The Immigration Protests

My take on the state of immigration into the United States would definitely be described by most as extreme-left-leaning.

I think the U.S. should have an open-border policy, to be honest.

The economic benefits we enjoy through immigration I think outweigh a lot of the costs and supposed strain. The argriculture industry in the U.S. wouldn't exist if it weren't for immigrants. A large portion of the first farmers in California were Chinese, who were later expelled, due to the Chinese Exclusion Act. They produced a lot of fresh-goods needed to support the mining industry in the Western states.

Besides, I don't really understand the argument against immigrants, whether legally or illegally entering the country. They're here for a reason: primarily, economic opportunity. This sounds familiar, actually.

What really aggrivates me the most is that I hear a lot of "white" people talk about how this is their land and that their families had struggled to make this land what it is, today. Well, news flash, if you're white you're not native to North America. Your family probably immigrated here illegally as well, because really the idea of hardline legal immigration has only risen in the last century or so. Furthermore, I don't remember any of the European settlers signing documents or filing paper-work with the natives that had inhabited this land for about 20,000 years before their arrival.

I apologize, this post has been extremely disorganized, because my thoughts on this subject are many and they are coming through my fingertips all at once.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that they make it much easier to gain legal entry into the country. However, when you don't have an "underclass" of illegal immigrants, you lose the economic benefit of a cheap labor force.

Another issue I'd like to address is that low-skill, low-wage jobs are being displaced, anyway. Off-shoring and mechanizing contributes a lot to this, as well. Maybe if we had a better education system and more available funding for those who wish to pursue post-secondary education, we wouldn't need to worry so much about American citizens being displaced by immigrants. Economies change, America is shifting from a heavy industry based economy to a service industry based economy which requires a lot of skilled labor, while still maintaining a need for a large unskilled labor force. It's how economies grow and societies progress. Need an example? Look at Post-War Japan and now look at China, China is doing what Japan did 50 years ago.

How ya doing, buddy?

Well, my point is that we didn't really immigrate hear legally, either. We also displaced the dominant population that was here before we were. If you look at the rate of immigration by the latin population, combined with their natural population growth, they'll eventually be the majority population in many parts of the United States.

In other words, it's just something that happens, populations migrate, new populations arise and expand. The only reason we make a big deal about it is that we seem to be xenophobic. It's poetic justice, honestly.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Then again, most people put too much stock in establishments.

Shit, that bugs me that I didn't catch that gross-oversight earlier. HERE, not hear, fucking English homonyms.

Regardless, we took the land they inhabited. We didn't ask permission, we didn't come in peace. Whether or not there was some unifying legal body, it makes no difference to me.

How ya doing, buddy?

Well, illegal immigration isn't particularly threatening anyone's lifestyle. At least, to such an extent that we'd go to Franconian lengths to expel them from our country. If anything, it provides a great economic benefit.

I don't see how you can call anyone a drain on the economy if they're actively participating in production within the economy. Which these immigrants are, that's why they're here.

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DarkLink, I didn't "miss" your post.

I don't see anything citing how much the availability of immigrant workers has off-set labor costs. I see the highest estimated cost of illegal immigrants to the federal budget is $30 billion, which is a drop in the bucket. Since you're talking about a budget that totals more than 2.2 trillion, annually.

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Transfer of wealth

Yet, that tiny economywide number masks a major redistribution of wealth. The cross-border movement of generally low-skilled, low-educated immigrants has depressed wages for unskilled native workers while helping keep consumer prices under control and inflating profits for employers.

Borjas estimates that workers lose $278 billion because of immigration, while employers gain $300 billion. "There's a huge redistribution away from workers to people who use immigrants. ... That's what people are arguing about," says Borjas, an immigration specialist.

