Religion: What it means to you

I'm an athiest, and to me religion is just something else for me to joke about and inadvertently insult people with.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by LordsSword

I get this allot when dealing with people about religion and it brings me back to the original point of this thread.
Religion keeps me trying when others give up. It means discipline, perseverance, wisdom and compassion when all that is outside of religion lacks such things. Above all, it is my source for humility. The texts I turn to remind me of my place when reaching out to others. When people respond to me in this way I am further humbled by the fact that it takes more than what I am to change someone else's heart & mind, so I turn to my faith in prayer for those that I come in contact with.

Why can't you do any of that without religion?

Most amazing jew boots

Regarding the '10 Commandments', I think this sums them up pretty well.

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by LordsSword

I vote and go for the person who prays. I figure that person has a humble character and doesnt think thay are all high and mighty.

Question: If you could, would you vote Bush next election?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by LordsSword

This is true. I just pointed out that when a person says they follow the book anyone can correct that individual and help them stay on the path they said they are on. This is harder to do with a "grey area" oriented person. Without a written standard excuses can be made for anything.

Isn't the Bible pretty much full of contradictory commandments? If they were found to have mounds of dead hookers in their basement they could simply claim that they were witches and as such he was scripturally justified in their murders.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

Dennett is incorrect. My belief that there is a heaven is built upon my knowledge of God which comes form a Bible. I have dealt with suffering people and tough circumstances and witnessed miracles in answered prayer and fortitude in people that are in constant pain.

Pretty much all religions make these claims; what makes your so special? I know that in my life amazingly lucky things have happened to me, but I never felt a need to put it down to anything but dumb luck.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

When you get under the hood and see the engine of faith at work it makes you a believer that its founded on something real. This is the reason why I pointed to my personal heros in Martin Luther King Jr. & Mother Teresa. They were around for a long time and experienced too much to just right off as so much wishful thinking.

Get ready for such an experience. Remember a Christian is praying for you.

There have been many incredible Atheists who have made amazing contributions to mankind even though they had no faith in some greater being.

Some noted Atheists include - Albert Einstein, Charles Darwin, Carl Sagan, Benjamin Franklin and Sigmund Freud to name but a few.

Just because someone has a belief in something and then does good work, that does not mean that what they believe in is real.

Remember an Atheist is thinking for you.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

Sorry it took so long to get to this question. No there are no contradictions in the Bible.

So if I encountered a witch should I let her live (Exodus 20:13) or kill her (Exodus 22:18)?

Quote:

Darwin's evolutionary theory, which is at the root of atheism

I would say that people like Paul-Henri Thiry were at the root of atheism far more than Darwin.

"If we go back to the beginning we shall find that ignorance and fear created the gods; that fancy, enthusiasm, or deceit adorned or disfigured them; that weakness worships them; that credulity preserves them, and that custom, respect and tyranny support them in order to make the blindness of men serve its own interests."

He managed to come up with all that before Darwin was even born.

Evolutionary theory has nothing to do with Atheism whatsoever. It is possible to be an atheist and not believe in evolution, or to be a theist and believe in evolution.

Quote:

If evolution is a law of nature, lying, stealing & murder is in the long run a benefit so long as the person who is good at it benefits and their progeny benefit from it.

From talkorigins.opg

1. Evolution is descriptive. It can be immoral only if attempting to accurately describe nature is immoral.

2. Any morals derived from evolution would have to recognize the fact that humans have evolved to be social animals. In a social setting, cooperation and even altruism lead to better fitness (Wedekind and Milinski 2000). The process of evolution leads naturally to social animals such as humans developing ethical principles such as the Golden Rule.

3. Some bad morals, such as eugenics and social Darwinism, are based on misunderstandings of evolution. Therefore, it is important that evolution be taught well to negate such misunderstandings.

4. Despite claims otherwise, creationism has its own problems. For one thing, it is founded on religious bigotry, so the foundation of creationism, by most standards, is immoral.

