Religion: What it means to you

Having been raised Baptist and studying theology in a private school for my primary and secondary scholastic career, I was for a long time a believer. I sort of wish I could find it within myself to continue believing, but much thought has been given to the subject and I keep coming up with the same answers.

Religion itself doesn't mean much to me, as I don't need to be told that inflicting harm or causing pain/hardship/suffering in others is wrong. Any human being should be empathetic enough in their own right to realize this before they are even old enough to be legally considered adults.

However, I don't have a problem with people practicing their own form of religion, as long as it's not imposed on me. Which I think is the biggest issue I have with the JudeoChristian-Islamic horde.

I find these religions to be quite stifling, while offering little emotional security and the practitioners of the faith seem to lack the moral bearing which they uphold, which is another turn off. Maybe that's where I have the issue, it's not the religion or the mythos behind it that bothers me-- it's the believers, the followers.

Again, I don't want to bash anyone, if you have faith, good for you. Just keep your faith out of my tax-money, that's all I ask.

How ya doing, buddy?

The fact that a loving God cannot be so cruel as to condemn someone to this kind of existence, then expect them to love him unconditionally. When, it is made very clear that his love is quite conditional. I found that my faith was fruitless and often left me at odds with otherwise decent people. My faith seemed to stifle personal growth, left no room for questioning, felt far too authoritarian, rather than an interpersonal relationship with the creator.

The bible likens God's love for us to that of a parent, it specifically uses the example Father. Yet, I know my own father would never send me to a place like hell, no matter what I had done. For being an omniscient, all-loving creature, God sure does have a lot of less-favorable human qualities. What I found veen more amusing is that God sets up a double-standard, that only he has the right to vengance, wrath, et cetera. How can he be as forgiving and omnibenevolent as he's made out to be when, quite clearly, he is not always loving-- hateful at times, in fact.

If you believe in the mythos of Lucifer and the fallen, this inherently makes Christianity a polytheistic religion. While, you may not worship him as a god, his acknowledgment as a higher being sort of redefines the dynamic.

It seemed far too childish, really. The motivation for believing was so that you didn't "suffer eternally"-- what kind of mindset is that creating, really? It's creating a mindset of irrational fear, paranoia. Which leads to an easily controllable populace.

I blame this aspect of Christianity for all the rampant homophobia, and general dislike of any sort of counter-culture.

Christianity needs to get laid, to paraphrase Bill Maher.

How ya doing, buddy?

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Just like killing isn't inherently evil. When killing becomes murder, then it is evil.

When does killing become murder, though?

Does it involve malice? What about pathological killers who do not kill with malice or remorse.

Are the wars we fight as nations considered simply killing or is it murder?

There is entirely too much grey area left by the scripture for me to really take any of it seriously. And, to further drive my point home, what is the purpose of our existence if God can suddenly change the moral dynamic as he should choose? It's obviously not for us to love him, because how would be able to in that condition?

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It's all part of the Father metaphor, which works well anyway you use it to describe God.

Except for the part about love and forgiveness.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

You still get slapped with manslaughter charges in the case of the home invasion.

So, what does the scripture say about war? I don't see how you can dismiss the idea of war as not being "real-world" enough for you, considering that every epoch in human history has pretty much been DEFINED by one war or another. Does it say that Christians are free to reign death upon anyone who isn't a Christian? Because that seems to be what's been happening throughout the history of this fine, upstanding religion. Of course, this isn't limited to Christians, either, it is especially apparent in Islam and to a lesser extent in modern Judaism.

Also, you completely ignore the example of the pathological killer. These people are born this way, it's in their brain chemistry. I do believe that the Bible does say that nothing happens outside of God's will, that we're created exactly the way we're supposed to be. So, God intentionally creates humans that are adept at killing other humans, essentially setting them up for a life of suffering? What about people with other pathologies? Chronic depression also caused by imbalance in the brain? Really, if you look around at the world, taking the rose-colored glasses off, there's not much to be thankful for in this life.

