Of Adlib, MIDI and VGM ports (split)

Again, not to put too fine a point on it but Rimo's Adlib TIM rips aren't a 'game rip', at least in the sense that it's not how the original game audio sounds.

And Eriol- cool, you're from Indonesia? Alway nice to see someone from either my country or Indonesia.

- Spike

Jam it back in, in the dark.

At the time, General MIDI sound cards were affordable, and although not as good as the Roland GM, were still far better than the FM Synth.

Either way, we're talking about now, not 1992

Composers had to take the MIDI file, which they'd composed for General MIDI (usually, the SC-55), and change it (remove notes), a process called "dumbing down" by most composers I've spoken to, including the composers of this game itself.

Basically, the inferior sound hardware of FM Synthesis based cards (less polyphony, tone generation etc) meant that General MIDI files had to be fundamentally changed.

The bottom line is that any time Rimo (or anyone else) rips a MIDI file recorded from the Adlib synths, where the game was composed for MT-32 or SC-55 (GM), it:
a. won't sound like the composer originally intended; and
b. won't necessarily give a good indication of what the piece originally sounded like (for example, whether it's an acoustic guitar or a synthpad, it'll become some form of FM synth lead).


Anyway. My point is just that 'game rips' should be what the soundtrack was intended to sound like. Regardless of whether back in the day someone heard it differently (worse) because they couldn't afford the gear, that's not the point. A game rip is (supposedly) a true representation of an original score. FM Synthesis did have soundtracks composed for it, but Sierra's weren't any of them.



My subpoint was that Adlib FM synths don't handle jazz at all well, especially when the music isn't specially made for the synth. Listen to a TIM piece with a SC or even a GM sound card, then the Adlib equivalent and you'll know what I mean.

Regards,
- Spike

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I agree and disagree. There is only one "true face" with MIDI composition soundtracks (ignoring niche tastes such as Rimo's, which is perfectly valid of course), unless the soundtrack had specific support for multiple devices (as opposed to the 'dumbing down' support mentioned earlier).

I love rearrangements as much as the next person, too. Or multiple versions.

But, there's a difference between rearranging and changing a MIDI file to suit a low-end synth. While I agree there may be merit in hearing the files particularly suited for a FM Synth (that is, someone tailoring the files for that synth), I don't think there is when we're talking about someone (not the composer) who's had to change the composer's intended sound to fit the box of FM Synth, or for that matter PC Speaker beeps and boops. The job with GM->Adlib was simply to make the amount of notes allowable, not to tailor it as I hinted at before.


Anyway. If you want to be technical, anything recorded based on a game's soundtrack is a 'game rip'. But that definition is unsatisfactory to me- what if I record a PC Speaker version of the GM-based and CD redbook Betrayal at Krondor- is that a gamerip? (Chose that example 'cause I saw you listening to it the other day Niki. ) Perhaps calling Rimo's rip of The Incredible Machine, say, "The Incredible Machine (PC Adlib Gamerip)" as opposed to the same without Adlib might be a way of solving the issue.

Either way, I'm sorry to change this thread's course, and mods are welcome to split this.

- Spike

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

And of course our opinions converge. Nothing is black and white, and let me preface this by saying I say the following in good faith and not with any malice.

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First, about eriol33's request, he mentioned in the first post that he is looking for jazz in old games (and thus, old "limited" sound). That's why I mainly suggested AdLib tunes, and pushed that version of TIM's soundtrack forward, instead of the enhanced/MIDI one. If he would have been simply looking for jazz, then I would have suggested the version that sounds like real instruments, like you did, but I felt it wasn't the right context here. However, if eriol would actually prefer the more advanced version, then we should provide that one.

I can't say I agree with this- if you're looking for parts of OST's, you want the OST- not something that wasn't intended to be the soundtrack.

You also seem to have this view that MT-32 or Sound Canvas soundtracks are 'enhanced'- usually they're disappointingly done, with poor panning, no reverb, etc. Nevertheless, they always sound better than Adlib scores, and they are always (for Sierra games, and usually for others) the intended soundtrack, exceptions applying of course.

Again, you say 'more advanced'. The soundtrack is the SC-55 composed one, not the Adlib. You seem to be missing the point- old game music doesn't mean 'retro sound', or whatever. Regardless of whether game music is from 1988 or 1995, the way it's supposed to sound is the way it's supposed to sound. You can't reinvent that due to nostalgia or loyalty to a particular sound card's synthesis. Not to say you can't enjoy FM Synthesis (Adlib), or anything like that- I'm not a damn Nazi. But it is misleading to suggest a game's soundtrack is Adlib when in reality the composer never intended it to sound that way, and indeed would be horrified if it had been (compared to available technologies at the time).