The immigration controversy revolves around questions of national identity, security in a post-Sept.-11 world and the workings of a $12 trillion economy. Illegal immigrants are essential workers on American farms, in hotels and restaurants and on construction sites. An estimated 7.2 million illegals provide much of the unskilled muscle that the USA's Information Age economy requires: 36% of insulation workers, 29% of farm hands and 27% of butchers.

That's nothing new. Historically, the contributions of the Irish, Germans, Italians, Mexicans and other groups to the American edifice are essential elements of the national belief system. Immigrants labored, often under harsh conditions, in New England paper mills, Midwestern steel plants and along the transcontinental railroads.

Yet, for every person inspired by the Statue of Liberty's welcome for "the huddled masses yearning to breathe free," there were those who saw the newcomers as alien and even threatening. From the nativist Know-Nothing Party of the 1850s to the "No-Irish-Need-Apply" advertisements of the late 19th century, xenophobia marched hand-in-hand with dependence upon the foreign-born.

Experts dispute the cost to government of illegal immigrants. Between 55% and 65% of illegal migrants have income and Social Security taxes withheld from their pay, says Jeffrey Passel of the Pew Hispanic Center. Those who buy or rent homes also pay property taxes. In communities that impose sales taxes, they pay those, too.

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Immigrants Comprise a Large Portion of the U.S. Workforce

• In 2000 immigrant workers constituted 12.4 percent of the nation's labor force(1) and
headed 20 percent of low-income households in the U.S.(2)
• New immigrants (immigrants who entered the U.S. after 1990) accounted for 50.3
percent of the growth in the civilian labor force between 1990 and 2001.(3)
• Assuming that today's levels of immigration remain constant, immigrants will account for
half of the working-age population growth between 2006 and 2015 and for all of the
growth between 2016 and 2035.(4)
• Almost 63 percent of foreign-born workers, primarily from Latin America,(5) work in
service, manufacturing, and agricultural occupations.(6)

Immigrants Are Critical to the Current and Future Growth of the U.S. Economy

• The number of native-born workers age 35-44 will be smaller in the next 30 years than it
is today. More than 60 million current employees will likely retire during this period.(7)
• The National Academy of Sciences and National Research Council concluded that, in
1997, the U.S. reaped a $50 billion surplus from taxes paid by immigrants to all levels of
government.(8)
• Without the contribution of immigrant labor, the output of goods and services in the U.S.
would be at least $1 trillion smaller than it is today(9) and the civilian labor force would
have only grown 5 percent (versus 11.5 percent) between 1990 to 2001.(10)
• The total net benefit to the Social Security system if immigration levels remain constant
will be nearly $500 billion for the 1998-2022 period and nearly $2 trillion through
2072.(11)

Immigrant Workers Are Critical to Local Economies Across the Country

• Immigrants are no longer settling only in the six states (California, New York, Florida,
Texas, New Jersey, and Illinois) in which they have traditionally lived, but are moving to
nontraditional states, such as Georgia, Nebraska, North Carolina, and Idaho. In the
1990s the immigrant population in nontraditional immigrant states grew twice as fast as in
the traditional states (61 percent versus 31 percent).(12)
• Between 1990 and 2001, new immigrants (immigrants who entered the U.S. after 1990)
generated all of the labor force growth in the Northeast, 30 percent of the growth in the
Midwest region, 36 percent of the growth in the South, and 50 percent of the growth in
the West.(13)

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Undocumented Immigrants Effect on Social Security

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Undocumented immigrants compose about three percent of the total US population. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso)
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The estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the Social Security system with a subsidy of about $7 billion a year. (The New York Times)
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Immigrants contribute billions of dollars annually but receive no public pension in retirement, are not eligible for Medicare, and are not entitled to any other benefits. (Social Security Administration)
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Most undocumented workers pay taxes, and they pay a variety of taxes. (The New York Times)
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The money that undocumented immigrants paid in 2004 added up to about 10 percent of that year's surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it pays in pension benefits. (Social Security Administration)
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The money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration's projections. (Social Security Administration)
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After the 1986 passage of the Immigration Reform and Control Act, the Social Security Administration began receiving mountains of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect or fake Social Security numbers, and placed them in the "earnings suspense file." Since then, the file has grown, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes. (Center for Urban Economic Development at the University of Illinois at Chicago)
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Many older workers return home to Latin America when they reach retirement age. (BusinessWeek)



