The Immigration Protests

I just heard on the radio that Vicente Fox has threatened to sue America if we try to guard our own border. I'm looking on the net to see if I can find a source to this claim. I swear this guy has to be mildly retarded to think that making threats against us will get him anywhere.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I have no idea how he plans to do so. From the way they make it sound, he plans on suing us in our own courts.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I guess at the very least they will be building a fence... How this stops someone with bolt cutters or any other heavy duty cutting tool for that matter baffles me. We need a little more than just a fence.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by PUG1911

No permanent or semi-permanent structure I can think of will have an appreciable effect. The only thing that would is putting piles of money into tons of soldiers (or call them what you will) to patrol the border(s).

That is my thought exactly. Not unless there is someone guarding this structure, there is no point in putting a fence up that will do nothing to stop someone from jumping over it.

If put to the task the military could easily close down the border though the use of a 100 or so UAVs to detect people crossing the border and a small mobile ground forces that could be air lifted to the location of the border jumpers. It takes two people to pilot a UAV, so working 8 hours on and 16 hour off there is 600 people needed to patrol the border. Shit even if you doubled the number of UAVs in the sky at any one time that is still only 1200 or so soldiers needed. This would allow the more effective use of the border patrol because their only task then becomes going out and picking these people up. These politicians make it sound like you need a 10,000 man force sitting on the border to close it down, but that is a load of shit.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Rei no Otaku

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060516/..._immigration_6

Thanks for the link.

Even if Mexico did sue us, what would that get them? I would not want to be the judge who was stupid enough to rule in favor of the Mexicans, some white nationalist whack job would probably gun him down. *Points at NaklsonofNakkl*

Hey NaklsonofNakkl, I don't know what is wrong with your brain but geez... I'm all for closing the border but I like most Americans do not want to wage genocide on another nation.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Watts

I'm asking what good it'll do if a bunch of desperate immigrants really want to make it into the country, and will go to any lengths to get in. Why bother stretching the National Guard even thinner when the overall situation won't change any? Maybe you don't care about the troops but I do!

Stretched thin? We have reserve troops from every branch of the military that could be used for this. We have over 300,000 National Guard reservists, you can't tell me we have that many in Iraq. When they say they are overstretch they are referring to the fact that each soldier (reserve) can only serve in our current war twice (under the two operations), each time for one year at a time. The National Guard requires all soldiers to serve 2 weeks a year, just make those two weeks mandatory for all qualifying soldiers at the border. Even if only 20% of our national guard forces were used to protect the border on their two week mandatory drill, that would be about 1100 troops on the border at all times. These are the people that could be used to man listening/detection devices (i.e. UV's, ground level radar, etc) that direct the border patrol too exactly where these people are coming across, that would make far better use of our current border patrol.

The Logistics of the situation are not the problem; it is getting the political will to do so. By putting forward any plan that doesn't completely lock down the border and send the message to Mexico that we will no longer tolerate this, it is only going to encourage more of them to come... a lot more, especially with this guest worker and amnesty bs.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by gukarma

Is this human...

I mean, is this something that the US wants to go on record as having used?

Having used what, unmanned aircraft? I don't see the problem with that. It isn't like they would need to be armed like those in Iraq.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Watts

No, I can't. I'm not going to either. What I am going to tell you is that these reservists are not full time citizen-soldiers. They have real jobs, and the majority have families and other obligations to tend too. Furthermore, it strains their employers and puts the reservist in a bad situation if they cannot get their job back upon returning from their duties.

I still think there's a better practical solution that make's good business sense and does not involve deploying the military. Beefing up the Border Guards personel would provide more employment for the border states. Yet still leave the funding and manpower of the National Guard to attend to other duties such as natural diaster relief.

Your logic is faulted, Watts

As I have already stated, contrary to what you might believe or understand, ALL reservist are required to complete 1 AT every year, which means they serve on active duty for 2 weeks. Nothing would change for these people except for where they served their AT. This is part of being a reservist; all of us know what is required of us.

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What I am going to tell you is that these reservists are not full time citizen-soldiers.

We are soldiers and sailors on or off duty. This is something that you might not because to understand but when I go home I am still accountable under military law, even though I am not on active duty. So when you say we are not a full time citizen soldiers, that is not entirely true.

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They have real jobs, and the majority have families and other obligations to tend too.

The military is one of those obligations; otherwise they wouldn't be in the reserve.

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Furthermore, it strains their employers and puts the reservist in a bad situation if they cannot get their job back upon returning from their duties.

This again is wrong. It is federal law that I am guaranteed my job upon returning from active duty as long as I adhere by the guild lines that are set up to protect myself and the employer. Employers know this a head of time, as all reservists are required to inform their employer that they are a reservist.

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Beefing up the Border Guards personel would provide more employment for the border states.

The border guard is not well equipped in this fight, they lack the technology and training that the military has access too. You'd be wasting your money if you wanted to try and beef up the border guard to the level that matches what the military can already do at a whim. That means you'd be wasting my and everyone else's tax dollars when a cheaper, more effective and sound plan of action has already been proposed... all for the fact that you don't like the sound of military on the border.

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Yet still leave the funding and manpower of the National Guard to attend to other duties such as natural diaster relief.

