[General Discussion] Games you consider "Perfect"?

I didn't enjoy Zelda 3 as much as I would've hoped, but I must admit that it's difficult to find any shortcomings in the game. I enjoy OOT more not because it's superior in the game design department but because it's more cinematic and epic about everything. I'm curious as to what you consider to be your other perfect game since you said you had two.

A perfect game? I have a handful of candidates, but there's one that I think perhaps qualifies just a tad bit more than the others.



Funny story, but I first played this game in my younger days after renting it somewhere. I recall not knowing what to do in the beginning area and getting a bit annoyed. I returned it thinking that it was nothing special. Fast forward to 2001 and I was borrowing some games from a friend. He lent me Super Punch Out, Megaman X, and yes, Super Metroid. I played through the other two first. Both quality games, especially Super Punch Out, which is still a total blast to play at any time. Then I decided to try Super Metroid again, and for whatever reason, it clicked that time. I figured out about finding hidden paths and such. I became immersed in the uniquely alien atmosphere of the game. Needless to say, I enjoyed it a great deal, and before my friend left to join to the army, he told me I could keep Super Metroid and he even left me the strategy guide. Over the years I've played through the game a number of times and my appreciation for it has only grown. It's a masterpiece of game design from beginning to end. The ultimate in 2D exploration. You really have to make use of all your abilities to find every cleverly concealed secret and each area is designed with those abilities in mind. There is virtually no wasted space in this game. Meanwhile your strength and versatility grows as you work your way to Mother Brain and an unexpectedly emotional twist in the story. When all is said and done, the game is as inspired as it is well designed. It even influenced future sidescrollers with its map mechanic and addictive approach to exploration. I couldn't ask for more and I wouldn't change a thing about it.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Chairman Kaga

There's no such thing as a perfect game. A perfect game means everything is perfect. Sorry, no such game exists.

Of course not. It's safe to assume that "perfect" in the context of this thread means closest to pefect.

May as well add another one that hasn't been mentioned yet:



Donkey Kong Country 2 improves on the original in every way. Better level designs, more varied environments and obstacles, a greater level of difficulty, and a totally awesome soundtrack. It's a classic in every respect and the peak of the DKC series for me. It has virtually no shortcomings and it's one of my all time favorite platformers.

Btw, TJ&E (ahead of its time), Earthbound (brilliantly comedic), Metroid Prime (Metroid excellence in 3D), and SoR2 (best beat 'em up I've ever played) are all personal favorites of mine as well.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Gechmir

11) Final Fantasy VI -- Nostalgia factor! Falls apart in the second half, but the first half is absolutely wonderful. They were rushed, it seems... Guh. Had promise.

12) Xenogears -- Up until the last disk? Perfection. Then it slips. But still, I can't fault it due to that slip. It did the same as FFVI and went south once winter hit, if you will.

Xenogears obviously slips. Many years pass and various events are laid out to you in hurried and uninteractive fashion via rocking chair narrations. It's painfully obvious that the second disc is rushed.

FFVI though, does not slip. The story was not about toppling the Empire. It was about hope and seeing how each character came to let go of the past and find a reason to continue pushing forward. The World of Ruin served as a compelling way to spotlight the characters and that struggle. Rather than taunt you with a doomsday device like other RPGs do, FFVI dared to have the villain succeed and then your people have to pick themselves up from defeat and try again. FFVI from the beginning is more a character-driven story than a plot-driven one. The open-ended gameplay of the second half only serves to complement the more linear and plot-driven first half.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Gechmir

Pardon me for my opinion, but I hate the world of ruin =p It changes heroines, just about. I would've preferred if it remained focused on Terra exclusively rather than changing hands to Celes. Japanese RPGs are, by nature, linear.

