For or against?

OK since I am tired of catering to the weak arguments of some anti-gun idiots that are too fucking stupid to stay on topic in my firearms thread about what firearms the population of GFF would like to own we shall come here and listen to their argument in the proper place.

So are you for or against firearms and why? Maybe because someone told you to think that way or maybe because you just don't like others having the right to protect their family and home? Sooooo babble away with all the overdone arguments you want.

How ya doing, buddy?

SEE DEVO IS A SANE PERSON!!! WHY CAN'T ALL THE ANTI-GUN NUTS UNDERSTAND THAT?!?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Ethics would indicate NOT to come into my home when I am there to rob it or do harm to me. So don't use ethics when it comes to criminals CAL, it doesn't work. They will never abide by our laws or any set of reasoning other than they want what you have and will take it from you by force. Ever wonder why police are armed at all times? For their protection, the same reason why I have firearms in my home. I hope I never have to use them but in the off chance I do, I know that my family and I will be save. CAL if you think I give one bit of damn for that piece of shit would tried to hurt my family you are a fool.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Minion

Some people are not interested in harming or killing anyone. Poverty leads to desparation, but not necessarily to homicidal tendancies. There's a good chance that the guy who is stealing your stuff has a hard time getting by in life and just needs to make a quick buck for whatever reason.

I'm not saying it's right for him to do that, but he doesn't deserve to die.

I've been poor and homeless before, Minion, so don't give me shit. There are places you can get a warm bed at night and a hot meal in the day. Besides the fact that there are many food banks (churches) that offer free food to the poor when they can't afford to feed themselves. So I consider what you said be an excuse, something I will not accept as a reason why they are stealing my possessions .

This isn't to say I am just going to shoot someone for stepping into my home illegally. The only time it is justifiable to shoot an intruder is if they are attacking you or point a firearm at you. Otherwise I'd just corner the guy and make him lay down on his face while I hog tie him at gun point while I wait for the cops to show up and take this person away.

Rock: I don't know what you are talking about your post being deleted...

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Minion their situation doesn't have to be the same as mine, but just because they choose to be out there doesn't make it right for them to steal, nor will it make me feel any pity for these people when they try and steal my things. They made the decision to come into my home, they will pay the concequences of their actions for invading my home.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Rock

I'm still going by the logic that less guns mean less crime. How can you even refute this? I mean, criminals aren't exactly born as criminals and you can't really predict who becomes a criminal. It might just as well be this Gumby person who claims he needs a shitload of guns to "protect himself".

What kind of a stupid argument is saying that "criminals" will be getting their guns illegally nonetheless!? I'm willing to bet that most of these killings have been carried out with legally purchased and owned weaponry.

With more guns being publically available, the probability of abuse is much higher than in a society with strict gun control.

I suggest you do some research before you come back, you seem to be rather misinformed.

Minion: If you think people will not kill each other when there is a lack of firearms you are lacking a gasp of reality because if that were true countries that banned the use of firearms would have ZERO murders, but the simple fact is that isn't true.

Bradylama: I have a quote for you, since you seem to have your head screwed on straight. "An armed man is a citizen: an unarmed man is a subject." - Unknown

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

When I was in middle school they offered a gun safety coarse and at the end of it I received a gun safety card... before I left that middle school the program was coming to an end. This is what happens when you have people in charge of a school who are Anti-gun; the basics involved in using a firearm are not taught to our children.

FELIPE NO

CetteHamsterLa: Hitting someone over and over with a baseball bat to kill them is murder. Shooting someone because they are shooting at you is self defense. You make it sound like I as someone who wants a gun to defend my home that I am just out to kill any jackass who breaks into my home. You are dead wrong. I know when a gun necessary and when it is not. Anyone who has been properly taught about firearms knows this as well. This is another reason why our children should receive gun training.

peeack, all American children should be taught respect for a firearm. You seem to think they should never touch them which is stupid. I fired a 30/30 when I was 8. That gun has a lot of kick for a child that age and I have always had a healthy respect for guns. This prevents kids from wanting to play with something that is very much not a toy.

PUG1911: You make it sound like every time someone breaking into a home that the people who are armed will kill this person. That is not the case, if I have to draw a weapon on someone who has broken into my home I would not fire unless it was warranted, ie they have their own gun pointed at me, they try and charge me, or any other aggressive action for that matter. If they turn and run, that is the end of it and I will leave them to the cops to catch them. Gun owners are not cold blooded killers like so many people like to make us out to be. My primary use for a firearm would be target practice, a fine use of a firearm. I also like to hunt, again another use for a firearm that is not used against another human being. But do not think that I will hesitate when some shitbag violates my rights that I will not stand up for myself.

NovaX: I can kill you with just about anything. A sword for example is designed to kill people, a gun however can be designed to do more than. You act as though all guns are used to kill people, the simple fact is that very few of the guns sold in the US are used in violent crimes.

How ya doing, buddy?

A sword was designed explicitly for fighting with other humans. Firearms however can be designed for hunting as well as weapons of war. So please do not twist my words.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

David I thought they used long spears for that... I could be mistaken though.

