[General Discussion] Most Retarded Character Moments

That Locke suspects Celes doesn't mean he hadn't grown to care about her. It was human nature. I think I would've doubted her too in that situation. But it's not like he ever believed it with any certainty. As for Locke saying "Let's go" on the ship to Thamasa, he didn't do it with any coldness in mind. He looked back and kept going. Why? Because by that point it's understood that each of them was sorry about the circumstances, and that they both had feelings for each other. If you were expecting Locke to go into an obvious monologue about how he misread Celes and how he loves her deeply, you're going to have to look to the hamfisted storytelling of the Sony generation Final Fantasy games instead. With the exception of FFXII, which actually shows some restraint.

1. FFVII

Spoiler:

Cloud goes with Tifa after the game favors Aeris in terms of a romantic link. I've heard all the excuses about Aeris becoming attached the Zack in Cloud, but that doesn't change how their relationship comes off as the honest one whereas Tifa is just a shady bitch from the start. Oh, Cloud, I forgot to tell you I've been lying to you and that Sephiroth is right... Boom, there goes Cloud's mind. Then you discover all about Tifa being the popular whore and Cloud being the loner. And for reasons having nothing to do with a romantic link having been forged, they are forced together after Aeris dies, and all the dreams of every game nerd out there come to life. Oh yeah, Cloud the loser got the popular big-breasted chick, so maybe one day I will too.

2. XG

Spoiler:

OMG, we're all just running away. That much is bad enough, but what's even more overdone is each incarnation of Elly finding ways to die for her love with Fei. By the time we see the original Elly get blasted trying to protect Abel, I couldn't take it seriously anymore. Then Elly finally has sex with Fei and all she can do the morning after is bust out into a preachy monologue about the nature of love, blah, blah. Those two were predestined for each other anyways, and yet the game finds ways to exaggerate their connection, always beating you over the head with things that are already understood.

3. FFVIII

Spoiler:

Holy cow, we all grew up in the same orphanage? Imagine meeting and joining up with each other by chance even though our memories got wiped by a vague mention of GFs sometimes doing that to people over long periods of time. This is probably the lamest plot twist ever. If they thought I would be impressed by the depth of anything, they were very wrong. It just came off as a terribly contrived way of uniting the cast.

4. PSIV

Spoiler:

I remember the ending of Phantasy Star IV being very awkward. Rika says she has to leave and does so before changing her mind and coming back to be with Chaz. It seems like an okay concept, except that the way it happens give me the impression that the writers had no idea how to end the game on a high note, partly due to the fact that Chaz and Rika had never developed that kind of relationship. It seemed rushed, and instead of enjoying it, I found myself thinking, "uh, okay". Not the ending I was expecting for an otherwise solid experience.

5. FFX

Spoiler:

Braska's Final Aeon: "Tidus, I am your father. Search your feelings, you know it to be true." Tidus: "I hate you!" Nuff said.

Forgot one:

6. FFIX

Spoiler:

Zidane's personality had been established from the getgo as a caring and optimistic guy. Yet upon discovering his past, he does an about face and suddenly becomes an ass. Meanwhile everyone sucks up "You Are Not Alone!" with great joy while I find myself wondering why writers do this sometimes. The way Zidane reacts is contradictory to everything we knew about the guy to that point. He goes from wanting to save everyone to, "just forget it" and "leave me alone, fools". The whole sequence was unnecessary.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by SOLDIER

Okay, maybe a little bit.

Spoiler:

Sounds like you're saying that Tifa's too hot for a dork like Cloud. Welcome to the last 20 years of RPGs. And if the big flashback near the end didn't convince you, perhaps the extra backstory they've been feeding you with the latest spinoffs (Last Order, Advent Children, soon Crisis Core) is proof enough. They also confirmed that Aerith did have feelings for Cloud, not "the Zack in Cloud", and was even jealous when she saw that he and Tifa had a thing going.

No, I'm saying that Cloud had a more natural developing relationship with Aeris in the here and now and that they force him to be with Tifa in a way that is not nearly as convincing. And I'm saying that Tifa is shady. She goes along with a lie that nearly destroys Cloud's mind. To protect him? That's what they expect you to believe, but it's convoluted nonsense. There's no logical explanation for why she wouldn't just correct him because she had no idea what was going on in the first place. That's what makes her shady. Then by putting his mind back together a love is established that was never there? It's like Aeris's death was an excuse to suddenly force Cloud and Tifa together. Tifa is a subpar character, period. She exists only as a prop for Cloud's story and has no personality or motivations of her own. Aeris at least had a purpose and at the same time her relationship with Cloud had a nice charm to it all the way to the ride at Gold Saucer. Her simple innocence played well against Cloud's angsty attitude. I can't say the same for Tifa who has virtually no relationship with him aside from the promise flashback and having been there when Sephiroth iced her dad. (which by the way she doesn't seem all that concerned about; you'd think that she might want vengeance the way Cloud did, but being the character she is, it's not evident that she feels all that strongly about anything)

But as you said, that's my opinion, and I know you interpret it differently... However, I still think that my interpretation is more consistent with what is presented in the game.