I didn't mean to attack you. Only to respond to the statement about the story falling apart. It's always too vague for me to accept as a justification for dismissing that entire portion of the game as sour. The same goes for the "Kefka has no motivation and therefore he sucks as a villain" position. Preference is another matter and I certainly won't debate that. I just wanted to present a perspective in which the World of Ruin is ideal so as to show that things aren't so cut and dry.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Dayvon

I too am one that has trouble with the world of ruin part of FF6. I'm not particularly sure what it is that I don't like, but I think it has to do with the non-linear nature of it. Ya know, the whole "go find the characters who are now consumed in there own little world, and convince them to fight." At the point before the ruined world, it seemed like the characters were beyond that for the most part.

I don't think they were beyond that as much as they had put their issues aside a bit because the situation demanded it. When Kefka destroys the world, each character has to find him/herself again and finally put their past problems to rest in a world that is now seemingly without hope. For me, that's the beauty of the story. Not that I'm going to try and change your mind, since I know that non-linear gameplay isn't for everyone, and FFVI doesn't exactly streamline the shift between linear and non-linear as well as Chrono Trigger does. (and it can't due to the nature of the plot twist) But for me, exploration is probably the main reason that I play any RPG, and the World of Ruin is a completist's dream in addition to spotlighting the struggles of the characters.

Originally Posted by Dayvon

And the fact that you don't even need to get alot of the "main" characters seems odd to me.

You mean to finish the game? I guess I can see why that would be a bit odd. Terra, the actual main character, does show up to guide the party to safety no matter what at least.

Originally Posted by Dayvon

This is also the point in the game where the espers giving magic abilities makes the game start to unravel a bit for me. Everyone becomes a great spell caster because of leveling up.

I guess that depends on how you feel about customization. Some people strongly prefer class-specific characters. I think I prefer a bit more customization since I found FFIV to be a bit limiting in that respect. FFVI has class restrictions to some extent with the special skills, but like in FFVII, you can essentially make everyone a jack of all trades. It's actually not as open as FFVII (FFVI has a few other class restrictions, like armor types and weaponry), which is why some who criticize FFVII for having no difference between its characters aside from limits still like FFVI.

Originally Posted by Dayvon

I dunno, I mean I love the game and have a FFIII SNES save with most (if not every) character at lvl 99, and I've played the game to death. But at the same time, the overall fulfilling feeling i got at the end was/is not very strong. And the lack of that fulfilling feeling, keeps me from wanting to play the game again.

But that's one heck of an ending (assuming you pick up every character, I guess), wouldn't you say? It's still my favorite of any game I've played.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Ooh, picking apart SOTN is one of my favorite things to do. Apart from the poor voice acting, the inverted castle is a big and empty rehash of the normal castle, with sparsely placed enemies and only a few tracks being played ad nauseum. The definition of lazy game design. Also, the transformations are a joke. You have one trivial use for an otherwise worthless wolf form, a handful for the bat form, and a couple for the mist form. The RPG elements are similarly tacked on, with a lot of worthless items floating about. Finally, the game tries to implement Super Metroid elements, but it fails at creating the same solidarity between exploration and level design. It's full of big and generally empty corridors where aside from killing an enemy or two you're left with nice backgrounds and little else. All the while the game loses the strengths of old school Castlevania (the difficulty, tight level design, and consistent platforming elements), especially Castlevania III, which I consider to be the best game in the series. So in a lot of ways, SOTN is a jack of all trades and master of none. Yet thanks to the great controls and stellar presentation outside of the voice acting, it manages to be a good game with an addictive quality to it. Just not "the best 2D sidescroller ever".

As for FFIV, I think the game is generally well-designed, but I don't know how anyone can defend the silly drama. Truly, the series didn't get that right until FFVI. (FFV is exempt from such criticism for the simple reason that it takes itself less seriously, and yes, I like FFV a bit more than FFIV, though I consider both to be among the better Final Fantasy games) Outside of Tellah, the willing suicides of FFIV don't make sense and any dramatic value is negated when you find them miraculously alive (or you don't, in which case the Babil help sequence is even more hokey). You could swear that they would simply kill characters off just to make room in the party for an upcoming member. Honestly, what inspired Yang to suddenly choose suicide for saving the party when he has a wife and country to consider? I never much bought the Cecil/Kain relationship either. I can't believe that Cecil would foolishly keep taking Kain back in after being betrayed not once, but twice. It was obvious that Kain was jealous of Cecil and Rosa's relationship and yet Cecil turns a blind eye to that. Kain is like the earliest form of the Square angsty villain and anti-hero, which wouldn't be handled right until Magus. And speaking of Rosa, that woman had the personality of a roof shingle. If not for being Cecil's girl, she'd contribute nothing to the story. That's why everyone likes Rydia whereas Rosa is just there.