MeTheGefling: I started this thread to get them out of my DD thread on firearms.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by CetteHamsterLa

I was just clarifying the meaning of that statement to david not making a comment that all guns are used for murder. It's simply easier and takes less commitment to kill someone with a gun is all. Which could potentially make someone already inclined to kill more likely to. In say a home defense situation even if you were needing to fend them off with a bat while it is an inferior weapon you have to admit that you can generally stop a person without killling them while there's less of a guarantee of that with a gun.


Hell I'm not even against guns I just don't believe thay're as necessary or as much of a solution to some problems as soem people try to make it. The whole every problem looks liek a nail when all you have a hammer saying causes problems when people replaces hammer with gun. And I've known enough people who seem to feel that way to at the very least make me uncomfortable with just any idiot beign able to get one.

Yes I see your point but it does not discourage me from having the desire of owning a firearm. I have received a lot of training with weapons, both from the civi world and from the military. I know how and when to use a weapon to defend my family and I. This is why I am very pro gun ed in school. If more people were properly educated on firearms we'd have less accidents, particularly with children.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Rock

Then how about you inform me, then? Honestly, I'd like to see some facts presented to this discussion and solid proof that legally purchased and owned guns would never be used for murder.

Rock, I suggested that you do some research on this matter before you continued this debate. Also no one in their right mind would say that no legally purchased guns would be used in crime. That

These were all found in a 2 minute google search.
Statics
Lowest violent crime rate in 30 years. Gun ownership is up.
1999 state comparison of crime rates
American Enterpise Institute for Public Policy Research

There were about 500,000 guns sold last year. Last year there were only about 31,200 violent crimes that involved guns. This does not take into account all of the guns that were sold in the past 100 years that are still in current circulation of the gun market. You do the math; VERY few of the guns on the market are actually used in violent crimes. Then when you look at the fact that our crime rates are going down to 30 year record lows after out assault weapon ban was lifted while the Great Britain which completely outlawed handguns in 1997 have sky rocketing crime rates.

A lot of good information

You wanted hard facts Rock, there they are. I'm sure there is much more information out there.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by jsphweid

I didn't feel like reading the entire thread, but I read the first page or so.

Here is my opinion... I live on a farm of 1000 acres and we fire guns for hunting animals or for sport. I think that guns like shotguns/rifles/etc. are just fine. However I think pistols and military fully automatics are NOT! I live in a rural town of 628 and I have yet to see someone hunt with a pistol or an M-16!
The only incidents we here about handgun crimes are in cities. The people of NYC don't take Friday off and go hunting for elk somewhere in NY state with their concealed pistol, but when they want to feel superior (for whatever reason) they might be inclined to take it or even worse, use it!
Sometimes when I am really angery at someone and I'm talking to them and they are making me extremely pissed, I think, "If I had a pistol, would I shoot this person in the face?" Some times I really think about it, but 5 minutes later I would regret it and the decision for the rest of my life!
I don't know how I would argue on a basis of self defense. Using guns for the purpose of killing someone just gets to me.
It's kind of like the 2nd Sabrina the Teenage Witch episode, Bundt Friday. Jenny says, "I know the world would be alot better if everyone told the truth, but we all know we can't stop someone from lieing."
In this analogy, we can agree that just because you can't tell someone to stop lieing and tell the truth (by using truth sprinkles on their Bundt cakes!!!!) doesn't mean that we can just all lie and not feel any regret from it. Just like lieing is considered a bad thing (which it is!) and a sin for all of your Christian-heads, carrying concealed handguns and military special wepons shouldn't be aloud without a proper excuse (military or whatever).

Thanks,
Joseph

I'm not sure I can really take you seriously with a "Sabrina the Teenaged Witch" avatar :/ "Christian-heads"?!? wtf is wrong with you? awwh NVM.

Double Post:

Originally Posted by PUG1911

I guess it really depends on where you get your numbers. I saw a figure that Canada has a 50% higher crime rate than the US. But by this link: http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/011218/d011218b.htm there seems to be more agravated assaults, homicides, robberies per capita in the US. Canada's crime rate seems higher for breaking and entering, vehicle theft, and arson. While these are all lumped into the 'violent crimes' category, they are hardly equivalent in terms of violence. Homicide and Aggravated assault are clearly more violent than the theft related crimes.

So, I'm not saying that the pro-gun camp's numbers are wrong, just that they don't match those from Statistics Canada.

Some types of crime the US has higher numbers than in the UK but we are still on a significant downward trend while many countries that ban or heavily restrict guns are on a sharp upward trend with their crime rates.

I was speaking idiomatically.

At least in my area of the country the majority (90+%) of violent crimes with a gun are committed by people who are into a number of other things that are less than legal, drugs and gangs being two examples.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Pathetic. If you really trust your lives to the federal government then so be it, but that is a very foolhardy thing to do considering the track records of the governments in power now across the world.

I love how your retort Arrowhead is that because it doesn't matter any more. What makes you so sure about that?

