Religion: What it means to you

As a Christian I take the book I read and treat it like a martial arts discipline.
I've debated atheists, muslims and others. I have tackled the issues of life and continue to wrestle with my problems and the problems of my friends & family with the zeal of a man at war.

My relationship with my God is a way of life that is handed down from generations who gave me the gifts of their experience to carry on the fight for virtuous living that reveals the hope for eternal life.

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Originally Posted by FallDragon

Agreed. Theology is finally being recognized as what it's comparable to; the study of faeries, the study of astrology, etc. All are fields which make claims on the observable world yet cannot be proven through the observable world. This is why their claims on reality will forever remain imaginary, and thus unimportant.

I disagree. From my martial arts perspective, theological study can be proven if you take the time to live out the concepts. Take for example the lives of great religious champions. My favorite ones are Mother Teresa & Martin Luther King Jr. A careful study of their lives and written documents would reveal evidence that the power of the unseen was very apparent to them despite the "reality" of their circumstances.

I also hear some say that religion is a crutch. I also disagree with that statement as well. As human beings we have a natural tendency to form disciplines in every aspect of life. Sports, war, business ect. Religion is no different. Religion is a plan that seeks to aid the believer in finding solutions to moral & spiritual problems. I find it a statement based on lack of experience when a person says religion is a crutch because they don't even have a tried & tested plan to approach a solution to problems, only the assumption that all will turn out well.
Imagine saying to a football team that their playbook is their crutch or telling a government that their laws are their crutch.

One way I found out that I have a personal relationship with God is by giving money to the church & charity. Not just a little either I mean 10% of my income. I'm not rich & my budget says I am in the red every month but for nearly 5 years of living this way I found out that the money does make it to the needed places on time. I haven't gone hungry and all of my other needs are met as well. Faith for me is putting my life on the line and letting my God take me through.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by FallDragon

As should be obvious, people doing great things in the name of any given cause doesn't make the truths of that cause any more real or true. There were Nazis that always tried to help Jews escape from death camps; does this then prove that the foundation of Nazism is good and moral?

In this case those "Nazis" were not living out the dictates of the belief system that was still being fed to them at that time by their leaders. Please use a different example.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

The South was on the winning side of the scripture battle concerning whether Slave ownership was OK with God. Of course it was OK! Both the OT and NT talk about it like a fact of life. So why the hell was the north on the correct moral ground, and the south not? Because of secular progressive morality. Or basically, giving up blind faith in scripture and following a humanitarian instinct.

The south was winning the battle because of the money wrapped up in the decision making.
And God was not ok with slavery, hence the reason for this issue to divide believers at that time. True slavery was a fact of life in bible times but Jesus was about setting people free from bondage not making excuses for it.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

There are moral atheists and agnostics. This completely destroys your argument that we need religion for moral issues.

Not so. Religion was around first then the atheists came later and borrowed what fit their views.
Atheism is a reletavely new stand in civilizations. No evidence of ancient atheistic cultures has been found.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

It's beyond me how religion is still credited to be the source of morality these days.

It because people don't just wake up and feel moral. The stories of previous generations about how religion made things better keep things going for the ancient writings of different cultures.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

No, I'm not going to use a different example. You say Mother Teresa and Martin Luther King Jr. speak to the ultimate meaning of Christianity. I could just as easily say that men of the Crusades speak to the ultimate meaning of Christianity. Both of these ideas depended upon scripture for their beliefs, but they certainly both can't be true. That is because they are both false in the same way; Christianity has no ultimate meaning to begin with. It is merely a book of moral statements, some of which are very outdated and some of which are not. This is not a book by which we live by. This is a book that we edit in order for it to remain within our worldview, for no other purpose than to feel some special pride in thinking that our moral convictions are backed up by an invisible omniscient force.



You're very ignorant to think that a scripture battle can be won through money. It's won through who has the most versus on their side. When we compare scripture, a very strong argument can be made pro-slavery while a very weak argument can be made anti-slavery. If God and Jesus saw no problem with it, neither should we. End of story.



You're either an idiot or you didn't read what I said in my previous post. In any case, I'm done with this thread.