The Healthcare System and Undocumented Immigrants

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Immigrants are not swamping the U.S. health care system and use it far less than native-born Americans. (The American Journal of Public Health)
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Immigrants accounted for 10.4 percent of the U.S. population but only 7.9 percent of total health spending and 8 percent of government health spending. (The American Journal of Public Health)
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Thirty percent of immigrants use no health care at all during the course of a year. (The American Journal of Public Health)
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Immigrant children spent or cost $270 a year, compared to $1,059 for native-born children. (The American Journal of Public Health)
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Most immigrants have health insurance. (The American Journal of Public Health)
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In reality, if more restrictions were placed on health care for immigrants, very little money would be saved, and many immigrant children would be put at grave risk. Many immigrant children already fail to get regular checkups, and as a result, more end up needing emergency care, or get no care at all. (The American Journal of Public Health)
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Many immigrants actually help to subsidize health care and social security for the rest the country. (Marcelo Suárez-Orozco, co-director of immigration studies at New York University)
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Immigrants pay taxes -- including Medicare payroll taxes -- and most pay health insurance premiums, but they receive only half as much care as other families. (The American Journal of Public Health)

Economic Impact of Undocumented Immigrants

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Undocumented immigrants have become a new source of economic growth as giant U.S. consumer companies like banks, insurers, mortgage lenders, credit-card outfits, phone carriers, and others aggressively market to over 11 million undocumented customers. (BusinessWeek)
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Undocumented immigrants add 600,000 to 700,000 new consumers to the economy every year. (Pew Research Center)
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84% of undocumented immigrants are 18-to-44-year-olds, in their prime spending years, vs. 60% of legal residents. (BusinessWeek)
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Allowing immigrants financial privileges boosts corporate profits because it enables them to move out of the cash economy, put their money in banks, and take out credit cards, car loans, and home mortgages. U.S. gross national product also surges because consumers with credit can spend more than those limited to cash. (BusinessWeek)
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When more undocumented immigrants pay income and property taxes, they help ease the tax burden for others when it comes to paying for schools, health care, roads, and other services immigrants use. (BusinessWeek)
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Letting the undocumented save and invest, could also result in a decline in crime because if immigrants are allowed to protect their money in banks, the rate of hold ups and robberies in Latino or immigrant neighborhoods drop. (Austin Police Department)
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Immigrants benefit the economy more than they take away in social services. (National Academy of the Sciences)
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In 2004, Arizona suffered severe labor shortages and huge quantities of lettuce went unpicked because growers lacked pickers. In 2005, the Central Valley in California had 70,000 to 80,000 labor positions that were unfilled. Legalizing workers would alleviate such labor shortages. (Benjamin Powell, economist at the Independent Institute)
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Immigrants are one of the main labor sources for the rebuilding and clean-up effort in post-Katrina Louisiana and Mississippi. (NewAmericanMedia.org)
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As much as half of all U.S. retail banking growth is expected to come from new immigrants over the next decade. (The Federal Deposit Insurance Corp)
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Hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrant households earn enough to qualify for $95,000 mortgages. (National Association of Hispanic Real Estate Professionals)
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ITIN and conventional mortgages taken out by undocumented could be worth as much as $60 billion over the next five years. (National Association of Hispanic Real Estate Professionals) Undocumented immigrants now comprise fully half of all farm laborers, up from 12% in 1990. (US Department of Labor)
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Undocumented immigrants are 25% of workers in the meat and poultry industry, 24% of dishwashers, and 27% of drywall and ceiling tile installers. (The Pew Research Center)
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The overall proportion of unauthorized workers in the labor force is 4.3%. Employers from many sectors of the US economy employ unauthorized immigrants – including enormous amounts of private US households. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso)
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The estimated population growth rate in Mexico is declining rapidly and may soon be slower than that in the US. (United Nations)
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Immigrants benefit the United States economy but their potential remains hindered by current laws. They do not deplete government resources, as is widely believed. (Benjamin Powell, economist at the Independent Institute)
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Undocumented add at least $22 billion, in total, to the economy each year, and legalizing their status would increase that amount. (Benjamin Powell, economist at the Independent Institute).