5. Probably the most effective weapon against bad morals is exposure and publicity. Evolution (and science in general) is based on a culture of making information public.

6. Scientists are their own harshest critics. They have developed codes of ethical behavior for several circumstances, and they have begun to talk about a general ethics (Rotblat 1999). Creationists have nothing similar.

7. Some people feel better about themselves by demonizing others. Those people who are truly interested in morals begin by looking for immorality within themselves, not others.

And also from our old friend Thiry

"It would be useless and almost unjust to insist upon a man's being virtuous if he cannot be so without being unhappy. So long as vice renders him happy, he should love vice."

Quote:

I have centuries of evidence that answered prayer has been proven.

And it couldn't possible be coincidence.

Quote:

Only answered prayer could account for Jewish persistence over thousands of years.

What about the Native Americans, the Basques and Aborigines? All these people have been discriminated against and persecuted, yet none of them were Christian and managed to survive as long as us Jews.

Quote:

What you should recognize is that the Christian example is just as successful despite the belief that their methods (such as prayer) are not a respected tool for effecting results.

Dr. King and other Christians didn't just pray, they actually went and actively tried to change things. Maybe if they had just sat in a room and changed the world through prayer there might be some truth to this claim, but they could have achieved similar results without prayer, just as atheists have.

[quote]Growing up with atheists for parents I saw that they had no purpose other than getting high on drugs, abusing themselves & mistreating others.[quote]

You're entire basis for 'Atheists are evil' seems to be two people, which is hardly representatvie

How ya doing, buddy?

Quote:

If you really want to know ask Jesus Christ to show you the answer.

Yo Christ, get your ass down here because I've got a witch and I don't know what to do with her.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by GhaleonQ

Duo and magic, please, drop any pretense to being theological scholars. If you haven't the basic knowledge of the Old and New Covenants (something, mind you, that a 3rd grade Vacation Bible School attendee could describe at length), you should probably take a less hostile and haughty tone.

I'm Jewish so screw your 'New' Covenant gentile, and you should probably take a less hostile and haughty tone unless you want to incur the wrath of our Zionist banks.

Originally Posted by GhaleonQ

kinky, even within the Old Covenant Israeli society, I see no contradiction at all. Whatever your ill-considered opinion on the difference between "murder" and "divinely-ordered execution" may be, they are clearly different concepts.

Perhaps you could tell me where in the Bible it makes the distinction between murder and 'divinely-ordered execution'. From what I see, the only difference is semantic.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by GhaleonQ

Throughout those Hebrews' attempts to clear their promised land from other tribes', Jehovah (as you know) ordered the decimation of their rivals.

And he couldn't have possibly brokered a peaceful resolution. Nope, it had to be genocide and nothing else.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by GhaleonQ

Are...are you serious, magic? We're speaking of a period thousands of years before Jesus' birth. Archaeological digs and anthropological analysis had attributed child sacrifice, ritualistic orgies, and organized duels for kingship to some of the conquered civilizations. I don't think that a ancient Yalta was really an option, eh

And the Jews were so much better than that with their genocide and their 'kill everyone, even the women and children' policies. Also, while some of the religions of the time were into that freaky shit, do you seriously believe that every single other religion was that fucked up?

And regarding child sacrifice, didn't God once order someone to sacrifice their son to him in order to make a ham-fisted metaphor?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Quote:

Because I have noticed that your religion-->http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/court36.htm is bankrupt of hope and those that are devout to it have demonstrated that they are bent on taking hope from others.

What do you mean 'bankrupt of hope'. My life is full of hope, but tempered with realism. This is like saying that mathematicians take hope from others when they show how unlikely it is that they will win the lottery.

Quote:

See what I mean? No hope and frankly a true lived out testimony of the core of atheism.

Maybe if you answered my question I wouldn't have had to go and ask the guy for advice.

Quote:

I'm just curious why the atheists here haven't stated how their belief system makes their life a "good" one.

