The Middle East spirals out of control!

So what do Arabian textbooks have to do with this, exactly?

I also fail to see what significance Israeli recruitment of children has on this. Israelis must perform mandatory military service, and if everybody's going to be in the service, they should be familiar with the nature of it at a young age.

Kids taking up arms sucks, but that's how the Israelis feel they need to protect themselves.

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I just thought that these were images that would not be seen by many in the west.

Was it supposed to phase us? If kids could write messages on artillery shells here in the states they'd probably write something like "Osama is doo doo."

There's nowhere I can't reach.

It was called Medieval: Total War.
Filthy Turks

I also don't see what was uncalled for, since you didn't really specify.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

"Billy, where are you going with a hammer and a cone-shaped object in your backpack?"

"I'm going to school, Dad, GODDAMN WHY YOU GOTTA BE ALL UP IN MY GRILL YOU NEED TO GET OUT OF IT."

"Be back by 5, Sport."

How ya doing, buddy?

On the other hand, if Israel doesn't go to war against Hezbollah, then they become victims, which still means that nobody is right.

I was speaking idiomatically.

And encouraging Lebanon to move against Hezbollah starts a new civil war, particularly since UN forces act under peacekeeping criteria. That kind of situation would require peacemakers, and there's no guarantee that such a mission would take place to begin with. It didn't happen last year when Hezbollah launched rocket attacks to cover an abduction attempt.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

On the other hand, that is precisely the action that has forced the UN to deem it necessary to intervene.

FELIPE NO

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The bottom line is that Israel is not taking the measures that it should to avoid these casualties.

So what measures, exactly, should Israel be taking? Should there be a plain-clothes Mossad operative on the ground in every single Southern Lebanese city making sure that there aren't rockets in each and every building?

How convenient it is to criticize Israel for bombing villages when you don't have to do anything about it, nor particularly want to, I'd imagine. Your government apparently doesn't. That would be convenience as well, though.

You talk about how people don't have all the facts when you cite the Munich Agreement and Germany's fictional invasion of Great Britain as meaning that Netanyahu has no comparison to be made. Maybe if Munich concerned German aggression on British interests as opposed to the Sudetenland (Czechoslovakian) you'd have something there. Especially if it didn't mean that the victimized party (Czechoslovakia) wasn't even invited to the negotiations. I suppose the Firebombing of Dresden didn't make Great Britain a terrorist state because the Nazis bombed London. The British were also one of the winners. How convenient.

War crimes themselves are constructs designed to make it that much easier to prosecute the losers in any conflict. Since there aren't any winners when it comes to Arab/Israeli conflict, though, the international body gets to play a fun game of finger pointing and reach arounds, accusing Israel of "war crimes" and "disproportionate force" with one hand while mainting its right to "defend itself" with the other. Isn't it so convenient? It's like, having your cake and eating it too.


I like how words like "indiscriminate" get thrown around in reference to Israeli attacks on civilian targets. This couldn't be further from the truth. Israel is intentionally attacking UN targets, Civilian targets, Hospitals, Schools, Roads, etc., etc., etc. Why? Because the nature of Hezbollah's operation makes them a party to the conflict. Does it excuse the civilian deaths? Absolutely not. Yet that's what's happening, and it happens because of how Hezbollah wants to play the game, not Israel.

It's easy to say that Israel's attacks are unfounded while not doing anything about it. Especially when Hezbollah uses UN Ambulances as APCS.

But yes indeed, Hezbollah wouldn't have a leg to stand on if Israel left the Farms and released all of their Lebanese prisoners. To you, perhaps. I don't think Iran, Syria, or the Shi'as in Hezbollah-built housing would particularly notice the difference. Especially when Hezbollah knew that abducting Israeli soldiers would spark a conflict. Israel began operations in Gaza a week in advance of the Hezbollan attack. They had plenty of time to figure it out, and yet the abduction went through.

Hezbollah doesn't have a leg to stand on much like Hamas doesn't have a leg to stand on. This is because despite the suffering of their people at the hands of the Israelis, neither party makes an effort to attack the tools of their oppression. Instead, they indiscriminately kill Israelis and each other over petty grievances, while not doing anything to better themselves or their people.

You didn't mean to imply that the state of Israel shouldn't exist when you said they should give Arabs back their land. Yet that's essentially what you've suggested. Or have you forgotten that Hamas considers the entirety of Israel and the occupied territories as Palestine?

Israel has ceded land back to the Arabs, and they do treat their neighbors as more than animals. They've been able to create and maintain decent relations with the Egyptians and Jordanians, after all. They even ceded the Sinai back to Egypt after they proved themselves as being no longer a threat. Of course, the West Bank wasn't given back to Jordan, but the Jordanians didn't particularly want it back. Particularly since the Arabs in the West Bank no longer thought of themselves as Jordanians.