National Security and the Undocumented

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None of the 9/11 terrorists entered the country via the US/Mexico border. In fact, the US is most vulnerable at its ports of entry, including ship ports, airports, and land ports. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).
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It is not easy to immigrate to the US legally as it often takes decades before an individual can obtain many kinds of legal immigrant visas. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).
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Working with Mexico is central to the future of controlling the US border. Through cooperation with Mexico, the US will be able to isolate criminals, publicize rules, and identify forms of Mexican identification. (Peter Laufer, former NBC new correspondent).
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Enhanced border enforcement only increases the number of deaths of men, women, and children at the border annually. Areas with heavy border security see up to 100 additional deaths a year. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).
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While heavy border does not stop the volume of unauthorized border crossing, it does increase the costs and risks of coming to the US, including death, injury, and the use of smugglers. It also reduces the number of back and forth trips, forcing undocumented immigrants to stay longer. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).

I was speaking idiomatically.

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We have immigration quotas for a reason, mainly so our economy doesn't get wrecked.

That's the most ignorant statement, ever. Even with all of the illegal immigration into our country, we still end up with a net economic benefit.

Back during the era of Western expansion and "Manifest Destiny" bullshit, hundreds of thousands of immigrants came here from all over the world East Asia, Europe, without documentation. They worked in silver, gold, iron, copper and coal mines, built our transcontinental railroad system, grew our crops and made our textile goods.

Our economy has always been an immigrant economy. I don't believe you idiots can't see that. Americans have gone through every conceivable ethnicity from Blacks in slavery growing cotton to Irish working in sub-human conditions in various mills from lumber to fabrics.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I refuse to argue with you DarkLink, as well, because I've found sources on USATODAY, The New York times and BBCWorld that site sources claiming a $10~$30 billion NET GAIN. NET not Gross. This is including the costs of providing medical care, education and other public services versus the drop in labor costs, leading to increased profit margins for publically traded corporations and small-businesses, as well as maintaining high-availability and low-cost of commodities.

Yes, our economy IS changing, that's why immigration benefits us so much. Because more "natives" (even though they're not native), are moving to highly skilled labor positions, with a huge percentage of my generation receiving college degrees. Fewer and fewer "natives" are going into manual labor jobs. This is what should be happening a new population moves in as sort of an underclass and takes up the unskilled labor positions. There're always new markets in goods and services opening up, specifically in the realm of technology. There will be enough jobs for "natives", the key is making sure that we stay competitive in regards to education.

Why is it that people don't understand this? It's not a difficult concept.

FELIPE NO

On the subject of breaking laws, you feel that blindly following the law makes for a better society? What're your feelings on the Patriot Act? Or, better yet, what about Rosa Parks? She broke the law, was she unjustified?

I'd like to know what your feelings are on sodomy laws, or for that matter, any law concerning two adults in a consenting sexual situation.

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It's all part of civil disobedience.

Yes, this is a huge grey area, because legally they're not granted any rights by our government. Then again, why are we comitting billions upon billions of dollars to military campaigns in countries half-way around the world under the guise of liberation and spreading democracy? Wouldn't it be easier to open our borders, invite populations of these people in, create an economic backflow to their homelands and create social change through flow of capital?