Atheism has nothing to do with morality, it is simply a term used to describe people who don't believe in a 'god'. If atheism is my belief system then my hobby is not playing WoW. If you want to discuss morality I would describe myself as utilitarian crossed with moral absolutism. I don't need anything other than common sense to know what is right and wrong.

Quote:

Answer for me please the basis for pursing the path of being a productive member of society.

Empathy.

Quote:

If I was a weaker person my feelings would have been hurt by their comments, which it seems to me quite intentional.

If someone espouses and belief, and then constantly ducks or evades my questions and gives no good reasons for their belief I tend to lose respect for them.

Quote:

As I stated before I grew up with atheists that just didnt care about much and I see in some of the representatives here the same attributes (negative outlook, excessive pride, low opinion of other views, violent reactions) that I was accustomed to as a child.

I suppose your parents didn't play the sousaphone either. Does that mean that all non-sousaphone players are arseholes?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

My bible says everyone deserves respect.

Again, see my point about contradictions in the Bible. One minute it's saying 'love thy neighbor', and the next it's saying that homosexuality, an sexual preference that harms nobody, is an abomination.

Quote:

If you are serious with your questions, please take a moment and lay down your own standards and be considerate of the person you are asking.

I was perfectly considerate when I first asked, but you've yet to give me a decent answer. Maybe next time I'll finally get a straight forward answer, as I found your orignial response to be insulting.

Quote:

Last time I checked atheists depend on the data available to make their conclusions.

Again, atheism has NOTHING to say about morality, just about the existence of a god; much like sousaphone playing has nothing to do with morality but everything to do which looking like a fool while playing annoying music.

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by LordsSword

Prior to my statement of "no hope" I didn't see any signs of any, so I put that out there to goad you into showing your deal.

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

An atheist is simply someone who has read the bible, considered its claims, and rejected them on insufficient evidence.

I would say that is the definition of a non-Christian. I would define an atheist as anybody who understands what 'burden of proof' and 'evidence' means.

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by Interrobang

Not particularly. Atheists put forth the idea that God does not exist. Where is the evidence for this assertion?

Atheists say that there is no evidence for a god, just as there is no evidence for Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny or Russel's teapot, and so if there is no evidence for a thing then it shouldn't be assumed that the thing exists.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

Isn't there equal evidence towards the nonexistence of something outside the universe as evidence towards the existence of something outside the universe?

What evidence is this?

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

I think you're forgetting a little bit of what seems to be human nature to have faith in thins that don't seem probable. It's the whole reason a character like Spock was so novel and alien.

I'm afraid I don't understand what this has to do with my argument, could be so kind as to explain.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

None for both.

Well then since there is no evidence for it, then it is irrelevant whether there is evidence against it or not. Again, burden of proof is on those who think that there is something outside the universe rather than those who think there is nothing outside the universe thanks to good old William of Ockham.

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

It goes back to an earlier post you made: "I would say that is the definition of a non-Christian. I would define an atheist as anybody who understands what 'burden of proof' and 'evidence' means." I'd just say an atheist is someone who has faith in a different concept than typical religious people.

Atheism is based on reason rather than faith.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

What sort of reason believes that we can understand what's going on outside our universe?

Again, you are contending that there is something outside our universe, a position that I have seen no evidence for, and until there is any evidence for it a nothing serves just as well as a something and requires no unproven assumptions; however if you have any evidence please post it. If there is something outside our universe, is there any reason why we shouldn't be able to understand it?

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

And, as I was trying to intimate with the faith statement, talking about burden of proof with proving the unprovable is slightly ridiculous.

I'm afraid I really didn't get that from your posts, as the first one said that people have always have faith in the improbable, and the second one said that the only difference between atheists and others were that they had faith in different concepts (I'm still not too sure what you meat by this, what concepts do atheists have faith in?)

If something is unprovable then there is simply no reason to even think about it, for example there is no point thinking about whether the only reason the laws of physics work is because of an undetectable race of beings who make them work through a serious of magic spells, and if they do something wrong then the universe will instantly turn inside out.

Quote:

I dunno about the rest of you (since I guess most are Christians) but of all the religions, the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path of Buddhism make the MOST sense to me.

