Infinite Crisis Discussion

Actually, as the resident DC apologist here, I feel as if I need to say something about Infinite Crisis. The last time DC did something like this, it was called Crisis on Infinite Earths. The point of the huge crossovers are not only/really to sell more issues. The idea of it is to actually make the DC universe sleeker and less flabby and thus, less retconning to do. And to be honest, in terms of continuity, it really isn't a nightmare, things have definitely been blown way out of proportion. (Acro-nym, as far as I'm concerned, you're a troll account. Do come up with some proof of it having continuity problems instead of complaining in every comics thread) As Zerg said, if you have a working knowledge of the DC universe, Infinite Crisis makes an interesting read. Most fans complained about Crisis on Infinite Earths as well, but it was mainly written for the DC fans who didn't want to see such a big universe. As for something that is worse than Infinite Crisis, House of M, anyone?

Civil War, looks to be really interesting. Not so much Captain America vs Tony Stark, but rather the Hero vs Hero concept, which hasn't been explored enough.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Zergrinch

While I'm the second DC apologist around these parts, I'm afraid I must slightly disagree with Happy a bit. Crisis on Infinite Earths WAS an attempt by DC comics to clean house on its 50th anniversary. Compromises were made thereafter that rendered some continuity errors. There was another Universe-spanning cross-over which attempted, but not very successfully, to do the same. Zero-Hour wasn't quite as tight as Infinite Crisis.

Actually, Zero-Hour slipped my mind. But Crisis on Infinite Earths was created to merge everything into one dimension whereas Zero Hour was created to merge all timelines into one. Wikipedia explains it better than I do:

Zero Hour was intended by DC as a belated follow-up to their landmark limited series Crisis on Infinite Earths, and was indeed subtitled "(A) Crisis in Time". It promised to do for the inconsistent future timelines of the DC Universe what Crisis had done for its parallel worlds: unify them into a new one.

I honestly think that Infinite Crisis isn't really around this time to clean up continuity or timelines or dimensions, but rather it really is some sort of reset on the DC universe (This time).

p.s. Yes, I got it wrong. CoIE wasn't the last time "DC did something like this". Strangely enough, I never really though of Zero Hour as a huge event, though.

oke:

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Zergrinch

1. I'm not really sure what you want. When supervillains kill people, do you want a soliloquy detailing the substantive reasons why they're snuffing the protagonists' lights out?

2. Infiinite Crisis implies that Alex Luthor is so brilliant, that he concealed Superboy Prime's activities from Earth-2 Superman. Kal-L was then rather absorbed in his dying spouse. Your opposition to said reality barriers seems rather paradoxical to your praise for the original crisis, since that miniseries detailed Alex Luthor's establishment of said barriers in the first place!

3. I concede this point, that the Bludhaven drop was one big mess, with several accounts between the Infinite Crisis, Nightwing, Superman, and Batman titles. However, it seems rather trivial to me - in the greater scheme of things, I don't really care what Nightwing and Batman did, or where they were, in the 24-hour period after the drop.

4. Again, a reference to the original Crisis, as the Anti-Monitor was killed in the last part of the series. In Infinite Crisis, it was revealed that after punching through the barrier, Superboy retrieved the anti-Monitor's corpse (ostensibly from the anti-matter Universe of Qward) - Happy, feel free to correct me.

5. How do you know that the window shouldn't be there? Has anyone been hit by a Phantom Zone arrow before, prior to this event? Does this completely violate the physics of the Phantom Zone? (I think not.) Does it really matter? Infinite Crisis sucks just cuz a phantom zone window appeared when it shouldn't?

1) Agreed.

2) Agreed. In Infinite Crisis #2, Kal-L (Superman, Earth-Two) narrates that Alexander Luthor created a haven of sorts. A "place" for them to exist beyond that dimension. These characters were all set to die (implied) during the end of CoIE. So to put it plainly, they were not supposed to exist anywhere in this dimension but in this "place". As things gradually become worse on Earth in this period, this "place" started to warp. (Although it is implied that this "place" started to warp because Lois was dying. Hence the cracks leading out from her bed) To survive, they used Superman's preoccupation with Lois' health as an opportunity for Superboy to punch a hole in the wall at a certain point to retrieve the corpse of the anti-monitor. Only later on as Lois' condition got worse did they actually try to breach the wall to access Earth-One. It was Superman-Two who finally made the difference and cracked open the wall. (This is all told in Infinite Crisis #1)

3) The printed matter were accounts of what was happening. It therefore could have been told in the past or the present tense. Though I do say that this was kind of a mix-up.

4) Agreed/You're right.

5) Agreed/You're right.

Actually, only Question number 3 is truly about continuity. The rest are plot holes which have already been answered by us.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Acro-nym

Both of you seem to neglect the fact that there were two parts to that second concern. In any case, I'm going to dispute some more.

1) I don't want a freakin monologue. I just want someone to explain to me why the villains suddenly decide "we're going to kill people." In the months that this group has existed they have never demonstrated any interest in killing off heroes, not have they acted in a violent manner. In fact, when Dr. Psycho tried to make Black Adam fight Superman, Adam got pissed. Is it that they got worse for some unexplained reason, or that Alexander wanted the other Freedom Fighters dead for some unexplained reason? Also, Alexander wouldn't tell them about his plan to make a new Earth. If he did, they'd probably all turn on him, seeing as how some of them could get deleted in the process. So, he had to be giving them some reason to gather the people he needed for his machine, or at least lie about what the machine will inevitably do.