I guess why I feel so strongly about immigration issues is that eventually, I'd like to see a world without borders or totalitarian governments. Ultimately, to me, the root of most of the global problems we face today are a direct result of the oligarchy's (meaning world leaders and their constituencies') greed and lust for power. Their willingness to kill and subjugate others for their own gain, but they make the laws, so they make these practices "legal".

Jam it back in, in the dark.

See, the main downfall with regulating immigration is the same as with anti-drug laws: enforcement. Yeah, they catch a few, but it's a small percentage compared to the number that make it through.

It would cost federal, state and municipal governments much more money to commit enough bodies and resources to haulting illegal immigration than it would be to simply let it happen.

Furthermore, if we were to attempt to deport every illegal immigrant living in the United States currently, it'd have every government law-enforcement agent, soldier, guardsman, social worker working 'round the clock for god only knows how long. Then, you'd have to figure the costs of physically deporting them. What're you going to do, load them on rafts and shove them out into the middle of the Pacific, the Atlantic, the Mexican Gulf? Throw them over "the fence"? That's something on the order of 22 million people.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I forget where, but I had read that the illegal immigrant population was rapidly approaching 22 million, nationwide, I think 11 million is the number of illegals in the workforce at any given time. Something on the order of half-a-million new immigrants arrive each year. You figure a good percentage of those are illegal, and multiply that by like 20 years and it figures.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

For a very long time.

Then again, I refuse to believe there aren't a huge number of other people that feel the sameway I do.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

See, that's the thing, you're equating actions that have extremely well documented results to ones that are not so black and white; ones that have a huge number of variables. Speeding, for example, is dangerous because human reaction times, the sheer chaotic nature of traffic movements and so forth directly contribute to bad results. Sure, it doesn't happen everytime you speed, but if you speed enough, something WILL happen.

Also, murder actually INFRINGES upon another's rights and sovereignty as a human, and it causes DIRECT harm. Namely, DEATH. Robbery is much the same. All VIOLENT CRIMES, in fact.

Drugs and immigration on the other hand, are a COMPLETELY different story. Someone can, (and MANY people do) use drugs and not harm anyone else around them, and function adeptly within a society. Much like MANY MANY people drink alcohol and do not cause harm to others and still function nominally within society. However, there are others who do not, this is where DUI/DWIs come into play, drug/alcohol related incidences, abuse and violence.

Samething with immigration, yes there are a FEW among MILLIONS who do not contribute to the society, but why would someone struggle and travel thousands of miles from everything they know NOT to pursue opportunity? IT makes little sense.

Basically, I'm saying you're creating a huge logical fallacy (i.e. slippery slope) by comparing drug use and immigration to violent crimes, because the two are NOT analogous outside of the fact that there are laws governing these actions.

I was speaking idiomatically.

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Someone who smokes pot isn't going to harm someone - but what about a meth or crack addict? Unless you want to justify robbery and murder as "functioning adeptly within society".

Then again, people who can afford to support their habits without resorting to illegal means don't go out and commit armed robbery or murder JUST FOR THE SAKE OF THE HIGH.

You do realize that the reason some users resort to those measures is due to the fact that controlling the substance raises its street value, right? Otherwise, I don't imagine it'd cost much more than buying a pack of cigarettes or a bottle of tylenol.

Your argument remains weak because a majority of the social problems encountered with drug use are caused by anti-drug laws.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

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Sure, they may not be harming anyone directly, but indirectly they are supporting drug lords in Latin American countries that basically own entire towns and kill innocent people who oppose them.

HELLO, ANYBODY HOME?

Think, McFly, think.

Do you know what "prohibition" was?

Do you know what the rammifications of prohibition were?

Do you honestly think drugs are any different?

FELIPE NO

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Look, I don't see why people use drugs.

I don't see why people invest so much time, money and effort in televised sports, but they do.

