Villains in RPGs, that you just couldn't wait to put in their place.

Both Luc (Suikoden III) and Saleh (Tales of Rebirth) are up there for guys I couldn't wait to smack around.

Most people who've played Suikoden III know why I would hate Luc-- he's pretentious, arrogant, and corny at many points. What makes it worse is that...

Spoiler:

...even though he's seen the purpose of the 108 Stars of Destiny, he's ignorant enough to believe that the end of the world is fated to be destroyed. But he somehow also believes he can stop it even though the concept of fate is that everything is predetermined. Such an irritating retard.

Most people haven't played Tales of Rebirth, but I promise you that Saleh and the rest of King's Shield are very annoying. Saleh himself isn't a unique antagonist; he's got the same traits I listed for Luc, but two things make him so annoying-- he always underestimates Veigue (the hero), and whe he gets beaten because of it, he comes back to fight again without realizing that flaw. It bugs the crap out of me that he remains so persitent without understanding his own stupidity for thinking Veigue is so foolish and inept.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

EDIT: Goddammit, that's not what "port" means.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Megavolt, don't you think "destroying hope" is a bit much as well?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Megavolt

What I meant is that Luca takes the time to inform us of the obvious. Kefka is flamboyant, but only within the context of the game. He never straight up says "I'm evil!", because that would be silly. When Luca said what he said there, it's like the writers were telling the players, "this is the ultimate evil villain and we're going to tell you directly to make sure you know". We knew that Luca was evil through his actions, and for him to inform us like that seemed a bit unnatural and pretentious. It was only that line though. When he tells a villager to squeal like a pig, that works great because it's completely within the context of the game. It's just a minor nitpick and I otherwise consider Luca to be awesome for the purpose he serves in the game.

What made you think that it was like that? Luca was certain of death at this point, but made sure not to go out with a whimper by making a lasting impression. He talked about how many hundreds it took to kill him while he murdered people by the thousands. As he says, his malice was sublime-- to the point where there was no better description of "sinister". He was the true face of evil.

I thought it was very much in context.

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You know who really bugged me in Suikoden II? Leon Silverberg. The guy is a total arrogant prick. I wanted to get at him more than I did Luca. He was so damn pompous and condescending. Especially in his conversation with Shu near the end of the game.

The funny thing with Leon is that he was more of an antihero than a villain.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Megavolt

I know what the intent was. My issue is with a small part of the execution. I couldn't help but to grin in disbelief at that kind of boasting. It really seemed like the writers were stroking their egos there. I can only hope that you understand what I mean even if you don't agree.

I comprehend what you're saying, at the very least. But why do you have this notion that it has something to do with the writers? Luca Blight was an arrogant, crazy guy. It made complete sense for him to believe he was evil at its worst, and proclaim it to his enemies as he died.

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That's true moreso in the first game, I suppose. In the second game he's the one who unleashes the final boss on you, and even if he's only the enemy tactician (which in Suikoden II seems to mean more than it did in Suikoden though; he and Shu really seem to get more liberty in making decisions for each army), it still bugs me that the guy gets to avoid all accountability and slip away. He has no integrity at all. He just jumps in with whichever side he thinks is going to win.

Leon unleashed the Beast Rune so that the party could incapacitate it; not because he had some sort of wish for revenge. It had been trying to break free from its seal after Luca gave it the blood sacrifice at Muse, and the only reason it didn't up to that point was because Jowy was holding it back (which is explained at Tenzan Pass after the L'Renouille falls). Leon's modus operandi is to end war as quickly as possible, with the fewest casualties. Like Jowy, he sided with Highland because it seemed like the quickest way to end the war.

He has a lot of integrity. He's just arrogant on ocassion.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Megavolt

I never said he wanted revenge. He throws it at you as some sort of final challenge. He says something like, "let's see if you're really worthy to lead this country". Anyways, that example was only to show how Leon is never held accountable for his actions. That point still stands.

That was the point I was addressing, actually. Why would he have to be held accountable for something when he was helping to stop the Beast Rune? He couldn't do that shit himself.

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The people who were truly loyal and truly believed in the rightness of Highland paid a hefty price. Leon did not.

Leon was not tied to Highland, so he had no loyalty to King and country. Problem solved.

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Leon seemed to think that Highland was best equipped to lead the country into the future. (you should edit that big spoiler there) Obviously he was wrong. Of course he'd never acknowledge that or be there to take the fall with his supposed compatriots.

Highland was the best equipped after Luca was removed, which is why he aided in his downfall. He also knew when the remants of Jowston turned the tide of the war and he had failed, which is why he helped prepare for the end of the Blight bloodline, as well as making proper preparations to reverse the sacrifice made to the Beast Rune. You seem to think Leon should have some sort of undying loyalty to a foreign nation, which is was made clear at the beginning that he was brought there to end the war, and do it quickly.

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Leon doesn't even join you in the first game until it seems for certain that you're going to win the war.

Leon doesn't join because,

1. He assumed Mathiu still hated him for planning the Kalekka massacre.
2. He himself was a bit angry that Mathiu became a strategist again even after he swore it off.
3. He was still somewhat troubled by his own plan, which is why he continued to live with the survivors for a while.

He eventually catched wind that the war was almost over, and told McDohl to say hello to Mathiu. He then joins when he receives a letter. Mathiu says he wanted Leon's help for the siege of Gregminster, and siege warfare is bloody.

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I didn't see any moral soundness in him. He wasn't about to fight for what was right against difficult odds. He's only there to lend a hand to whoever seems stronger to him. And he obviously has no qualms with planning cowardly traps like he did in the meeting between

Spoiler:

Riou and Jowy at Muse.

Integrity? I don't see it. Leon was totally ruthless.

You need to stop looking at the black and white thing, since Leon looks at war and politics objectively. Aside from Luca (whom he's quick to eliminate), no leader from either country looked greater than all the others, and he simply took the one that was stronger-- Highland-- and aided them to the best of his ability. His strategies apply stricly to his MO, and he is not afraid to be cutthroat because, simply, there is no good or bad side in war. There was no emotion involved in his ambush at Muse, so I can't agree with calling it "cowardly". All he did was put the enemy leader is a position to surrender, immediately ending the war, or die, greatly demoralizing and fragmenting his army. Either way, the outcome would prevent many bloody battles, and would save countless innocents. That's all he works for.

That's why I say he has integrity.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I'm not entirely sure why you're being dismissive and seem to think I dont get your argument, but whatever. You seem to not understand the basic concept of right and wrong, or look at it in a juvenile way, by arguing that being the lovable fool made Hero II right and everyone who was sneaky was wrong. The guy makes himself out to be a prick to save innocent life, and he's without morals? I'm not sure how you don't grasp the full picture, here.

I mean Jesus fucking Christ, Jowy says he has no regrets about what he did. The whole point of that ending is that it didn't matter, they both did what they thought was right, and in the end they got what they wanted.

FELIPE NO