I get this allot when dealing with people about religion and it brings me back to the original point of this thread.
Religion keeps me trying when others give up. It means discipline, perseverance, wisdom and compassion when all that is outside of religion lacks such things. Above all, it is my source for humility. The texts I turn to remind me of my place when reaching out to others. When people respond to me in this way I am further humbled by the fact that it takes more than what I am to change someone else's heart & mind, so I turn to my faith in prayer for those that I come in contact with.

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Originally Posted by kinkymagic

Why can't you do any of that without religion?

For me the Christian religion gives me reasons to persist even under great stress.

One reason from my Bible provides the light in the tunnel when I am surrounded by those that say it isn't there (i.e. eternal life & rewards).
Very helpful when my life is crap. My Bible teaches that I can overcome anything.

Another is that my religion gives me reason to believe I have great inherent value even when the world thinks I do not. This comes in handy when you go to school and your the shrimp that gets picked on.

Finally my religion relieves me of the weight of determining ultimately what is right and wrong. By depending on many centuries of previous recorded experience I am less apt to make mistakes. A great tool when the advice you get from friends isn't very good.

There are many other reasons but these are the ones I use daily. I tried being a tough guy and pulling myself up by my boot straps but one day I fell so hard I couldnt get up so I turned to my God and things got better when I listened to Him.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Soluzar

That's the answer to the question of why and how you feel your religion helps you to persist in the face of adversity. Now you need to answer the question of why you feel that you could not do so in the absense of religion.

It's the experience really. The experience of life without religion and having a father that was an atheist showed me how good things are with religion.

I was one of those kids that "had it hard". I grew up with poor drug dependent parents, the wife beating dad ect.
There was no model for structure in my home. Having a strong conscience I sought out structure to be all that my parents were not in an effort to be successful in life. After trying many sources, the Christian faith provided the basis for self assessment and change under guidelines outside of my own imagination. I thrived and found further growth from the faith in family building & leadership. My fathers lifestyle killed him and my Mom survives because of a rekindled faith that was surpressed by drugs.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by GhaleonQ

Rereading this topic, the relationship between political liberalism or conservatism and religious individualism or orthodoxy jumps out at me. LordsSword, political conservative or liberal?

Honestly I just call it a day by day journey. People have so many labels I just don't keep up with them very well. I never identify with any one group either like baptist, catholic, presbyterian, reformed this, ultra conservative that.

I just make the effort to take care to watch where I stand & if its with the wrong crowd, I'm gone. The wrong crowd=folks who flat out don't live the Bible with love and or ignore the main and plain what the book says.
Its tough knowing who to back in politics. I vote and go for the person who prays. I figure that person has a humble character and doesnt think thay are all high and mighty.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Soluzar

Careful. It's easy to be mislead in that way. Suppose that there was a presidential candidate who claimed to be a devout Christian, but was nothing of the sort in truth. You might never find out.

You'd vote for him, right? Especially if the other candidate was a godless heathen.

If the heathen is full of anti god statements the person wouldnt get my vote.

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

Question: If you could, would you vote Bush next election?

Yes if I have no other choice.
My religion serves a compass that points me in a direction. Ultimately my goal isn't to get the right person to lead the country. My goal is to get everyone I know to follow Jesus Christ so that they wont be disappointed with leaders that can't meet their every need. Every leader that I vote for who points to God in one form or another is doing the work I put them there to do.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by packrat

Would you rather have an openly atheistic person in office who is corrupted and incompetent, or an openly theistic person in office who is corrupted and incompetent?

I would stick with the theistic person. At least that individual could be held accountable to their belief system which is accessible to anyone who wants to point out errors in conduct. Saying that Bush is a poor christian representative at least makes written religious doctrine look good. The atheistic person however is only held accountable to what is lawful by the state and saying that that person is "bad" is purely a judgment call without some reference other than opinion.

Originally Posted by Soluzar

That's hardly a fair answer. You see, it's unlikely that any candidate for the presidency of the United States of America would ever have even a single serious "anti-god statement" on the public record, because he represents all Americans,

Good point. Like I said before, the leader I want is there to help me bring others to Christ. By calling people to pray (during hard times & National day of prayer) Bush has at least kept this door open for me with this kind of appeal to the public.

Originally Posted by Cain

I believe it is nearly impossible to ever know if a religion or belief is true.