If God does exist, he's a sadistic bastard who created us solely for the purpose of revelling in our suffering.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

So, things that follow observable patterns, i.e. are predictable and able to be reproduced and scrutinized using logic systems (physical science) is a tool of Satan?

Furthermore, I don't remember there being any proof one way or another that God does or does not exist. I mean, outside of a book that uses circular logic to present its ideas.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I think I'd vote for the guy who doesn't use his religion to attract voters.

If you're out flaunting your faith, you're anything but humble. Just another one of the hypocrisies that has led me to abandon faith/belief in any religion in particular.

I think my personal moral code resembles more closely that of Hinduism/Buddhism. Maybe even Utilitarianism, as I sort of have a hedonistic calculus approach to decision making. I also believe that our actions do have a karmaic effect on the world. Not relying too heavily on newtonian physics but every action would seem to have an equal reaction. Therefore, I strive to act in a manner that minimizes the suffering of others. I say minimize, because we can never eliminate that effect, in order for me to live, something or someone else must die or sacrifice.

In short, I have morals, driven by my own reason and empathy as a human. I do not believe strongly in the existence of a supreme being, but that is not to say I strongly believe that there is no such thing.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

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No there are no contradictions in the Bible.

Wow, somehow I feel you aren't qualified to make that statement.

I think the Christian concept of "God" in and of itself is a contradiction. And, also, I have to call into question the "logic" of anyone who uses the metaphysical to guide their physical existence, as if it were law.

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Growing up with atheists for parents I saw that they had no purpose other than getting high on drugs, abusing themselves & mistreating others.

Growing up within a Christian family, I found that sin and vice were still common place within the church, that people used religion as if it were some exclusive club that I had to join, once I was in I was subjected to their weakmindedness, bigotry, backstabbing, constant condescension and general lack of understanding.

Atheists probably spend so much time getting high because they get tired of consciously tuning out the white-noise of religious banter.

How ya doing, buddy?

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I am sorely tempted but I wont turn this discussion in to a bible study. If you really want to know ask Jesus Christ to show you the answer.

Why? Are your own mental faculties not enough?

If it is indeed "His Word" meant for everyone, then why isn't it clear and concise enough to be read without divination?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

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Duo and magic, please, drop any pretense to being theological scholars. If you haven't the basic knowledge of the Old and New Covenants (something, mind you, that a 3rd grade Vacation Bible School attendee could describe at length), you should probably take a less hostile and haughty tone.

I'd wager I know more about Christian theology than you do, seeing as I spent my entire primary/secondary education in a Christian private school.

But, really, no matter how much I "know" about the pretext of Christianity, it doesn't change the fact that it's not entirely independently verifiable or the fact that it's basically circular logic or self-referential. In fact, a lot of many "good" Christians will point out the fact that the Bible doesn't reference anything, and that they "feel" it doesn't need to.

Additional Spam:

Originally Posted by Denicalis

Also, really NOT remotely true about all religions being the same. Allah, God, Yaweh... sure, they're pretty much the same, as they're all based on the judeo-christian roots, but to clame that Amon-Ra and Zeus are in the same boat? Come on. How about Shiva? Odin? They don't really fit your little mold.

Uhhh... since when were Amon-Ra, Zeus, Shiva and Odin part of a monotheistic belief system?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

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Because I have noticed that your religion-->http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/court36.htm is bankrupt of hope and those that are devout to it have demonstrated that they are bent on taking hope from others.
My belief system encourages me to give hope and I dont see how it would do any good to provide it when all you have done so far is try to undermine my statements for the purpose of leaving people with nothing at all. Consider the questions at the bottom of this post and answer them if you can.

Wow, see, this is why I don't like Christians. Already I've been mislabeled and now I'm being told that there's no hope without a supreme being. And, yet, I am the one with the weak mind.