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My definition of a "game rip (of music)" is, in a very simple way, the music ripped from a game, as opposed to game music coming from an official album & the like. So, I use the term loosely and it encompasses all music sources, yet I usually make a disctinction for redbook audio, but still consider it a sub-category of "game rip". When I have rips of different sources from a same game, I usually identify it in the folder's name (i.e. AdLib ~ PC Game rip / MT-32 ~ PC Game Rip, etc.). As for the rips I'm doing myself, I don't specify that AdLib is the source in the folder/title, but I do mention it in the NFO file. Since there aren't much PC game rips from old games floating around, and that not many people actually care about them, I believe this isn't misleading enough to be a problem. And anyway, it is, just like an MT-32 & the like sources, a "PC game rip".

I agree with most of that. But I don't agree with your final point. Sure, anything can be a gamerip but then we come again to the PC Speaker example- sure it's a farcical one, but then what's not considered a gamerip? The titles of the folder should clearly state that. I've downloaded a Zeliard 'gamerip' which was the converted QuestStudios GM MIDI files (it's a MT-32 score) played on someone's GM soundcard. Awful.

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I agree that when PC games started to feature sound options higher than AdLib, the later was most probably kept for support, since not everybody had the latest sound card or sound module.

Most probably, I like how you say that. The term is 'legacy support'. And support isn't the right word- it wasn't the composer who sat there and tweaked it carefully so Rimo with his Adlib could enjoy it, it was someone else from the music/audio department who had the unfortunate job of dumbing the General MIDI files down to become Adlib, Tandy etc. (I've heard inside stories from Sierra composers who are friends of mine, this isn't concocted or assumed. Being the Adlib guy or worse yet the Tandy guy, *sucked*.)

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Actually, the majority didn't have them and I'd like to think old PC gamers are more familiar with AdLib soundtracks than with MT-32 ones. Does this make AdLib the "real" sound? No. So MT-32 and the rest are the "real" ones? Closer, yes, but not completely it either. You see, I consider that neither is the true "king", all sound settings avaible shared the "throne", but one might have been bigger and thus occupied a larger part of it, but the others were still there and were still used. While the composer might have composed the music to be played by a MT-32 (and GM cards in general), he also had to keep in mind that not everybody had one, and the other settings didn't have to be neglected. Obviously, the music elements had to be brought to a lower level of sound and adjusted by removal ("dumbing down" as you said), but the result, at least for AdLib, was still very enjoyable (for the majority of games). Considering AdLib's level to be in the same league as PC speaker is a really cheap shot; it's a versatile sound chip and, while being synthetic, it could still reproduce various instruments and by this, allow representation of different music genres. Sure, never on the same level as GM, but it's not devoid of any qualities either. It has a "retro" sound compared to GM, and I've had the chance to speak with several people that actually prefer that, and this wasn't in one of my dreams. This also apply to VGM in general, with chiptunes and other retro sounds being still something many people have a soft spot for (i.e. see the "Best Chiptunes Contest" here at GFF). Unfortunately, this creates a division in old PC game music fans. You might think I'm a pro-AdLib, but I actually can enjoy MT-32 as well, but in this situation, AdLib is brought down, and I have to stick with it somehow.

Now, I agree with the 'most people didn't have one' point. That's why my site exists. But, equally you'll notice noone requests Adlib recordings, despite the overwhelming majority of (for example) Sierra fans who must have played the games with them.

Although, I think TIM would have been played with General MIDI soundcards mostly.

I sort of can see your 'throne' argument, but still, it sounds like rose-coloured glasses to me.

As for what composers did, I explained that point above. No composer specially tweaked sounds for Adlib, that I know of anyway (I know it didn't happen at Sierra).

The affordability problem of the MT-32 era was eroded by the GM soundcard era, where GM and digital SB capabilities wer on the same card, and for a lot less money too.

I can't say I find Adlib very enjoyable or many Sierra games, if so, then it's probably the quality fo the music rather than the format/synthesis being used. But I never compared Adlib to PC Speaker- that point was to Niki about what's considered a gamerip. I've played Sierra games with Adlib before- indeed, I didn't have a MT-32 for years (2002 I think) and played my first Sierra games, SQ3, SQ1VGA, LSL5 etc with Adlib sound on a SB AWE32.

You know, I had Adlib recordings on the first incarnation of my site too
Wow, this takes me back.

Your last couple paragraphs are I don't know, kind of silly. Sure, it's personal preference- but if I was to estimate, I'd say 5% of Sierra music fans would take the Adlib music as their first choice, and probably 0.1% of Kyrandia 1 music fans would.

I don't think there's a division. When people want to hear the old game soundtracks, they always ask for an enhanced version of the MIDI recordings. Noone asks for Adlib recordings, unless specifically they want nostalgia, or if like you they have an affinity for the music (for example, Death Adder's Adlib music archive). Either way they usually want to hear the proper version of the track.

