The annual Seal Hunt

Ugh. Where to begin.

First, lay off the exclamation points! They are really annoying! And they make you look like a mental case! zomg!

Second, I agree that the McCartneys were unfortunately ill-informed about the specifics of the seal hunt. They are, as Williams said, being used by organizations like IFAW. However, to believe everything your government tells you is also unwise. I appreciate your outrage, but I think it may be misdirected.

The cute little baby seals that Paul and Heather were posing with (the white coats) will be killed in three weeks time. They won't have white coats anymore, but they weill be the same baby seals we saw on tv last night. They will be shot in the head, clubbed in the head, or ice-picked in the head. "90% killed by bullet" is not the same as "100% killed by bullet." What happens to the other 10%? I'm not sure. If we're talking 10% of a 200,000 seal quota, then that's 2000 animals killed in an uncpecified way, possibly by clubbing.

I don't like the seal hunt. I have never liked the seal hunt. I do not have very much respect for those who particiapte in it, and that is unlikely to change. On the other hand, I appreciate the necessity to cull the herd, for the sake of conservation. The population cannot be allowed to outgrow its food supply, or there will be many more seals dying a far more painful death.

What I'm trying to say is that the McCartneys were right, as was Williams. I don't believe the hunt can be completely abolished, but I do think it should be more highly regulated, monitored closely while it occurs by DFO and independant organizations.

I'd like to caution you, Neko, not to immediately take up arms in support of the 'hunters.' Honestly, the seal hunt isn't much of a hunt at all. It's not very hard to kill slow-moving juvenile seals on an ice floe. This is not hunting, but a massacre. It may be a necessary massacre, but it is not a hunt. Second, Newfoundland is changing. It is better for you to embrace this now, than to hold on to things that simply aren't there anymore. If you're expecting to make much of a living off the sea in Newfoundland, you are sadly mistaken. The province is no longer what it once was. Get an education, get a trade, get a job off the water. There is no future in this anymore. Newfoundlanders lived off the water, now they live off the government while they try to adapt to the loss of the Northern Cod. Personally, I don't see the appeal of risking life and limb anyway. Previous generations of Newfies did it because they had to; you don't have to, and if I were you, I'd be thankful for that.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Yeah, Fyodor, it'd be really great if you could, you know, ever actually PROVE anything you say.

Work on that.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Well, I suppose that's why you're a disgusting sack of excrement.

I choose to believe that most Newfoundlanders, and indeed most people, are not so. Perhaps I'm wrong. Still, it's nice to think that the majority of people are not willing to sacrifice their soul for a few dollars. See, I'm of the opinion that money doesn't justify slaughter. I see that you're American, though, so we clearly have different values.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

And I suppose you have the same values as Newfies?

Yes, I think I do, on account of me actually BEING a Newfie. Born and raised. And like I said, I don't disagree with culling the population. What worries me is the way it happens. Ideally, I'd like to see every sealing vessel accompanied by DFO and independant representatives.

And no, Neko, they will not be killing white coats, and neither Paul nor Heather claimed they would be. It is illegal to kill white coats. It is not illegal to kill them in three weeks time, when they are still babies, but no longer white. The main motivation for waiting three weeks seems to be the desire to deprive people like the McCartneys of a "legitimate" photo op. Also, they will not be fully grown in three weeks time. It takes much longer than that for a seal to mature into an adult. For all intents and purposes, they will still be juvenile, on the cusp of infancy. Just old enough to be grey instead of white.

Like I said before, I support the culling of the seal population, if and when it is done in a proper, humane manner, and if it is necessary (which, at this point in time, it is; it was not always so, however ie: mid-sixties, seventies). I do not believe that it is monitored closely enough. Neko, show me someone out in the woods clubbing a moose to death, and maybe then that arguement will have merit. I appreciate conservation issues; what I don't like is the Newfoundland attitude of "How dare these goddamn celebrities tell us what to do?" As a culture, Newfoundlanders have a tendancy to be a tad defensive and, dare I say, a little STUCK IN THEIR WAYS. Have an open mind, listen to what others have to say, and don't automatically assume that the way we've always done it is the way it should always be done. Should we abolish the hunt? Maybe not. But perhaps it's time to start looking into alternative ways to exploit the seal population for our own gain. At the end of the day that is, after all, what it's all about.

Amanda mentioned that the majority of Newfoundlanders were insulted by the McCartneys. I wasn't, nor were quit a few people I know. We are a minority, however, who are afraid to speak out. If you're a Newfie, you damn well better LOVE seal slaughter, or you're in a hell of a lot of trouble. Danny Williams was, in some respects, mis-representing the people of the province by claiming that he was speaking for everyone. He certainly wasn't speaking for me; I'd love to find an alternative to sealing, if the government was willing to look. No one in Canada is going to touch this issue, because the uproar and outrage from Newfoundland will be immediate and violent. The cod are gone, FPI might as well give in to the final death throes, and half the population of the province has moved to Alberta. Take away sealing, and this place will errupt. I wish, I really, really do, that Newfoundland could get away from its past. It's nothing to be ashamed of, it was great while it lasted, but now it's over. Move on. Why is it so hard for this province to do? Neko? Amanda? Explain please, because I don't get it. Natural resources? So what. Build some infrastructure that doesn't center around fish or molluscs. There are businesses slowly cropping up, but its taking an awfully long time. I know an IT company is no fish plant, but come on. Maybe when the older population retires, those young workers remaining in the province can make something here that doesn't require a boat. Meanwhile, I'll sit in a call centre with my Bachelors degree and wait until its my turn to go to Fort MacMurray.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Ok, I'll respond to Neko's now, Amanda's tomorrow, as I want to go to sleep and answering Amanda is more complicated and requires more thought.