Part of the reason why I gravitated to Jesus Christ is because of this statement:
John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

Other faiths are not as clear when it comes to following their systems. I want to aim at a specific mark when it comes to working out my eternal situation. I hate guessing and in the spiritual realm there is allot of guess work.
The reason why the spiritual is foremost on my mind is because I have seen plenty of death and suffering by volunteering in service to the homeless and visiting nursing homes on my job. Its ugly out there and my belief in heaven is sometimes the only thing between peace of mind and depression.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

Any decent, civilized, rational human being will be able to come to a conclusion that stealing, and murder, and cheating are wrong without the aid of a magical book.

This is true. I just pointed out that when a person says they follow the book anyone can correct that individual and help them stay on the path they said they are on. This is harder to do with a "grey area" oriented person. Without a written standard excuses can be made for anything.

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

You fit the bill perfectly when Daniel Dennett says many so-called religious people don't actually believe in God. But instead believe in belief. Your belief that there is a second life after your natural life on Earth no doubt comforts you greatly. The idea removes the uncertainty of death and what will become of you. But at no stage in believing in the afterlife does it ever become true, simply because you believe it to be.

Dennett is incorrect. My belief that there is a heaven is built upon my knowledge of God which comes form a Bible. I have dealt with suffering people and tough circumstances and witnessed miracles in answered prayer and fortitude in people that are in constant pain. When you get under the hood and see the engine of faith at work it makes you a believer that its founded on something real. This is the reason why I pointed to my personal heros in Martin Luther King Jr. & Mother Teresa. They were around for a long time and experienced too much to just right off as so much wishful thinking.

Get ready for such an experience. Remember a Christian is praying for you.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by packrat

Setting aside the now vocal opinion that the question I posed is, in one sense, what every American goes through every election year("lesser of two evils" votes), the purpose of my question is to gauge whether LordSword really feels that he would rather have "Christian" leadership, regardless of their adherence to the belief system which they proclaim(or lack therof), leading to what is essentially misrepresentation and defamation of this belief system or group.
Obviously, his response to said inquiry demonstrated that he has little, if any, understanding of this concept; or just isn't giving it the consideration that it deserves. The question is not flawed because it was intended to test how much he cared for the concept of public opinion, aiding me in deciding whether I should pursue any further discussion on the topic.

I would stick with the theist. Honestly your question made me think about this issue for a while, church types don't get taught much about the role of politics and forwarding the faith. In the past I just aimed at the character of humility in leadership defined by some indication of faith in God. I have more faith in that because I have seen it work in myself.

The past few years with Bush has made me grow and change a bit because I did help put him in office and have been disappointed to a degree but I chose to maximize what he has done for my personal benefit and in dialogue with others in various arenas. That man with his faults has opened up much in discussion on the Christian faith and I think that is great for witnessing & exposing people to their own issues and their need for a savior. Sure I will take a Christian who messes up. I can build on that.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

Isn't the Bible pretty much full of contradictory commandments?

Sorry it took so long to get to this question. No there are no contradictions in the Bible. I have seen a list made that presents contradiction but after careful study of the book as a whole the issues are cleared up. The true issue is that there is a conflict between human philosophy and biblical texts.

Atheism on the other hand has a blatant contradiction when corresponding with reality. Darwin's evolutionary theory, which is at the root of atheism has no basis for moral decision yet even an atheist says they have an inherent capacity & a drive for having a moral compass. If evolution is a law of nature, lying, stealing & murder is in the long run a benefit so long as the person who is good at it benefits and their progeny benefit from it.
On this basis alone the atheist cannot say that defying "moral" statutes is bad or wrong yet they do. Why?

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

Pretty much all religions make these claims; what makes your so special? I know that in my life amazingly lucky things have happened to me, but I never felt a need to put it down to anything but dumb luck.

I have centuries of evidence that answered prayer has been proven. If prayers didn't get answered once in a while there is little else to keep a believer going. My first proof is the existence of the Jewish people. Archeologists know that they were a small civilization hard pressed on all sides and even overwhelmed by other civilizations but their culture still survives today. Only answered prayer could account for Jewish persistence over thousands of years.

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

There have been many incredible Atheists who have made amazing contributions to mankind even though they had no faith in some greater being.

