Smoking bans: Good or bad?

I think the greatest problem with second-hand smoke bans is the attitude of the people supporting them. "I don't smoke, so I don't mind the ban." WTF, world? Are you so antagonistic against smokers that you don't care about their civil rights anymore? And that's what this boils down to, not public good, it's a huge infringement of civil rights. On the smokers, partly, but most importantly on business owners. If I were to start a restaurant, I can no longer choose to let people smoke on MY property. That is fucking absurd! What tends to get lost in the debates is that business owners could choose to restrict smoking in their establishment if they wanted your non-smoking business. Obviously they don't. No one has ever forced you to walk into an establishment that has a large amount of smokers. You chose to do it. To complain afterwards is nonsensical. People somehow have this image in their head of being entitled to smoke-free air on private property. There is absolutely no reason why that should be so, not in a 'free' country where you have the choice to not enter any given building.

Furthermore, as Eleo touched on, there is absolutely no valid study that has linked second-hand smoke to absolutely any SIGNIFICANT risk of cancer or anything else. Correlations have been shown in statistically INSIGNIFICANT results, but even those did not imply a CASUAL relationship. Not the same thing, kids.

There have been only two major, significant second-hand smoke studies.

The first, by the EPA, was conducted in 1993. It was later vacated by a federal judge as being conducted in absolutely atrocious way, indicating that its results were completely bogus.

The second, by the WHO, was conducted in 1998. The title reads: "PASSIVE SMOKING DOES CAUSE LUNG CANCER, DO NOT LET THEM FOOL YOU". However, further down in the report, it says: "The study found that there was an estimated 16% increased risk of lung cancer among non-smoking spouses of smokers. For workplace exposure the estimated increase in risk was 17%. However, due to small sample size, neither increased risk was statistically significant."

Now, to you laypeople, that may not mean much, but in scientific terms, that means that no conclusion should or could be reached from results like that. It's just like flipping a coin 4 times, getting head 3 times, and saying that the coin is weighted such that it is more likely to land on head. It just doesn't work that way.

Link to the study: http://www.who.int/inf-pr-1998/en/pr98-29.html

Rock on, Eleo.

EDIT: What you kids seem to miss is that inhaling the smoke of a cigarette by actively smoking it and inhaling air-born smoke is completely different. Completely different concentrations and force of inhalation. Sitting in a room of smokers, breathing like a human being, have you ever EXHALED smoke? I didn't think so.

The best argument I've seen presented is use of common sense. OOH THERE ARE CHEMICALS IN THE CIGARETTE SMOKE. Yeah man, there are chemicals in LYSOL spray too and if you stuck it up your nose you'd get a nice high and then probably die. But you're not doing that, are you.

There are chemicals everywhere and many of them are indeed carcinogenic if taken in large doses and properly. Second hand smoke is probably not one of them. If you want to live on the 'safe' side, make a choice as a human being to not be exposed to it. No one has ever stuck a cigarette up your nose, I'm sure.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Devo

So since it doesn't cause cancer according to you they should be allowed to just blow smoke in our face?

I highly doubt any smoker has ever approached you specifically and blown smoke in your face just to spite you. I think you'll find that if you get off your straw-man argument you'll find that smokers are (generally) by far some of the most accomdating people with their disgusting habit. This is partly due to the fact that so many smokers no longer enjoy their habit and want to quit and certainly don't want anyone else suffering on their part.

However, this law has nothing to do with that. Nice non-sequitor.

Quote:

In California it is regarded as a Toxic Air Contaminent:

Anything is a contaminent in large doses. Hell, injest too much calcium and your organs will turn rock-hard(calcify) and you'll die. There is absolutely nothing benign in this universe. You're simple not inhaling enough smoke for it to do any kind of significant damage.

BTW, the only reason that second-hand smoke is on the EPA's list of CLASS A carcinogens is due to their study that they conducted in 1993. Ironic that it wasn't removed from the list after the study was vacated. I have no clue why where this California business comes from however, so I'll refrain from addressing it specifically. What you quoted said too little to debunk, anyway. It basically listed what it had, refraining from listing concentrations. Amounts are very important here.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Devo

I'm sorry smokers are some of least accomidating when it comes to their habit because they don't wait till they get home or go outside. Maybe you live in a great place where smokers actually follow the rules.

You fail to realize that you choose to go into a place where they were already smoking. If you didn't want that, why go? And I meant accomodating as in, they won't blow smoke in your face, which is what you were talking about.

Quote:

http://www.arb.ca.gov/toxics/ets/etsqa.pdf

Ahahahah did you actually read that before you linked it?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

So, what, you're complaining about outdoor smoke now?

*laughs*

And I'm sorry a bunch of snot-nosed brats were rude to you, but I was under the impression we were talking about your typical smoker that one would encounter.

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I have no idea what you're trying to argue anymore, and I don't think you know either.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I'm glad you didn't really read my post.

Nice useless list of chemicals. You want me to list the chemicals released by burning gasoline in your car? Or the chemicals released into the air from various kinds of deodorants? Yeah, ok, thanks.

Smoking isn't a civil right? Damn.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?