I must confess I have a soft-spot for Discordianism.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

I'm not contending there's something outside the universe; I'm stating that there's no way to know, and to have such vehement hatred towards people who may think there is borders upon absurdity to me.

I don't know where you got the impression that I have any hate towards people who hold that position, as far as I am aware I have been entirely civil in my posts, however if you feel otherwise please point out where I have been less than polite. The only feeling I have towards people who think that there is something outside the universe is confusion, since as far as I am aware there is absolutely no evidence to support such a view.

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

Aren't there entire fields of mathematics dedicated to the study of equations and problems which are considered impossible to solve?

I'm afraid I wouldn't know much about that sort of thing, however if there are fields like that I assume there is some benefit to it in a mathematical context. However in my opinion to speculating on whether there is something outside our universe is the same as speculating on the idea that we are merely brains in vats.

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

If unsolvable things are worthless in thinking about, why are the fields of philosophy and ethics so ingrained into our society?

In philosophy and ethics people present evidence for their beliefs and then debate on various points, but in the case of whether something exists outside the universe, there is no evidence either way and I doubt there ever will be, so it is incorrect to claim that they are the same.

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

Sure, it may not necessarily be possible to prove the existence of a god, but I at least hope you'd realize the side benefits that people can obtain through introspection and self-study while engaging in their quest for religious meaning.

I don't see why people can't engage in introspection and self-study without religion, I know I don't need a religious quest in order to gain insight in to myself.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

I'm personally still philosophically stuck on the brains in a vat problem. I don't get how any philosopher has thought they've solved it yet.

It is the very definition of a unanswerable and therefore unimportant question.

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

Even in debates of what is absolutely good/evil, right/wrong, or those kinds of things?

The vast majority of philosophers believe that the question of morality is an inherently subjective subject and that there is no such thing as absolute good and evil, hence things like utilitarianism.

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

I don't either, but I feel if it helps them find a better life, then how can I say it's not a good thing? I mean, just as there are religious people that turn non-religious, there are non-religious people that will turn religious. Maybe we just haven't felt that divine spark yet.

If it makes them feel better than fine, but they shouldn't go around pretending that there is any logical basis for their beliefs, let their beliefs contradict things like common sense or scientific discovery, or try to inflict their beliefs on anyone else.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Didn't Moses make people worship an idol of a snake later?

Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people. The Lord said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Capo

If you're going to use that bullshit "logic", you can't prove anything to be fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Capo

So you're saying there's no point in arguing with you because you have a flawless Wikipedia defense. Ok.

Nope, I'm saying that if you want to be completely skeptical about everything then you can't really prove anything. Just look at brain-in-a-vat, or last thursdayism. However since things like these examples lacks the ability to be falsified there's no problem in dismissing them. However it is inaccurate to call the logic behind it 'bullshit logic'.

FELIPE NO

Quote:

Bible breathing Christian worldview here, returning to the scene, I have an update to share.

I have found my Fath experience to be an incredible source of support.
In dealing with tremendous difficulties in living as of late I have found that having a church + God believing family & friends a source of refuge and stregnth.

In my Christian experience I haven't stood alone in my life. Not only do I have people who currently stand with me using the same play book (the bible), I also have histories of past believers and their legacy passed on to me.

Can the non-christians here say the same?

You seem to be asking if non-christians have gained support from being christians, which seems to be an oxymoron. Personally, I have never felt like I needed support which I couldn't find from non-religious sources.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

Atheism is the denial of anything existing outside of our realm of observation. Are you arguing that because we don't see something it can't exist? How very solipsist of you.

Athiesm is a term that describes somebody who does not believe in God or deities. I say that if there is no evidence that something exists then there is no reason to believe it exists, not that it can't exist.

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

I don't believe in any sort of supernatural being, though I don't see any reason why I should reject the possibility that one should exist.

It's also a possibility that a Nigerian prince really did e-mail me and ask me to help him transfer his money.

Jam it back in, in the dark.