I guess, though, we can continue to talk here about issues that we're not a party to. Making easy talk and vindicating our world views based on criteria that ultimately have no meaning. I guess that's convenience.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

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Well, at the very least, Human Rights Organizations have clearly stated Hezbollah doesn't hide amongst civilians as much as we'd like to believe. However, we know that civilians are still dying at an astonishing rate. It leads one to ask questions, don't you think?

Not really. Lebanese are dying at a high rate because every single structure in Lebanon has been made a potential target. I'm not sure what classifies as "hiding amongst civilians" to human rights watches, but if they're firing rockets in front of hospitals and hiding them in and around civilian sites, you'd think that would count, wouldn't you? Besides, how exactly are they going to tell that Hezbollah is or isn't hiding amongst civilians if they're not wearing Body Armor?

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Just because you aren't a party to a conflict, should that stop you, or anyone from discussing it? I mean, you are the person who started this thread. Or is it just convienance for me because I'm not on the right side?

I started the thread because I thought it would be interesting to follow, and so far it's proven to be so. I'm just starting to think that maybe the whole thing has gotten out of hand. Too many quote wars, get my meaning?

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Hey, I said the treaty was screwy. I didn't go into the details because it would have confused the issue.

i.e. it would have meant you didn't have a rebuttal. It's ok if you don't have anything. You can always address a topic later when you come up with something good, this isn't team debate, and there are no judges that are going to review your performance.

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The historical context on war crimes certainly is enlightening, but that doesn't change the definition of what they are. Whether it was Israel doing this or Great Britain, wouldn't you still argue that at least a few of the acts I listed above classify as war crimes?

Absolutely. It's practically impossible, though, not to commit warcrimes when you're fighting an organization that makes use of the civilian infrastructure. I don't think War Crimes really mean anything, but I was still outraged when we indiscriminately used White Phosphorus in Fallujah, because it demonstrated that those in our military command, perhaps even at the very top, don't give two shits worth a damn about the Iraqis, which caused me to question the reason we're over there to begin with. So far, the Israelis haven't been using chemical agents on civilian targets, and they've made considerable efforts at fore-warning, if not entirely consistant. They used WP in the 80's though, so I guess it may just be a matter of time. Depends on how far the whole shebangabang escalates.

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But can you prove to me that the people who are dying are related to Hezbollah? Can you even prove if Hezbollah was even in the area? Because Human Rights Watch has released a document that could prove you otherwise. This is important to remember when talking about these "indiscriminate" or "intentional" Lebanese civilian casualties. I'd argue that many of the Israeli attacks are both.

I can't prove that they were Hezbollah anymore than you can prove they weren't. That's the kind of conflict that's occurring here, where plain-clothed militants make the entire country a warzone due to their reluctance to play the war game like the big boys. They do a better job uniforming themselves when they fight the IDF, but otherwise they aren't exactly trying to paint gigantic bullseyes on their rocket stockpiles so that Israeli F-16s can congenially bomb them into oblivion. Besides, every new dead kid serves Hezbollah more than it does Israel.

As for the Human Rights Watches's "proof"

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Human Rights Watch investigators in Lebanon have recorded an appalling number of incidents in which civilians and civilian objects were hit with no apparent military justification

Apparent is the key word here. What makes a site of apparent military value to Human Rights Watch? Do they need to be flying Hezbollah flags from their roofs to be of apparent military value? What about South Beirut? It's clearly not apparent that anything there has military value considering that everything is covered in rubble in an area that was off-limits to outsiders before the conflict.

I also wouldn't be so quick to buy emotional accounts of whether or not one's place of work or residence was a target considering the following:

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The National Post
TYRE, Lebanon - When Dr. Fouad Fatah emerged bleary-eyed from the ruins of his hospital during a pause in Israeli air strikes last week, it felt like the first time in forever.

He counted himself as the last living soul in the five-room clinic, the only hospital serving this devastated swath of Lebanon's south. His surviving patients had already been evacuated.

The surgeon led a group of journalists over what remained: mangled debris, shredded walls and a roof punched through by an Israeli shell.

"Look what they did to this place," Dr. Fatah said, shaking his head. "Why in the world would the Israelis target a hospital?"

The probable answer was found a few hours later in a field nearby. Hidden in the tall grass were the burned remnants of a rocket-launcher.

Confronted with the evidence, Dr. Fatah admitted his hospital could have been used as a site from which to fire rockets into Israel.

"What choice to we have? We need to fight back from somewhere," he said, tapping his foot on the ground.

"This is Hezbollah's heartland."

It would also be good to know how Human Rights Watch gathered this proof, and what that proof is.

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Wait a second. That video supposedly took place in the Gaza Strip, and there's no proof that those men are members of Hezbollah, or even that that took place in the Gaza Strip. I also have to ask you: that scene was captured from all angles. Don't you think those cameras were a little convienently located? The video was no doubt shocking, but of little relevance to Lebanon.

Isn't it? Hezbollah has a similar modus operandi as Hamas. The difference between the two is that Hezbollah is more capable of fighting in the open. It's because they operate on such similar levels, that a lot of "neutral" vehicles have become military targets. There's a reason behind each and every action of the IDF, though you'll be hard pressed to prove that reason as being pure malice towards the Lebanese people. It doesn't particularly excuse it, but it isn't right to paint the Israelis as bloodthirsty animals, either.