2) Um, actually, Alexander Luthor and Superboy traveled to the current Earth either more than one time or spent a long time during that first trip. Alexander Luthor cloaked Brother Eye and gave Checkmate access to it. He also founded and managed the Society. Superboy was able to move Rann to cause the war. Superboy grabbed Martian Manhunter and destroyed the JLA watchtower.

3) We're in agreement, I'll move on.

4) At the end of COIE, the Anti-Monitor was destroyed utterly and thoroughly. He was damaged to much as to become a sort of energy skeletal structure, then was thrust into a star. When he tried to make one last assault, Kal-L forced him back into said star, which proceeded to implode with the Anti-Monitor still in it. Hence, there was no body for them to go retrieve.

5) Look. Any teleportation item I've seen sends people away with no window displaying where they went. It just sends, no matter where the target is going. As to why the Phantom Zone is out of whack here, in the past, people sent into this space are paralyzed, given a ghostly state in which they cannot affect anything outside of the Phantom Zone. Yet, Superboy is able to punch his way through. The Phantom Zone acting differently from the way it has is a continuity problem.

1) Well, Alexander Luthor wanted The Ray from the Freedom Fighters. As to why they killed the Freedom Fighters, I would have to say that they're villains aren't they? Besides, your point about Black Adam is moot. Black Adam used to be a hero and even now still has his own code of conduct and is full to the brim of bullshit like honour and whatnot. He was pissed with Dr. Psycho for causing the death of innocent people in the area. In this sense, heroes aren't as vulnerable as normal non-powered people. The people in the society seem to trust the leadership alot, moreso "Lex Luthor" because he's the best of them all. He has a reputation like Batman. Although he doesn't have powers, nobody messes with Lex Luthor.

2) I don't see why Alexander couldn't have done everything in one fell swoop seeing as to how there isn't an exact timeline to when they finally broke down all the walls to Earth-One. You're assuming months, but they could have held back telling Kal-L about making contact with Earth's heroes until all the pieces were in place (A supposition, but a good one) after breaking down the walls. They basically fooled Kal-L into thinking that bringing back Earth-Two would save Lois and they put it in such a way that it makes it seem like all of them agreed on the idea instead of saying that it was Alexander Luthor all the way.

4) You're assuming it blew up the remains of the Anti-Monitor.

5) Actually you're talking about the Phantom Zone ray gun that Superman keeps in his Fortress of Solitude. Nobody I know in the DC Universe has ever fired a Phantom Zone arrow. Who knows how it might actually work, right? But apparently it's violating all laws of Phantom Zone physics (Which doesn't exist in the Phantom Zone) that windows should start appearing and Superboy smashing his way out.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Acro-nym

1) I understand that they're villains. Some of the ones in that crowd are lethally-inclined (Sinestro and Cheetah come to mind). However, Deathstroke rarely shows any sign of actually wanting to kill anybody. Yet, within the story, he kills two people. Bizarro shouldn't have even be able kill the Human Bomb in such a manner, but that's a different discussion. The Freedom Fighters didn't need to die. Did anyone need to die to bring in Nightshade? Or Martian Manhunter? No. Those two were captured by themselves. Johns could have just as easily written a villain capturing the Ray while he was alone. The fact that the team's death is meaningless adds fuel to this thought.

2) Seeing as how the events leading up to IC have been going on for the past few months, I'd say that there is some time interval between them, say, giving Brother Eye to Checkmate and capturing Martian Manhunter.

4) I'm not assuming anything. Read the last issue of COIE. The Anti-Monitor was in a freakin' energy form when he was destroyed. There's no body to find.

5) Yes, the operation of the Phatom Zone is out of whack here. Yes, there's never been an arrow for this before. It still doesn't make sense. Why would Superman make an arrow (I could probably stop the question here...) that keeps a window open for him to view the prisoner? He could easily check on whoever through other means. The only possible reason would be that Superman is really sadistic and gets pleasure out of watching people suffer, which I know isn't false. The reason this is relevant is that if it worked the right way, instead of Johns' way, the whole thing with the Flashes wouldn't have happened.

1) Actually, I don't see anything wrong with this. -_- This could be a way of clearing up some of the chaff in the DC Universe. Why kill? Why not.

2) Haha, you're assuming the months between the publishing of Countdown to Infinite Crisis and Infinite Crisis are also months in the DC Universe? Yes, even if it was a couple of months, they could have hidden all this from Superman-Two. The "place" could have been miles wide or miles deep, who the hell knows? Again, I don't see the problem here.

4) Yes, I remember. the Anti-Monitor absorbed some of the worlds in the Anti-Matter universe to increase his power. Yes, the comics depicted that he had become an energy being, but again you're assuming that he doesn't still have a skeleton?

5) I'm going to pass on this one. =/ I think it's been dealt with.

Like I said, out of all these questions, only question 3 was about continuity (And even that negligible). The rest of all these are supposed loop-holes in the plot. If all this bothers you, go check out House of M.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Mmm, last issue of Infinite Crisis is out. Anybody willing to discuss it?

Spoiler:

Most importantly, (I feel) Batman's history has been retconned again. Perhaps that would explain his cheerfulness OYL. Superboy is still alive, I thought he would die at the end of Infinite Crisis. Anybody have feelings about that? Not a bad ending to the series, really.

How ya doing, buddy?