Some noted Atheists include - Albert Einstein, Charles Darwin, Carl Sagan, Benjamin Franklin and Sigmund Freud to name but a few.

Just because someone has a belief in something and then does good work, that does not mean that what they believe in is real.

You listed creative and inventive people. By their nature they believed in things that didn't not exist for others in their time but for them, their imagined concepts were real to them. Eventually their ideas took hold in society just like those of the people I mentioned. What makes our examples the same is that all of the people listed believed in something beyond themselves and that is what changed the world. What you should recognize is that the Christian example is just as successful despite the belief that their methods (such as prayer) are not a respected tool for effecting results.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

Yes, that's exactly what we need. More people depending on imaginary saviors instead of relying on their own self worth in the world.

When you say self worth by what means are you referring to? Do you mean by utilitarianism? I volunteer to serve those who could not benefit from this model of determining self worth. The elderly, the sick & infirm people of the world are so much garbage from the utilitarian view. I have seen the results first hand.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

I finally saw "Borat." During the course of the movie he goes to a......
The difference is that Borat knew he wasn't really speaking the voice of the Holy Spirit. The difference was that he wasn't temporarily insane. Speak to me of the wisdom of Christianity LordsSword, and I'll speak to you of it's madness.

There are belief systems for many things. Before you jump to conclusions about any given system please evaluate it first. There are many different groups who call themselves "Christian" but are not, they just take the title like so many people do for brand association. The one you saw is a cult that stresses non-biblical practices as its centerpiece for showing that a person is bound for heaven.

My religion is my source for purpose in life. Growing up with atheists for parents I saw that they had no purpose other than getting high on drugs, abusing themselves & mistreating others. Eventually as the old saying goes "the apple doesn't fall from the tree" and I did much of the same things they did. I thought I would be "better" than them and choose my paths more "wisely" than they. After many events that finally led to my dependance of alcohol and drugs did I finally realize that I can't do it alone. My religion requires me to be honest with myself. I truly had no basis for knowing what is "better" for my parents and I under the context that death is the final end to my existence. My faith in the reward for having faith in the work of Jesus Christ has become a joy filled life that is confirmed by Biblical texts.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

You are misunderstanding Darwin's theory of evolution. Natural Selection occurs at the level of the gene not the individual.

But the individual is the total potential of genes. When you make any choice it does have evolutionary reprucutions under Darwin's model. What you eat how you behave what you choose as a mate, these are choices just like the ones that people with that ability have to ensure their current success & progressing bloodline.

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

It's really not difficult to understand how an atheist can have a moral basis once you understand how morality does not and cannot originate from the Bible.

True, even the Bible admits that a persons conscience is an integral part of the human creation that showed the way to God before the commandments were given. Hence the reason why my previous lifestyle bothered me so much.

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

Imagine I'm a doctor and I tell you, you have terminal cancer with 3 months to live. These are mere words but if you believe them there would be dramatic change in your physiology. Immediately you pray to your God to help you through this ordeal. 3 months later you return to me and I tell you your cancer has inexplicably gone away. You would be convinced God intervened.

Its funny you brought this up. Someone I know has a parent who had this very same experience and that person is truely cured.

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

This whole idea that religion is needed in order for an individual to have a meaningful life is rather presumptuous. Where is it suggested that if one individual has no purpose in life without religion that suddenly all individuals without religion must also have no purpose?

A study of the book of Ecclesiastes in a Bible answered this question for me. Be honest, should death could take us at any time what purpose is there in anything other than the pursuit of pleasure? If atheism can answer this question I wouldn't chase after God.

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

So if I encountered a witch should I let her live (Exodus 20:13) or kill her (Exodus 22:18)?

I am sorely tempted but I wont turn this discussion in to a bible study. If you really want to know ask Jesus Christ to show you the answer.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Why? Are your own mental faculties not enough?

If it is indeed "His Word" meant for everyone, then why isn't it clear and concise enough to be read without divination?

Because I have noticed that your religion-->http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/court36.htm is bankrupt of hope and those that are devout to it have demonstrated that they are bent on taking hope from others.
My belief system encourages me to give hope and I dont see how it would do any good to provide it when all you have done so far is try to undermine my statements for the purpose of leaving people with nothing at all. Consider the questions at the bottom of this post and answer them if you can.