Of course I admit a lot of people played with Adlib and have nostalgia, myself included. And I'm not saying you shouldn't host Adlib music, far from it. I'm very glad you do- I wish you'd do Larry 5, or SQ3/1VGA etc. I just think it is misleading to call a gamerip a gamerip when it's something other than the intended OST sounded like.

Also, I don't use terms like 'pro-Adlib' or whatever. I like FM Synthesis just as much as the next retro gamer, but just when the game was composed using it- say, Apogee's old platformers. I *love* that sound!

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I concur that a MT-32 rip should be considered more like the "true" game rip when the composer has intended it to be the main music setting, but I completely disagree that an AdLib rip is not worthy of the title (or even worth existing). Calling it a "PC AdLib Rip" would be more accurate, but the other would have to be "PC MT-32 Rip". AdLib is still an original game sound, and it was avaible in the settings, but I understand what you mean about that. However, if you are so inspired by an "original" sound, I wonder why you have, for the Legend of Kyrandia rip, actually enhanced it (the choir, for example)?

I didn't say that Adlib music shouldn't exist, or that it shouldn't be called a gamerip. Just say "Game Rip- Adlib" or whatever.

I'm inspired by the original sound, sure! That's why I enhance the recordings. Because although the composers used a device to record, of course if they could have, they would have used a better synth or real instruments. The Roland synths were the best for game music at the time, so they were used. For example, Frank Klepacki asked me to enhance the recordings a bit.

I don't think game music's perfect, even the original OST, believe me. As I mentioned earlier, deadlines meant panning is poor (for example, many MT-32 soundtracks have no panning, everything's dead centre), and more. That's another reason to enhance, to bring out a track's 'full potential' by improving the panning. I'll post a comparison tomorrow to illustrate my point further, from my TIM1 CD.

Also, the only time I do a "PC MT-32 Rip" or SC-55 rip is going to be where I do a full MIDI soundtrack, before I enhance it (because people like the original soundtracksn ot messed with, as well). It's not really a rip, because a rip means direct game audio. I have more fun with it than that

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As you should have guessed, I don't own a MT-32 or any other modules, but do own a Sound Blaster 16 card (with the AdLib chip), so my only possibility to rip old PC games is by using it. I could buy a MT-32, but I feel like there isn't enough games I want to record the music from with that source to be worth it, and most games were already ripped by either Quest Studios, you or the few other module owners around. I certainly have a bias towards AdLib, since I've grown up with its sound, so I actually can enjoy the recordings I'm doing with it, and can only hope others will too. Sometimes, I could wait for someone with a MT-32 to rip a game instead of doing an AdLib one, but in the end, it could never happen or take several years. So, I do what I can to provide music to the VGM scene, and I consider it's not something bad, although reading this don't make feel so good.

Well, if you are wedded to the Adlib sound, and have nostalgia with it, there's no reason for you to get them either.

I also agree with your sentiment, and think it's a great thing that you have such passion for it.

I also understand your frustration with the lack of old MIDI-based PC game rips. That's why Death Adder started his archive, you should check it out.

Also why I started my site- I know noone will record some of these games.

I apologise sincerely if you don't feel good, or if I've offended you. I don't mean to personally attack you or the work you do. I love game music, and it's obvious you do too. But I definitely feel your personal bias towards Adlib shouldn't get in the way of you titling your gamerips appropriately, or it's bound to mislead people. Mislead me when I downloaded your Kyrandia rips. That's all I was getting at- not that you're doing something worthless, or anything like that.

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To come back to TIM and eriol's request, it's actually interesting to see he was able to enjoy the AdLib version. Maybe he'd prefer the enhanced one, but I mention this only has a proof that an AdLib version of a game soundtrack that also exists in superior forms can still be appreciated. Also, I guess it can in fact handle jazz in a decent enough way; probably not one that people attending a jazz festival would be thrilled by, but one VGM fans can relate to. And I'd like to say there's at least one track from TIM that I prefer the AdLib rendition of over the MT-32 one, finding that the later doesn't deliver a performance as clear and solid as the AdLib one. The track in question is "Rock" / "Punch Out!". Maybe that's my bias again...

Oh, definitely. I really like "Sacks" from SQ4 from the Adlib for example.

Also, I liked some of the FM Synth tracks from the "All Sounds of Sorcerian" album (although I think Sorcerian was originally FM Synth based in Japan).

Again, TIM wasn't composed for the MT-32, but the SC-55. You're probably referring to my MT-32 recording on my website. That's not something to rely on, as the General MIDI version sounds excellent. I'll have to dig up a recording.