Originally Posted by SOLDIER

The heart-felt I-love-you's and gratuitous sex scene occured before either of them knew about their destiny, so the sentiment still stands. Yes, it was all mushy, but after 50 hours of suffering, I didn't mind the characters finding happiness with each other.

The "sentiment" stands, but that wasn't my point. My point is that they tried too hard and had no respect for the ability of the player to understand certain things. But then that's the story with a lot of Xenogears. It has a lot of stilted, preachy, and condescending dialog. I enjoy it on a philosophical and historical level, but as far as being moved by emotion, those moments were few and far in-between. Though it was amusing to have Fei call Elly a "snot" in Solaris.

Originally Posted by SOLDIER

Uh, he knew way back that was his father. I thought it was pretty well done myself.

Spoiler:

He didn't know that his father had become part of Sin and that he would have to face him as the final boss. I thought the cliche was lame and the VA for Tidus when he says, "I hate you!" is horrible.

Originally Posted by SOLDIER

Well, it was a pretty lousy thing to learn about. I would think learning that his life was a lie would hit an optimistic person the hardest. The emo personality only lasted about 10 minutes anyway.

Yes, but he knew about it just earlier when he decided that he would fight and only developed the emo personality after waking up from his catatonic state. It's just not consistent with his personality up to that point. It would've been consistent with Vivi's though. And even that whiny guy didn't take his character-related revelation as hard.

As an example of the difference between a drastic decision that is consistent with the established personality of a character and one that is not, look at Terra when she decides not to fight. The whole time everyone had been trying to pull her strings and after the big plot twist she had little reason to resume the battle of her own free will. When she decides to choose to fight of her own volition, that's the completion of her story arc. She finally finds herself seperate of her origins and chooses to fight for something she came to believe in. Zidane had already chosen beforehand to fight for everything he believed in. Even when Garland told him everything, Zidane refused his offer and said that he would defy Garland to the last. Then just as suddenly he gives up and acts like an ass to his friends. I understand the intent, but the event was ill-advised. Zidane didn't need to have a breakdown to be a better character. His strengths as a character had already been defined through the trials he had gone through before that point. And so his reaction to the twist comes off as a terribly contrived piece of melodrama.

Originally Posted by SOLDIER

It so much that he doubts her, but that he took that particular moment to do it, when he's knee-deep in the enemy's base, soon to be surrounded by guards (which is what happened). "We'll talk about this later, let's get out of here!" would've probably justified the whole moment.

I still don't understand why it's so hard for you to accept that Locke would have doubts in that moment. They found themselves surrounded by the enemy and Celes was a former Imperial General who as Cyan mentioned, had "torched" Maranda. Locke didn't know her all that well yet and so when Kefka said that it was all a setup, it seemed a possibility to me. Locke tries to talk to her afterwards because he realizes that he misjudged her character. On the boat, they have more immediate concerns with trying to reach a compromise with the Espers, and so Locke plays it cool.

As for the thought that Celes might've been a spy for real, I believe you can ask Gestahl about that in the banquet and he says no. He says something along the lines of Celes having realized the need for cooperation before anyone else did. Sure, Gestahl is a liar as proved by something that happens later, but Celes proves that she wasn't a spy through her actions as well, so it can be safely assumed that he wasn't lying about that one.

Originally Posted by CelticWhisper

I always interpreted the PSIV Rika bit as her not wanting to go back with Wren and Demi to another isolated computer station after having seen the great outdoors. That's what Wren meant when he was talking about her path ahead being hard and painful.

Though the "Rika!" "Chaz!" bit was unintentionally hilarious. Why couldn't I have renamed them Marcia and John? That and Chaz (apparently) crying when Rune said they'd never meet again. I consider many claims of Chaz being a whiny bitch to be a tad overblown, but I'll grant them that one. Especially considering that A. he just survived a battle with the greatest evil in the universe (presumably responsible for half its creation) and B. RUNE WAS A DICK TO YOU ANYWAY, YOU WHINY BITCH.

Yeah, I gathered as much, but it was definitely handled in a weird way. I'll have to watch it again to go into detail, but I do remember finding it a bit odd, maybe because of what you're saying about "Rika!" "Chaz!" or something.

Chaz was a bit whiny for sure. But then Alys was a tough teacher. Rune was an ass to Chaz, but he's definitely my favorite character in the game. He was blunt, but also honest. When the time came, he gave Chaz the respect as his "chosen one". Plus he has a cool backstory. I guess Rune was the character who as able to surprise me the most, and always in a good or humorous (taunting and arguing with Chaz) way.

There's nowhere I can't reach.