Dead Horse++ brings up a good point, why shouldn't I have the right to own a firearm? It is a right guaranteed by our constitution, which why I find it funny that all the foreigners are the ones telling us that we can't or shouldn't have guns. Maybe a touch of jealousy at our rights? I don't know, but the simple fact is if you are not American then you really have no say in what we choose to own or allow our people to own.

FELIPE NO

I agree that there are examples for either case but take Britain for example, even before they completely banned handguns they have had incredibly low crime rate involving guns. So they are a terrible example of what happens when you completely ban weapons like that. A lot of the crime problems in the United States stem from problems that have nothing to do with gun control. Take California for example, they have some of the harshest gun control laws in the United States yet they continue to have horrible crime. California has a large illegal alien problem which I am sure contributes to their crime rates.

Another issue is the education of the public about firearms; far too many people these days seem to be completely ignorant about firearms assuming that they are only used to kill people. This is especially true with the knee jerk reactions that happen in areas where a recent killing(s) have been committed with guns.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by PUG1911

Killing animals, killing people, and practicing.

True, people have knee jerk reactions about them, but I don't see how education about guns will make people think that they are used for anything but the three things listed. All it might do for your cause is to get people to marginalize the impact that guns have on violence. The most people can take away from the education is the impression that the weapons are only a very minor factor, and best ignored.

It'll always be hard to comfort people who have just been exposed to shootings. "Guns only killed a *few* people, I mean, geez, put it in perspective." might work fine for those of us that haven't been affected by it recently. But can you imagine it having any effect in a situation like Columbine after their shootings? People don't want to hear that, they want someone/something to blame, wether it's legit or a scapegoat.

Most gun owners will never have to even point a gun at another human being let alone kill them. The primary use of any firearm that is used outside of war is sport shooting, i.e. hunting, skeet shooting, competition shooting, etc. I don't care if these people want something to blame to think that because less than 1/2% of guns in the United States are used in crimes that the rest of the 99.5% should be taken away is retarded.

Also for those who are outside of the United States, what makes you think that the majority of Americans don't want to have the right to own guns? Don't you think that if there was a large enough movement to get ride of them that they would be gone? But in reality that isn't how it is, we have restriction of how people go about legally buying guns because most people are smart enough to see the sense in that, but the majority of the pressure to get ride of guns comes from a few people who spread lies, i.e. Cop killer bullets as an example. Any sensible American would see that getting ride of our rights is not a smart idea, as chances are you will never get those rights back.

Double Post:

Originally Posted by Bradylama

Calling America ethnically diverse is a laugh and a half. Maybe in the border states, and the big cities, but by and large, you won't find Black people outside of the south, and you won't find Poles in Washington state.

Aside from Chinks and aboriginees, though, what else does Australia have?

That isn't true. Here in Oregon we have a large population of Asians and Russians. I see black people all the time, not in the same numbers as you do in the south but it isn't like you make it out to be that they all stay in the same place.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Skexis, we have amended the constitution before. However the right to bear arms was added in the second amendment. Why amend something just to turn around and remove it?

From the way most of the anti gun people would have you believe is that every gun is a terrible danger to everyone around it, especially children because they want to play at the fears of parents. But the statistics don't really match what a lot of these anti-gun groups like to say. There are by far more responsible gun owners than there are wackos out there shooting people.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Skexis, have you ever actually read the literature that was used as the basis for the assault weapon ban? It was the same as most of the other literature that speaks out against guns, it is very vague, sometimes containing conflicting data, and full of very bias numbers.

Brandylama: Second Amendment?

Double Post:

Originally Posted by Bradylama

The Right to Bear Arms wasn't added to the constitution, it was an article of the original Bill of Rights. =/

The only Constitutional Ammendment that's been repealed, as far as I know, was Prohibition.

The Constitution was ratified before the bill of rights was written.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Dead Horse++ you almost sound like an Oregonian...

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Arrowhead go back and look at my posts. I posted 4 article links about record low crime rates in the US that continue to drop each year even after our assault weapon ban was lifted.

That or just do a simple google search, you will get your proof.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Ironic as it is, that safety from both sides comes from completely different motives, freedom over another social dependence on the government for protection.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

You completely missed the point, Manis Tricuspis. I am well aware of the fuction of the military as I am a part of it. Also I was speaking more of police than the military.

FELIPE NO

lol you guys are funny.

No I was refering to the fact that people who are pro-gun want the ability to defend themselves rather, than like the anti-gun people, being very dependant on the cops to defend themselves...

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Wow someone who actually uses references in PP, props to you Pez!

I agree that there should be some regulation and control as to who can own a firearm (i.e. people convicted of a felony, history of violence, etc) and I as a citizen am willing to pay the price (taxes) for those accidents for the continued right to own guns, though I believe if we spent that money on education of our youth about guns we wouldn't have so many accidents. Oregon for example has the second best funded education system in the United States yet they have made gun education in public schools a no-no with in the last 10 years. I personally recieved a hunters safety course in 6th grade that involved learning those basic skills on an air rifle. We all took guns very seriously and didn't play around with them.

Jam it back in, in the dark.