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

Yo Christ, get your ass down here because I've got a witch and I don't know what to do with her.

See what I mean? No hope and frankly a true lived out testimony of the core of atheism. My book at least warns me that this sort of thing would happen and I am fine with this sort of thing cause Jesus put up with it and taught believers how to get stronger from it.
My prayer for you is that when the day comes, you will see the face of God in the person that makes the effort to help you understand.

I'm just curious why the atheists here havent stated how their belief system makes their life a "good" one. How has atheism and its attendant philosophies encouraged you to be a "good" person? How has your system helped you to be a productive member of society?
I would like to know the atheist standard of what is good & bad and how they strive to measure up.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Soluzar

It's very simple. I know what harms someone else, and I don't do it. No doubt you will choose to overcomplicate this, but it really is that simple. I don't need a religion to tell me what will cause harm to someone.........Each person has their own interpretation of where the line is drawn for these things, and their moral guidelines are not relative to mine.

If you go back and read the posts of the other atheists here are not big on your view of respect. If I was a weaker person my feelings would have been hurt by their comments, which it seems to me quite intentional.
I understand that there is no basis for uniformity in conduct for atheists but I have seen posted several times the message that an atheist does pursue good aims in living. Answer for me please the basis for pursing the path of being a productive member of society. As I stated before I grew up with atheists that just didnt care about much and I see in some of the representatives here the same attributes (negative outlook, excessive pride, low opinion of other views, violent reactions) that I was accustomed to as a child. You at least have some mechanism for restraint. Be a witness for me and tell me your story.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

If someone espouses and belief, and then constantly ducks or evades my questions and gives no good reasons for their belief I tend to lose respect for them.

So if people dont measure up to your standards they don't deserve respect?
My bible says everyone deserves respect, so I do my best to honor that command in an effort to be what God intended for me to be. If you are serious with your questions, please take a moment and lay down your own standards and be considerate of the person you are asking.

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

I suppose your parents didn't play the sousaphone either. Does that mean that all non-sousaphone players are arseholes?

Last time I checked atheists depend on the data available to make their conclusions. If I am treated with disrespect by the majority of the atheists I meet my conclusion will reflect the experience. Besides without God I have no written information available that says you should behave any differently.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Token

No, if they cant explain their own religion or beliefs when they spit garbage out of their mouths, they dont deserve respect. I have met people that claim they are devout Christians, but when we debate, they cant make valid arguments, then they have the gall to get angry. They pout and call you a heathen(most dont know what a heathen is so they say something else that is even less attractive). That deserves no respect.

So, if they cant measure up to any good standard they deserve no respect.

Its this very reason why I love my bible. The book has tried and tested methods for dealing with people that are not nice and turning such bad situations into a good ones.
When you live the book and take the worst the world has on the chin without acting the way the world does, then you are in the position for making change. My man MLK jr. did it. Its called taking the moral high ground. When you just fight with people you are no better than the feces throwing monkeys atheists believe they descended from. My books says I am a divine creation and that what I strive to live up to.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Klaus

Not so, conflict sometimes brings people to create solutions for their problems.

I choose to depend on history to avoid making the same mistakes from previous generations.

Originally Posted by Klaus

I wonder how a "divine creation" is supposed to behave anyway. It seems like such a lofty term for human being or am I mistaken?

Being created in the image of a perfect being is lofty. The point I get from the concept is to shoot for a standard in conduct & aspirations that requires continual growth on my part. Others know if I am successful in Christian living when they can consistently see a reflection of the biblical ideals in me.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by FallDragon

You say that these people who speak in the Holy Spirit aren't really "Christian" and that they're a "cult" that uses "non-biblical practices." Well, who the fuck are you to judge whether a person is Christian or not?

It not me its the book ->1 Corinthians 14:5. I go by the book and it doesnt say I have to blabber in a special way to show that I am bound for heaven.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

My point is, Christianity means what you want it to mean. You, LordsSword, like to pretend that Christianity is a clear-cut religion.

I claim no denomination, I just read the book-->Luke 10:27 . The anciant european crusaders were "christian" too but they didnt love their neighbor. The label of Christian does not conform to what you put it on, its all about the book.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

I was perfectly considerate when I first asked, but you've yet to give me a decent answer. Maybe next time I'll finally get a straight forward answer, as I found your orignial response to be insulting.