I agree with Arainach. Yeah, I don't believe in "God" doesn't mean I believe there isn't one at all. I haven't been given empirical evidence to support either claim.

Why do you need God to motivate you to do the right thing and not just do it out of the fact that it's generally a good thing to not cause harm/hardship for other human beings?

I find there is, in fact, more hope and satisaction without the existence of a god, or at least, not one as pervasive/intrusive as the Christian God.

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I'm just curious why the atheists here havent stated how their belief system makes their life a "good" one.

First of all, you really should read up on the differences between Atheists and Agnostics.

Secondly, we generally don't have a core "belief" system, other than maybe Humanism. Which is pretty much adherence to the "Golden Rule." Because, I wouldn't really like it if I worked hard and people just try to bring each other down by stealing, raping, killing, lying, cheating, subjugating and just generally being an asshole toward other people indiscriminately.

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How has atheism and its attendant philosophies encouraged you to be a "good" person?

Again, I'm agnostic, not an atheist, and atheism doesn't really have any attendant philosophies other than "god doesn't exist."

However, since I've removed the cloud of religious dogma from my mind, I try to look at things empirically, or logically, to produce the solution which brings about the greatest result. Sometimes it's something relatively simple like hedonistic calculus, "whatever action produces the greatest benefit/happiness for the greatest number of people is the correct action."

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How has your system helped you to be a productive member of society?

Generally, having goals and educating yourself is the formula for a productive member of society. Self-motivation goes a long way, in fact, I feel it's the only motivation that truly exists. The happiness and welfare of those close to me and by extention, the human race, is a goal that most if not all of us can be motivated by. It benefits us as well as everyone else. To better oneself is to help better the society.

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I would like to know the atheist standard of what is good & bad and how they strive to measure up.

Good actions: Those which benefit the self and the other. Or, at least benefit the self without hindering/imposing or harming the other.

Bad actions: Those which cause harm, hinder or impose upon the other.

Neutral actions: those which could cause harm to the self, but one is willing to personally bear the consequence of said actions, if any.

I do have a problem with people lying, cheating, stealing, raping, killing, etc.

I don't really have a problem with people's lifestyle choices: sexual preferences, drug/alcohol/tobacco usage, mode of dress, anything related to matters of self-expression (speech, media, etc.).

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Man, I type all that up and no response. No, "Hey, thanks man, it was nice that you took the time to answer my burning questions," or "Ah, yeah okay, I understand that, but what about... [more questions]?"

I thought that's what discussion was about, man.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

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Without God I have more reasons to just take care of my own interests.

There's a difference between being self-interested and being self-absorbed. Acting in your best interests is a healthy, productive habit. What most people have trouble with is actually identifying that which is actually in their best interest. Volunteering your efforts in the service of the whole is actually in most people's best interest. However, erecting financial hegemonies which thrive on maintaining an undereducated, poor working class maybe profitable, but not actually in one's best interest (he says as he notices a can full of worms falling to the floor).

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

The problem with comparing something like Christianity to The Matrix is that The Matrix is a movie, it had one well-defined outcome, at least, from the first one.

Basically, there are a lot more variables in real-life than in a work of fiction, even a well-crafted work of fiction.

I could make some reference to how I feel I hold the key to people's freedom. Then again, I'm not really a prophet, I'm just a dude on the internets.

I was speaking idiomatically.

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To answer your second question, I wouldn't want to play thought police. Religion is already doing that. I want to stop the thought policing if you will.

You basically end up swapping one form of social control for another, though. You will end up becoming that which you hate.

How ya doing, buddy?

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This is why I try to avoid threads having anything to do with religion. It just has no place on the internet. Why? Because everyone thinks they are right and the other is wrong. Rarely, you will have someone who is willing to listen and change their mind or adapt or ever understand. But most people are ignorant, impatient, and putting more effort into proving how you are a moron instead proving their own point against your own.