Still, despite these criticisms, I think FFIV is a good game with an excellent soundtrack. But the story could stand some scrutiny for the crazy suicides in particular, even though it has a some moments of brilliance like when Cecil faces himself on Mt. Ordeals, which by itself makes the game worthwhile.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Read close enough? Everyone was going to die and Yang volunteers to take the brunt of the explosion while everyone else leaves and sad music plays. Of course it was going to be suicide. Same with Cid's suicide dive to blow a hole for the party to escape back into the upper world. He knew he wasn't coming back when he did it. Everybody thought those guys were dead for sure, which is why they're so surprised when they find them alive. Blank being petrified is different. He wasn't trying to sacrifice himself and being petrified isn't quite the same as getting killed. Plenty of times in RPGs we've had to revive petrified villagers, yes? And since you like quoting the script so much:

Cecil: Yang!

Rosa: What are you doing!?

Yang: Leave this to me! Go!

Rydia: No!

Cecil: It's gonna blow!

Yang: GO!

Yang forces Cecil's group out of the Super Cannon room.

Cecil: Yang!!

Yang: Cecil, everyone, I thank you.

Kain: Open the door!

Rydia: Yang!

Rosa: Please don't do this!

Yang: Tell my wife... ...I will always be with her.

Cecil: Yang!!!"

As for Kain being jealous of Rosa and Cecil, the game makes it obvious that he likes Rosa. That's why Kain has a "dark soul". Play the game again and watch Kain's reactions at certain points. Rosa notices his feelings at one point or another but Cecil pays them no mind. Kain is able to be controlled because he resents Cecil deep down. He shouldn't be a hero. A character with his issues wouldn't be a hero in any future FF game. They'd be a rival, like Seifer. Cecil should've seen this after being betrayed twice and told Kain to take a hike rather than put his entire group in jeopardy time and time again. Now maybe after the ending when Kain goes to try and find himself, then he could be a real hero, but only after ridding himself of his dark feelings. Here:

Rosa: Kain!?

Cecil: He's okay now. Tellah's Meteo broke Golbez's spell.

Kain: But I was still aware. Yet... Rosa...I wanted to keep you close
at any cost!

Rosa: Kain...

Kain: ...

Cecil: ...

And yes, I remember the part where they're going to take off to the moon and Cecil insists that they stay behind. It's so sudden and unexpected that he almost comes off as male chauvinist. Considering that Rydia saved them all before, you'd think that he'd see them as equals. Yes, he didn't want them harmed, but the way he did it definitely caught me by surprise. It wasn't consistent with his personality up to that point and he did it with the bluntness of a sledgehammer. Anyways, that doesn't add anything to Rosa's character.

And just for further proof that Kain wasn't hero material:

Kain: So this is the king's wish...to annihilate every summoner in this
village. ...I'm afraid we have to take care of her, too.

Cecil: WHAT!?

Kain: I know, but it's the king's orders.

Cecil: Kain! She's just a child!

Kain: You intend to defy the king?

Cecil: I refuse to continue this slaughter in the king's name!

Kain: Damn... I was afraid you'd say that. Well, I can't kill you, so I
might as well join you.

---

Kain: Opposing the mightiest kingdom in the land... We'll need allies
to survive. We have to rescue Rosa somehow, too.

Cecil: Thanks, Kain.

Kain: Save it. I'm not doing it for you.

FELIPE NO