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that scene was captured from all angles.

Not really. There's a lot of gunfire, but no real indication of where it's coming from or what is the target. I guess there's a lot about it that can't be proven, but it is an evidence of a sort, which is more than I can say for Human Rights Watches's reports.

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Hezbollah wouldn't have a leg to stand on if those conditions were met. Not just to me, but probably to the international community, because Hezbollah wouldn't be able to justify itself.

Hezbollah already doesn't have a leg to stand on to the international community. Why do you think Israel catches so much flak for their warcrimes when Hezbollah doesn't? It's because one of the two can be negotiated with, and I think you can guess which one I'm talking about. If Hezbollah has a leg to stand on, why haven't we seen anybody support them openly? Any government whatsoever? Hmm? Iran aside.

Hezbollah doesn't need to justify itself. They've already got a set amount of constituents that will support them come rain or shine. So long as they advocate the destruction of Israel, and act in a manner which indicates they will, the money and weapons keep coming in from Iran, and the people of South Lebanon are cowed into submission.

It's interesting that Israeli methods of detainment have been compared to Apartheid. Why isn't it, then, that there hasn't been an Arab Nelson Mandela?

I will admit that assassination is a possibility.

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You can't condemn me for using "indiscriminate" and then use it yourself in the same context. Yes, Hezbollah is being "indiscriminate." But so is Israel.

Quite the contrary. The point I'm making is that Israel does not indiscriminately target civilian structures. They pick and choose targets based on their perceived usefulness to Hezbollah. Hezbollah on the other hand, indiscriminately fires rockets into Israel, not with the intent of hitting anything of military value, but to attack civilians for the sake of killing civilians. The use of ball-bearings and nails in the Katjushas is clear evidence of this. Have the Israelis used WP? Have they used Cluster Bombs? Until the munitions reflect intent, you have no proof.

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There are other solutions.

Are there? What solution is there when it comes to dealing with an entity that would love nothing more than to drive you and your loved ones into the ocean and take everything you hold dear? You said to "give the Arabs back their land." If certain Arabs in Palestine believe that all of Israel is theirs, then there is no other option. There either can be no Israel, or there can be no Palestine. This is the solution that Hamas is striving towards, and if you give an inch, they will indeed take a yard.

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I stand by what I said before, because the claim that Hamas made is true.

While that can be said for Gaza and the West Bank, it can hardly be said for the majority of Israel. The Jews bought that land fair and square from the Turks and the British. If any of that land was "stolen" then complain to the British for not upholding their bargains, not Israel. In fact, a lot of land that was to be a part of the Jewish state cordoned off from Palestine is now a part of the West Bank. Whose land has been stolen by whom? It doesn't really matter at all. The entire thing is an artificial construct, and if Israel didn't exist, Palestine would just be a part of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria.

Israel won its right to exist by force. Saying that they "stole" the Arab land is irrelevant. They land they worked and payed for was going to be seized by the Arabs, and as a result, Israel was forced to expand for the sake of Strategic Security. This is why the Sinai is possessed by Egypt and the Golan Heights are still occupied by Israel. If Syria wasn't hostile to Israel there would be no reason to hold the Heights, just as if there was no Hezbollah, there would be no reason to occupy the Farms.

In any case, you're giving Israel shit for being a player in a game they never wanted a part of.

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Do you feel differently now than a few weeks ago about this crisis, because you started this thread. If all we're doing here is small talk, then everyone's guilty of that. If nothing we are talking about has meaning, then what does?

I'm just trying to bring this whole thing back into perspective. You guys are becoming too emotionally involved in this, and while I can't blame you for it, the thread will be closed if there are too many posts like this. Of course we're all guilty of engaging in meaningless banter. I didn't exclude myself from that fact. What's more important, however, is the debate not the issue. This forum exists so that people could engage themselves intellectually and politically, and if we start endlessly throwing mud at each other and making unfounded arguments and accusations, then we haven't really gotten anywhere. It's the reason we don't allow anymore relgious threads.

If you want to accuse me of emotionally detaching myself from the situation, then that's fine. I'd rather look at things logically and reasonably than emotionally.

How ya doing, buddy?

Clearly this discredits everything. =/

There's nowhere I can't reach.

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They do have a choice to risk these insane amounts of civilian casualties

So, if a thousand dead civvies from a month of fighting is insane, how would you quantify when Israel used WP rounds on refugee camps and dropped cluster bombs on Beirut in the 90's and 80's?

Most amazing jew boots

The problem with your stance, though, is that Israel has no other choice except not reacting at all, or engaging in prisoner exchange. I think you'd understand why that isn't an option, and why 1000 dead people in a month's fighting is hardly "insane."

How ya doing, buddy?

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Or have they just underestimated the Hezbollah's capabilities?

More like understated, I think.

I was speaking idiomatically.