Isn't this usually the case in religious discussion, on or off the internets?

FELIPE NO

That also wasn't the first time humans were given rules to live by.

But, if I remember correctly, while Moses was in the mountain, receiving the 15--oops, I mean, 10 commandments, the people of "Israel" had resorted to erecting golden idols and continuous debauchery. Suddenly, when Moses came down to them and read the commandments they felt shame and were all like "ok, sounds fair" and *poof* by some form of slut magic they were all well-behaved, non-pork eating, sabbath observing people, again.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

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And, Duo, the first time Moses came down from Mt. Sinai with the Ten Commandments, he saw his brother Aaron's golden calf idol. This angered him so much, he threw the tablets to the ground and they smashed to pieces. So Moses went back up the mountain, after yelling for a bit, and god had him re-write the Ten Commandments.

Umm, yeah, but if I'm not mistaken, they were worshipping the godlen calf, making sacrifices to it and such.

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I just don't get why one was has to be better than the other if they have the same final result.

The final result is that there's a bunch of religious people who are bigots and hate anyone who doesn't conform to their worldview. I'm not saying this is EVERYONE that practices religion, it just seems like a rather large number of them.

Even people who aren't openly hateful, or even conscious of the fact that they support--whether directly or indirectly-- such people and policies.

I've even noticed this in practitioners of extremely passive eastern religious philosophies. They think so highly of themselves that egotism, indifference and apathy becomes commonplace.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I haven't met too many militant atheists in my lifetime. Mostly on the internets, actually.

Even when I was HARDCORE FOR CHRIST!™ I never really felt persecuted, outside of random retards on the internet.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Why would we need to say the same?

I can say that by studying the past, I, at least, set out to not repeat the mistakes of my predecessors.

I would say that this all unifying book called the "Bible" is actually a great source of division amongst my family. I was raised Baptist, part of my family is Catholic-- Needless to say, some family reunions don't go over too well.

I don't need to find strength in a religious text. I already form strong relationships with those around me and find strength within myself, I've never really had any problems that required some mystical metaphysical force to solve.

I mean, if I went around wielding a sword saying "BY THE POWER OF GREYSKULL...!!!" before everything I did, you'd think I was pretty fucking ridiculous, wouldn't you?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

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My prayer to God for you is to be blessed with something that is over and above what you are able to accomplish. Something so hard that it shakes your notion of what the world is about.

When that day comes then you will see what the poor folk through the ages have been talking about.

This argument's arrogance is only overshadowed by its ignorance. You don't know a damn thing about what my life has been like, yet you presume to. Also, I've seen many people conquer many problems much more tragic in nature than my own without needing a god.

I have a friend who just finished with 9 months of Chemotherapy for lymphatic cancer, he did this without a religion. What's amazing about this guy is not just his recovery from cancer, but the fact that he was raised by the state foster care system, he was taken away from his mom when he was 9, she later died from the hole in her heat when he was 11. Grew up on the streets here, after he was ejected from the system after about 9 years of abuse in foster homes. He ended up on crack, due in large part to the exposure to sexual predators (this is actually a huge problem in this city, pedos and such getting kids hooked on this like meth and crack to get them to perform sexual acts), overcame the 4 year addiction and then the cancer hit him. Myself and a few other mutual friends have helped him back on his feet, we found him a place to live and got him enrolled into college. At 23 he's a little on the late bloomer side, but with no family other than, basically, us he's done pretty damn well. He maintains no religious affiliations.

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Yes, but only because "the power of greyskull" has demonstrated its self as an entertainment vehicle, not a method of solving problems.

It's still metaphor, just like the Bible. Whether or not it retains meaning to YOU as entertainment or not is beside the point. Christianity never ceases to demonstrate itself as a source of entertainment-- albeit akin to the kind of entertainment one derives from a TRAINWRECK, but entertainment nonetheless.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?