I knew it would be but its the truth. Matthew 11:25
1 Corinthians 2:14

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Man, I type all that up and no response.

Sorry, I only had a few minutes to visit last time. I'm glad you are interested.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Wow, see, this is why I don't like Christians. Already I've been mislabeled and now I'm being told that there's no hope without a supreme being. And, yet, I am the one with the weak mind.

Prior to my statement of "no hope" I didn't see any signs of any, so I put that out there to goad you into showing your deal. When you say you dont like Christians, I can tell. As a Christian I am required to be the opposite I am supposed to love you no matter what and if it could fix things I will apologize for my own actions and the actions of every christian you have met that has not shown you the respect you deserve. I will be the first to admit that we suck when it comes to sharing our faith & living it correctly. I heard a statement made by Ghandi once "I like their christ but not the christian" I think the guy had a point, but I am still here to do my part to make things right and work through error and success. Be you angry or content I benefit from your reactions.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Why do you need God to motivate you to do the right thing and not just do it out of the fact that it's generally a good thing to not cause harm/hardship for other human beings?

Without God I have more reasons to just take care of my own interests. From time to time I volunteer to help other Christians from other churches in my town with the work of aiding homeless people. It can be hard work but the bible says there is additional rewards for helping people especially the poor. Matthew 6:19-20
Before I was into the bible I was extremely selfish. My time was often wasted on things I can't even remember anymore. After I started volunteer work people told me my character had changed for the better.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Generally, having goals and educating yourself is the formula for a productive member of society. Self-motivation goes a long way, in fact, I feel it's the only motivation that truly exists.

I can agree with this. It irritates me when the religious types try to scare others with the threat of HELL to get motivation. I don't fear hell, I just want as many people I meet to come to heaven with me.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by FallDragon

Tell me LordsSword, do you consider yourself a prophet or a vessel? I mean, you obviously have to be one of the two when looking at these verses.

I'm no prophet. I'd fail the Deuteronomy 13 test but every believer in Jesus is a vessel Acts 2:38. You could be as well since you have taken such a heated interest in my posts.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

My point stands: Christians, according to scripture, can certainly babble out in gibberish thinking the Holy Spirit is speaking through them. Scripture supports temporary insanity.

My issue with the babblers is that they dont follow ALL of the instructions in the book. Notice there are plenty of those with something to blabber about but there are no intrepetors <1 Corinthians 14:13> to be found to make their speech usable for others.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

Like I said earlier, there is no "true" Christian message, only various personal interpretations.

This is the true christian mesage> John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

If this isn't the true christian message then how do you come to your conclusion?

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

There's a difference between being self-interested and being self-absorbed. Acting in your best interests is a healthy, productive habit. What most people have trouble with is actually identifying that which is actually in their best interest. Volunteering your efforts in the service of the whole is actually in most people's best interest. However, erecting financial hegemonies which thrive on maintaining an undereducated, poor working class maybe profitable, but not actually in one's best interest (he says as he notices a can full of worms falling to the floor).

I understand this. Unlike you I had nothing but the drive of appetite and my pride as my source of direction prior to my conversion. There was a time when I gave Mojo Jojo a run for his money when it came to the ego. I would have laughed at any persons attempts of gaining morality through logic.
I'm serious, I was as corrupt as they come and knowing the depth of evil I had reached, I conclude that trying to pin the "dark side" in that way is futile. It looks good in words but when life happens we find that it is much harder to live by any standard that is known only to ourselves.

The bible convicts me in a way that reinforces my conscience. Plus I can't change the words as I get older. I also belong to a group of people who hold me accountable to my lifestyle. Finally, after my acceptance of Jesus through prayer I started seeing evidence of Acts 2:38 and other biblical concepts at work in my life. This is the line that I invite all of you to cross so you can see for yourself. If its not true then the prayer of asking "Jesus to be Lord and savior" is just words having no effect, if it is the truth then.....

Man sometimes I feel like Morpheus trying to hand out the pills in the Matrix movie. I like that movie, its full of biblical concepts.
http://www.whysanity.net/monos/matrix3.html

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Denicalis

Did you just compare yourself to the prophet archetype? Sweet Evil Monkey Descended Christ, son. That is so fucking arrogant. Also, the Matrix was filled with philosophical references, chief. It just so happens a lot of early work they did was focused on religion.