If you would have actually read what I wrote, you might have noticed that at any given time only have about 1100 troops on the border, and their sole purpose would be to monitor the border. Lets do that math, ok?

That means that at any given time only .3384 percent of the National Guard alone would be used to guard the border. Even if we quadruple the number of troops maning the border to 4400 it is still only 1.35 percent of the National Guard. This is only for the National Guard, there hundreds of thousands of reservists spread out in the other branches that could be used for this task.

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That alone allows me to have a little sympathy for illegals as human beings. But that's not the only reason either. It make's good business sense from a capitalist aspect to have an unconventional pool of labor on hand.

That is a horribly un-American thing to say. Yeah you know what else is good business sense? Dumping toxic waste in the ocean, because it is cheap to pay the fines on that sort of thing than it is to actually deal with the waste. There is a reason why we have these laws, and blatantly disregarding them because you "feel" like they shouldn't apply is no excuse.

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He just feels that everyone should have a free ride. Working for something like the privilage to be an American citizen is tooooo hard waaah waaah waaah. You want something, then you work for it. What you don't do is go out and fucking steal it from those who did work hard for it and not expect them to get angry at you for taking something that isn't yours and breaking the law.

Nothing ever worth having was easy.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Tell me, did YOU work for your citizenship? No, you didn't, asshat.

We should make it like Robert Heinlein's world, you have to serve in the military to be considered anything other than a transient nobody, even if you were born here.

I'm fucking doing my time, so that you louts can bitch about immigration.

Fuck you and your "earned" citizenship, you didn't do anything more than sit in your mother's womb for nine months.

Join the club buddy. I'm serving in the military as well. Being an American Citizen is my birth right, they have no such claim to that. If they want to be an American they need to earn it as every other immigrant before them did. Those people who just take something they have no right to have no appreciation for what it means to be an American. Something you should understand as you are serving our nation to protect the ways of our land.

How many times does it have to be said, "THIS IS NOT ABOUT IMMIGRATION, THIS IS ABOUT ILLEGAL ALIENS WALKING INTO OUR COUNTRY, BREAKING OUR LAWS, AND THEN EXPECTING A FUCKING HAND OUT WHEN AMERICANS STAND UP FOR THE LAWS THAT WE PUT INTO PLACE FOR A REASON."I don't know how to make it any clearer.

Immigration is this: "The act of immigrating; the passing or coming into a country for the purpose of permanent residence."

Not people coming here, breaking our laws, and taking jobs away from Americans.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

The free hand outs come in many forms; whether it is the free usage of our health care system, our police, our firemen, state and federally funded welfare programs, etc. It is all coming out of the American tax payer’s pocket and going into the hands of people who shouldn’t be here.

This is a huge problem here in Oregon. We have people coming here illegally and having as many children as they can, all of which are now receiving food stamps, free healthcare, and free schooling among other things. What makes it worse is that even when they do catch people who are illegally here (even on drug trafficking charges) they let them out on bail and give them a court date, HELLLO they aren't going to show up. On top of that Oregon's Governor has taken the idiotic stance that he refuses to let state Agencies check if the people receiving the states services or getting state ID are illegal (or even wanted for that matter) and it is bankrupting the state.

You can say there are no hand outs all you want, that doesn’t stop them from taking revenue from our system that the American public now has to make up for in the form of higher taxes. Sounds a lot like wealth distribution to me.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

The last I heard of the ESL (now known as ELL) program a couple of months ago was it was a complete failure here in Oregon. There was a report that stated a large percent of the students that came out of that program couldn't speak English and were in fact behind those that had full emersion English schooling. I’ll have to look for the news paper that I read it in.

When I was in high school I had classes with several students that had completed their ELL classes and were then put into regular classes. Several were Russian and a good number of others were Mexican. None of them could speak English beyond a few words, they normally only associated with others of their country, and I remember a lot of them just not showing up for class anymore because they didn’t understand what was going on and probably didn’t see a need to continue to waste their time.

On the other hand my fiancé went though the same classes, she now speak fluent English, can read and write at a college level, and is currently attending a University.

Also the age thing isn’t as telling as you might think. There is a janitor who works for a company that cleans the building I work in. This man is in his mid-50s and has been here less than 2 years from Russia. I’ve been here at this company almost a year and a half now. When I started the guy could only make very, very simple conversation and had never had any schooling English before coming here. Now however he understands English about as well as any 5 – 7 year old and is getting better every day. If an old man can do it by working hard, any of these other people can do it as well. What I do see is a lot of people who just don’t want to put forth the effort to try and learn the language.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by SemperFidelis

I don't have that problem in my school, Gumby. Well, it's an Academy, so you can't really get away with not speaking proper English, I guess. But generally in my region, you're pretty much right. I see a vast amount of immigrants not putting forth the necessary effort and initiative to integrate into American society. I think we should make our forms and things so difficult that learning English is a pressing prerequisite. That'll make a great incentive to learn the language. Agreed?

I went to public school... It was also the poorest school in the district, which had the highest level of ELL students, had gang issues, drug problems, teachers sleeping with students, and 2100+ student body in a school designed to hold 1500. Our teachers are also paid some of the highest wages in the nation and we get the least for our tax dollars :/

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?