Their fur may be ready, Neko, but they are not. At the age they are killed, most seals will not have entered the water for the first time. They are hardly in a position to make a swim for it.

Somone dragged a moose to death, eh? And I bet everyone interviewed for that NTV segment said pretty much the same thing. "Well, you know, it's not pretty, and it's not nice, but it IS necessary. Dragging a moose to death is our right as Newfoundlanders." I'm willing to bet good money this was not the case. I'm willing to bet, actually, that the entire province was sickened by it, as were the SPCA, Humane Society, etc. Why? Because it's a sickening thing to do. We are at the top of the food chain, yes. That gives us dominance, but it also gives us responsibility. We are, if you'll pardon my Franciscan zeal, stewards of the earth. We choose the time of life and the time of death; in between, we have a duty (zomg Wee Free Men. Terry Pratchett being relevant). Also, many moose are indeed killed by cars. Not purposely, though. These moose tragedies also result in human tragedies. Therefore moose= direct harm to human beings, which means moose hunt every year. I can't remember the last time I heard of someone being killed in a seal-automobile collision. Your arguement Neko is, again, missing a critical factor: relevance. Several hundred men clubbing baby seals on a yearly basis for 500 years ON PURPOSE is not equal to accidental collisions, or one nut job tying a bull to his bumper.

I never suggested sealers hunt because they love it. Not many people with a soul could love it (here I go with religiosity again. Maybe the term I was looking for was "morals). You took me too literally. I meant that, as a Newfie, if you're anti-seal hunt, then you're seen as pro-mainland. This is not always the case. Because of fear, people like me, who hate the hunt, sit down and shut up. (As a side note, the majority of the people flying the pink, white and green weren't even alive before NL joined Canada. It's easy to bitch about how downtrodden you are, I suppose, in a country like Canada. If we were our own island nation we'd be dirt poor and still a colony right now. Or, possibly, a part of the US, a fate much worse than moritorium. Let's not go getting all Quebec here, please).

The vast majority of sealers are off-season fisherman. You know how much a crab fisherman can make in the span of three weeks? $50,000 even in a bad season. Most fisherman in Newfoundland fish several species a year. If one stint of three weeks provides assets equivalent to a yearly middle-class income, explain how a seal quota is necessary? It isn't always. People have to accept that. In some cases, it's simply done out of greed. Yeah, I really need that new 4x4.

I'm glad you think analysing NLs economic problems is so simple. What you fail to take into account is the goverment assistance offered to fisherman and plant workers after the fall of the cod stocks. "Here's some money, Skipper Joe; go learn a trade." 'NO.' So, you see, it's not that people can't learn; it's that they won't. And maybe they have a right to be pissed off. Maybe they have a right not to try something new, after fishing all their lives. I know I'd be pissed if it was me. But there's a point where you have to say to yourself "Do I want to live like this for the rest of my life?" Starting over is a daunting task, but Newfie's are reknowned for their tenacity. At least, they were until 1992. Where did that go?

I was speaking idiomatically.

No, really. Are you serious? -_-

Yes, I imagine the man who DRAGGED AN ANIMAL BEHIND HIS CAR UNTIL IT DIED was probably charged. Did you miss the huge amounts of sarcasm in my initial comments? Did you miss this?

"I'm willing to bet good money this was not the case. I'm willing to bet, actually, that the entire province was sickened by it, as were the SPCA, Humane Society, etc. Why? Because it's a sickening thing to do. We are at the top of the food chain, yes. That gives us dominance, but it also gives us responsibility."

Either you aren't reading what I'm actually saying, or your father should have used his fishing license money for his own education, as yours was clearly a lost cause. Clubbing happens in the seal hunt. Video has been taken of this happening. It was standard practice until very recently. Your claim that clubbers will be charged is patently false because, a) there are no real authorties on the ice to catch them doing it, and b) even if there were, clubbing is not illegal. Is it any less disgusting than dragging a moose to death? No. The man who killed the moose was charged, however. The sealers will not be.

One seal crawling into a road in St. Mary's isn't the same thing as the dozens of annual moose-automobile collisions that happen in Newfoundland every year. One seal accident in 60 years does not equal thousands of moose accidents.

I am refering to an entirely different program which offers money SPECIFICALLY and ONLY for the education of former fishery workers. Not their families. Not their cousin Billy. It does not give them money, it gives them tuition. If they choose not to take advantage of the program, they get neither money nor tuition. Clearly, money they DID NOT GET is not being used for house payments or their children's education. It comes in the form of tuition vouchers which go to the school, be it CONA, MUN, whatever. It is not cash. You are referring to TAGS and the license buy-back programs that started in '92 and continued until a few years ago. Find me some statistics on the seal hunt, please. Prove to me that these people who used imaginary money on car payments are killing seals. Otherwise, stop making such vague and unsupported statements. Also, read what you're replying to BEFORE you reply.

Finally, I'd like you to comment on this, because I would really like to hear what you have to say:

"The vast majority of sealers are off-season fisherman. You know how much a crab fisherman can make in the span of three weeks? $50,000 even in a bad season. Most fisherman in Newfoundland fish several species a year. If one stint of three weeks provides assets equivalent to a yearly middle-class income, explain how a seal quota is necessary?"

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Also keep in mind that the "human overfishing" you're talking about isn't actually done by Newfoundlanders. It's done by Europeans, thxsomuch.

(Sorry for my absence from the debate; I got sick, but mostly I got bored).

FELIPE NO