No I don't see myself in that way. My religion has this command that I carry out >Mark 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

Like the Matrix movie character I present my case for freedom. Thats how I see it. The concept that people are made slaves (2 Peter 2:19) is a reality that I identify with. I was a slave to drugs & pride like my parents were and the bible gave me freedom that I like to present to others. It pains me to see one of my old buddies still drinking himself numb and driving when he shouldn't. I do what I can but some folks don't want to swallow what the bible says even if it would save their life.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by FallDragon

You misunderstood my use of the word "vessel." I used the word to represent allowing the holy spirit to talk through you in tongues, as per described in the verses you pointed out. I'll reword my question to you to be more clear: Do you prophecy or do you speak in tongues?

No i'm not gifted in this area. I do have a friend who has a grasp on prophecy though.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

So you think if there was someone listening to their babble and trying to explain to everybody what it means, it would become more legitimate?

If the resulting translation is in alignment with biblical texts, yes.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

So pray tell, which rules out of this chapter of Corinthians should we follow and which ones should we ignore?

Earlier I told someone to ask Jesus for the answer. I invite you to do the same thing. My intent in stating this, is for you to first get rid of you preconceived notions of how things should be. If you can't do that then please don't ask any more questions.

The again, if you are willing lets pay attention to what Jesus has to say
Matt 22:36-40 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Its not about ignoring a biblical prescription of how a church should be run. You must first know the primary intent upon which the writing is built on.
The command for women to be silent was necessary for the times and people in which the texts were written for or it would not have come up. We weren't there to know what the people were like, I do know that the women of that day may not have had much to offer considering that they did not have the same educational opportunities as men. Based on what Jesus has to say, the intent of the author was in the best interest of the organization so that people can be taught from the best sources.

For too long, I know that the book is used as a tool for dominating people & beating them down instead of loving them & building people up. Many here see how a Christian acts and assumes that the bible encourages such behavior. Your assumptions are based on a lack of bible knowledge.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

Unfortunately, such a tidy little verse has many, many undertones to it that many Christians are divided on.

True we are divided but not because of the bible. The book calls for unity >Ephesians 4:3-6<
but people go their own way.

Originally Posted by GhaleonQ

I get it; you're goading Lord's Sword.

Its ok, they are actually proving my book right. John 15:18-21
I'm getting lots of practice too PRAISE GOD.

FELIPE NO

Bible breathing Christian worldview here, returning to the scene, I have an update to share.

I have found my Fath experience to be an incredible source of support.
In dealing with tremendous difficulties in living as of late I have found that having a church + God believing family & friends a source of refuge and stregnth.

In my Christian experience I haven't stood alone in my life. Not only do I have people who currently stand with me using the same play book (the bible), I also have histories of past believers and their legacy passed on to me.

Can the nonchristians here say the same?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by kinkymagic

You seem to be asking if non-christians have gained support from being christians, which seems to be an oxymoron. Personally, I have never felt like I needed support which I couldn't find from non-religious sources.

So in your belief system you have found some form of support? Please, explain.

Originally Posted by Capo

If that's the reason you're Christian, you may as well go join a cult.

Which cult? I am familiar with many. My own faith tradition did start out with the "cult" label, where am I going wrong?

Originally Posted by Pangalin

I am pretty sure there are many nonchristians who draw strength from their faith, LS. Besides, you're not allowed to use the "I need help from a book in order to get through life" angle. That's our angle. We need it to make fun of you.

But its true, the bible has guided me in my relationship stratagems. Without it I wouldnt have a clue on many of the issues I deal with a wife & kids. My parents and my society as a whole never gave me the insight that has made me as successful as bible instruction. I am often made fun of, but I know its because of the age old reason of being book smart.

Originally Posted by a lurker

I expect the jews and the muslims also find solace in their religious texts as well. Even atheists can find strength in their families and friends, and past people to which the atheist feels a deep sense of respect towards.

Nigger, please.

But I asked YOU and the people here if you can say the same. A generalization of human experience isn't the same as what you have to say about your own life and what your religion means to you. Please share and ease up a bit, i'm not in a position to judge you.

Jam it back in, in the dark.