opinion then stats and studies about that specific situation will do nothing other than to satisfy my curiosity. Triple quoting aside, I'm not sure Denicalis, if you were aware that I wasn't referring to statistics in general. It would be nice if someone acknowledged the stats I mentioned regarding violence within the legal sex industry or rapes per capita in Nevada. But if not, no biggie.

I don't see how I'm "ruining it for them". You guys disagree with me. Fine. I'm not attacking anyone. I'm not misrepresenting my faith or the people who share my political views. My viewpoint stands at extreme odds to most of yours but I'm not trying to convince or convert anyone. I just explain where people like myself are coming from. It's totally fine to reject my stance. I'd prefer not to be insulted, named called, or told to F myself...but if that's what you want to do then by all means go for it. It's okay with me.

There seems to be a lot of discontent toward lawmakers past and present. While I share that sentiment from time to time I can't help but acknowledge that most of these people understand politics and law much more than me. It's possible that most or all of you are smarter than I and perhaps as smart or smarter than the lawmakers in question. Should that be the case then there would be an abundance of capable people in society sharing your viewpoint. In a matter of years we will see changes made to the law that reflects the overwhelming sentiments expressed in this thread. In any case it's pointless to yell at me for laws whose creation I had nothing to do with.

Many well thought arguments have been made here, but this is still just a forum for people who like video game music. Several of you claim that current laws are stupid and created by stupid people, but this does little to affect my opinion. Why should I value the opinions of people here more than those who earned there way into a legislative position? I don't agree with every law on the books but that doesn't cause me to think someone is an idiot for not sharing my opinion. There just isn't an infallible argument to inform the world that prostitution should and must be legal. Hence all the controversy. Everyone is entitled to think people like me are idiots, but that doesn't it make it true.

Sex is a right? Not really, but I understand what you're getting at Grail. I gather you are very passionate about sex to compare it to eating and breathing. While sex certainly is intensely enjoyable, I can't put it on the same level as energy consumption and oxygen respiration in terms of necessity.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I'm not going to dismiss that statistics in Nevada so easily. Because of it's location it has greater implications for U.S. policy. But then again, I already said it's no biggie if nobody here pays attention to me.

I've stipulated that I can't assume anybody disagreeing with me is less intelligent than I. They could just as well be smarter than me or even smart enough to one day be in a position to affect law. It would be pretty cool to get the insight of a practicing lawyer especially if they specialize in this particular subject.

Originally Posted by Killerpineapple

there would be an abundance of capable people in society sharing your viewpoint. In a matter of years we will see changes made to the law that reflects the overwhelming sentiments expressed in this thread.

Originally Posted by Denicalis

that's the purpose of an informed populace. To question their leaders. If they act in a way unbecoming to our beliefs of what a nation should be, we oust them, have them replaced. The leaders fear the people, not vice versa. The joy of democracy.

I feel like you're saying the same thing I did.

Originally Posted by Denicalis

Some laws are stupid. Up until quite recently a woman couldn't vote, a black man couldn't go to school white men. Should we not have overturned those? Were those just and righteous laws, sir? The men who made those laws were the same men who made laws about prostitution and gay marriage. So again, sir, go fuck your half-witted arguments.

Just because you identify some stupid laws of the past doesn't automatically qualify you to pass judgement on current ones. You cannot say conclusively that the politicians instrumental in banning segregation and passing women's suffrage would likewise embrace gay marriage, prostitution, and snorting cocaine amongst other things. I suppose they could have but just decided it wasn't plausible or worth the effort, but I'm not going to assume that either. I also find it hard to believe that the men who prevented women from voting had their hand in all the major laws you disagree with today. Some evidence of such would be appreciated. Or perhaps you are generalizing "types of men" which isn't convincing either because stereotyping is not a legitimate argument.

Arguments that indicate guilt by association are fundamentally flawed as well. You can't say "Old white guy (or ones like him) prevented women from voting. Same guy is preventing prostitution. Therefore prostitution should be legal." You could use that method of thinking to discredit any law, good or bad.

I'm sure I don't present the best arguments, but that doesn't mean I have to accept other bad ones. Either way, thanks for calling me 'sir'.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I'm not sure what it was that was proven wrong that forced me to change my argument.

I do wish you would elaborate on your problems with my argument about lawmakers knowing the issues better than society. When women weren't allowed to vote it was an incorrect decision but at the time it echoed the prevailing sentiments of the so called free society. Times change, people change, and oddly enough politicians change too. If there weren't any lawmakers who agreed with the bulk of society then it stands to reason that no laws would ever change. I'm not sure why you think society knows more than your typical lawmaker. I enjoy the system of electing representative officials we trust to study the issues and vote on our behalf in order to save us time. Elected officials are the ones who got rid of segregation, not a popular vote by all members of society.

But then again I'm not sure why you brought this up at all since it doesn't directly support your ideals about laws within a free society. I admire your tenacity and I agree with your concept of choosing your own path. But I disagree greatly on what constitutes damage to others.

Perhaps another point of disagreement... Are laws that forbid racial or sexual discrimination moral in nature?

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Soluzar

No. They are based on rights. There's no room to disagree here, if you disagree you're wrong.

I would say that racial discrimination is a moral issue but it turns out that if I do I'm wrong. Some people, lots of them in fact, don't want the government limiting their rights to choose who they can hire, or let in a restaurant, or admit into a school.

How ya doing, buddy?

Thanks for explaining your position more clearly Soluzar. I still disagree with you, I think. Brain hurting. 3..2..1...Begin babbling rant:

In nature there are no laws. That is real freedom. It's a true paradox that laws are required to ensure freedom for us humans. There's something innate within a person that let's us know what is right on wrong. With some fundamental issues there is no disagreement. We tend not to even think of those basic concepts of right and wrong as morals. Well, except people like me. I still tend to equate knowing right from wrong with morals. Maybe I'm totally butchering the definition, in which case I'm making it painfully difficult for anyone to understand my already whacked-out position. D'oh!

I like the term 'transient morality'. I can comfortably agree that those types of viewpoints should be left out of the lawmaking process. But in the case of prostitution, I'm bound to see transient morality differently than others. Controversy continues. Whee.

My thanks to many of you. Heh, even the ones who think I'm couldn't possibly be referring to you. Vacation beckons. Brain already shutting down. Don't think I'll be able to fully understand Soluzar and Packrats' thoughts until I get back, but this topic, especially this most recent page, was certainly thought provoking and enjoyable to read.

From this unintentional troll to all of you: Happy new year. Hope to see this thread still kicking in 2008.

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