Just because you don't like to engage in that activity does not mean that you have the right to prescribe to others not to engage in said activity. It's not harming you, they're not asking you to join them, they're not forcing you to do anything other than go about your daily business.

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I think it's a selfish waste of money.

So is buying a Mercedes. Much like cigarettes and alcohol. Hell, spending money on anything over and above what you need could be considered a selfish waste in that respect. Yet, these are legal. I don't remember the government making laws against frivolously spending your own money.

Drugs really don't cost that much to make and distribute.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

The thing is, I think if we did it, a lot of other places would follow suit.

What is it with people and this "OMG, I CAN'T LIVE NEAR SOMEONE WHO DOES DRUGS ONCE IN AWHILE IN HIS SPARE TIME." Chances are, you probably already do.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

The only reason I can think that people are so adamently opposed to free-border policies is that it would provide competition for the established majority, in our case it's Protestant Caucasians. I.e. I'm calling these people irrationally xenophobic.

They simply mask their irrationality behind law. They justify their misplaced aggression, and people go along with it.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I think the problem with integration isn't so much on their part, though. What actions are we taking to integrate them?

I think when they come here they want to integrate, but then they're met with the invisible wall: racism, xenophobia, and other discriminatory practices. I mean, just judging by the attitudes on this board, I don't imagine they'd be met with much acceptance or anything that would foster willingness to communicate with the mainstream culture.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Tell me, did YOU work for your citizenship? No, you didn't, asshat.

We should make it like Robert Heinlein's world, you have to serve in the military to be considered anything other than a transient nobody, even if you were born here.

I'm fucking doing my time, so that you louts can bitch about immigration.

Fuck you and your "earned" citizenship, you didn't do anything more than sit in your mother's womb for nine months.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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Those people who just take something they have no right to

Hmm, I'm encountering difficulty deciding on how I want to respond to this. I'll make it multiple choice.

A) What goes around, comes around.
B) Oh, you mean like we did with the Natives?
C) European colonization is a bitch, isn't it?
D) I'm sure the Inca, Mayans, Iroquoi, Blackfoot, Kumeyaay, Swazi, Zulu, Tasmanians and countless other indeginous peoples would agree with you.
E) Your mom.

Whichever sounds pithy to you.

I was speaking idiomatically.

My point is that we don't have the same culture, language or values that the natives who lived here before us had, we took that land. We rationalize this and say it's okay, saying that it was a time of "lawlessness." Again, referring back to the belief in inherent superiority of European culture, labeling everyone else as "savage" or "uncivilized." If civility requires subjugating others to accomplish the my own narrowminded goals (whcih I exhault on a pedestal and call it "culture"), I'd rather not partake.

So what if these people don't have the same culture or language? Just because they don't communicate with YOU, at least directly, they can still function within their own social group. I guess people outside of the border states really don't realize what it is to live in a multilingual area. It's not intrusive, it's not "threatening your culture," you're all driven by some irrational fear.

The belief that immigration "drains" an economy is flawed. Yes, because of the (oh, hey, let me quote night phoenix) "bullshit protectionist policies" we have regarding labor and healthcare it can be a drain, yet still manages to produce a huge surplus due to the drop in labor costs.

They're not stealing your jobs, they're not on some bullshit cultural crusade, they're here to live and work in a better environment than where they came from. Again, this DOES sound oddly familiar.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

So, by making English the official language what do we gain? Do we no longer offer services in other languages, to people who might be trying to integrate into the society, but still aren't fluent enough in English? Are there penalties for speaking any other language in public?

Yes, the majority of people in this country speak English, but a huge minority speak another language as their first language. I, myself, speak more than just English, but it is my mother language. Look at Europe, it's hardly linguistically homogenous, but everyone functions normally. In fact most Europeans speak 2 or 3 languages, as a norm. It's not like Americans are incapable of this, it just seems that we have some disdain for anything foreign and it's related to some distorted sense of patriotism.

FELIPE NO