Although, since TIM1 is so weird, I bet some Adlib tracks are quite acceptable. I wonder how Rock 2 or Funk or Euro sound.

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I understand your opinion, but I can't admit that you remove everything from AdLib.

Hehe. Hopefully I've cleared this up.

- Spike

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Don't be so quick to simplify- just because you're talking about Adlib and your love with chiptune sounding music, that doesn't mean I think your opinion is invalid, nor does it mean I think mine is limited either.

I think it's fairly obvious that you're biased as far as your love of chiptune music in PC games goes (i.e. Adlib soundtrack for LoK), and probably (in the minority- though that's not a statement of negativity or accusation, it's just how it is. Believe it nor not, some people just like hearing the audio how the composer intended.

As for Sierra's history being tied to MIDI, that's the same as any old game company. For consoles, it's chips.

As for QuestStudios, I'm well aware of its' shortcomings are far as Sorcerian/Silpheed goes. But as you say, the owner doesnt' care about non-Sierra music, whereas I love all VGM.

Anyway. While Idon't think the discussion is 'going nowhere', I think you have to talk about what's being discussed, not just saying "I'm biased therefore I'm right", which I'm trying to avoid (although it's hard so I'm probably failing as Niki is).

Anyway. I'm not here to argue some case. I was just enjoying talking to Rimo. I was actually listening to some of his Adlib game rips earleir without realising.

- Spike

I was speaking idiomatically.

Just on the Sierra Lounge, the reason Adlib was promoted was simply because as we discussed before, the MT-32 was out of reach for most people. I mean, it was 500 bucks or so back then, and most people won't spring 200 for a pro sound card now!

Ken Williams wanted people to hear something, otherwise it literally would have been MT-32 or PC Speaker.

That's basically why Adlib existed in Sierra games- also, it was around in other games too, obviously, but I don't have much knowledge about that.

And it's a good thing too. For years, I played with the Adlib music.

I think you're too quick to be defensive rather than listen to what I have to say. But, I still don't want to offend you, as you seem really uncomfortable, I'll say it again. I don't hate the way Adlib sounds, I just consider it inferior (in most cases) to original soundtracks where they were not composed for Adlib, and Adlib was a second or third class option.

I'll finish this later, the wife wants me.

- Spike

P.S. Teioh, is that sarcastic or what? Either way, Frank Klepacki asked me to do just that, pretty much.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Um, that isn't my point. Rather than "don't check out Sierra or other games for Adlib", I'm saying listen to a given soundtrack with the device it's supposed to be heard with. With GM scores like TIM, almost everyone here will have the Microsoft Synth, so that's not an issue.

If you want good use of Adlib FM Synthesis, my point is- listen to an actual Adlib soundtrack! I don't think that's a very hard concept to grasp. That's not to discount people like Rimo or Niki's tastes, I'm saying this for all those who aren't necessarily Adlib fans (not that they'll hate it, but for those who play GM games with GM, etc).



Bottom line to Rimo: I don't consider Adlib 'negative', it sounds good, when it's composed for it. Your fondness is a personal preference, which is fine, but most people will concur that the original soundtrack is a vast improvement. There's a difference between liking a particular sound, and liking a soundtrack to be heard the way it was intended.


I didn't mean this to drag into some saga, although I think Rimo and myself enjoy talking about such things. I just think Rimo lets his personal bias influence some of his comments a little too much, which can be misleading. I'm sure there's many people who think some of his Adlib game rips for non-Adlib composed games are the way the game was intended to be heard, and potentially think the game's score isn't much cop because of that. That's something I as a big old PC game music fan don't like very much. Of course the guy's allowed to like the way Adlib sounds, but when it comes to talking about it with other people, call it how it is- don't use terms like 'advanced version' and 'limited version'. It's very misleading.

- Spike

FELIPE NO

And that's a different scenario again. Ports aren't the same as dumbed down versions of tunes.

I mean, it's almost the reverse for Sorcerian and Silpheed, the MT-32 is a 'better' format than the PC-98 sound. Unfortunately, the tunes were messed with. Although I prefer a couple of the MT-32 tunes over the various Falcom CD recordings, I can confidently say the reverse is true for 95%+ of the soundtrack. That said, I don't really like the original versions of the music from the PC-98 either, where all sounds are played by one instrument. But the Sierra port is very unsatisfactory as well. But that's another story, I think Silpheed and Sorcerian have never been fully explored as far as CD or live recordings of the game music goes.

- Spike

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Well, sort of man, but my point wasn't to not check out Sierra games, period I love the old games and if you'd be put off playing them because their Adlib scores weren't composed for them, don't be. Look at Rimo for example. And I played them that way for years. it doesn't detract from he game- playing with a MT-32/SC-55 just adds to it.

- Spike

Jam it back in, in the dark.