Prospect of peace in middle east

What do you say? Since Hamas has taken the seat of Palestine government, prospect of peace toward Israel-Palestine seems so far away. Both sides just keep positional bargaining, means they wont lower they position thus making thing wont work out. I feel poor for palestinian people.

What do you think the prospect of this never-ending-conflict in the world? Do we need to wait nuclear blow off the entire continent so that they will talk constructively in this matter?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Palestine/Iran/Syria/Russia/China/DPRK on the other and a bunch of other nations that could go either way including Pakistan and India. Pakistan would most likely side with Palestine and India would swing in favor of us because they hate Pakistan.

No no no, Palestine would be forever alone in this conflict. Palestine in fact is just used as rhetoric by these arab nations to gain attention. Have they helped palestine any way in history? they never has and never will. It's almost impossible such alliances would happen. These countries have too much different interest and they wouldnt be most likely joining force soon.

Originally Posted by Stealth

Most of those muslim nations hate us already, even not supporting Israel anymore would do no good.

Have you asked yourself before why muslim nations hate you already?

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

We could sort of just drop our support of Israel in the region, considering that there's no real logical reason why we support them. Hell, that's the main reason we're so hated by the Arabs. We could have much stronger allies in the region than Israel, but we chose to support Israel and I think it's largely due to our religious standings.

...
and I thought there has been growing sentiment of anti-semit in your country. US supports Israel mainly because it's truly the only democratic country in middle east.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Sorry for out of the topic... are you really come from Saudi Arabia? Just curious.

How ya doing, buddy?

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oh please. Why people always generalize the war between Israel-Palestine happened because of religion? It's totally a wrong viewpoint. The main reason palestinian hates Israel is because te jewish have applied the Nazi's method when interrogating palestinian and harrasing the human rights of these arab. I live in the moslem-populated country and believe me, people that do extreme practicing and anarchy are called nerds here by the moslem themselves. I dont think idea of changing the fundamentality of Islam would be possible and it's not the islam at the fault, it's the fault of some fucktard called exteremists.

Palestine itself couldn't be considered unitary since it's actually splitted between the secular (PLO) and fundamental geeks (Hamas). Israel hates Palestine mainly because Hamas use the self-bombing-method which is really useful to increase the victim over Israel side during intifada though the number of palestinian victim always outnumbers the jewish.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Right now things are fucked up because the Israelis do enjoy a great amount of wealth and power in the region due to American influence. However, their neighbors live in slums. I'd be pretty fucking angry if I were Palestinian, too.

As you stated before, Israel enjoy the hegemonic power in the area because of america uncoditional support, which I concur wholly. But it makes me wondering sometimes. Which is weaker actually? Israel or Palestine? The premise said, "Israel is strong because it's backed up by US" doesnt that mean it implicitly says, 'unless America doesnt support Israel, it is a weak state' (politically I guess).

Is that logical in any way?

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Uhh, that's kind of what I'm saying, is that if we stop supporting Israel, it will be a weak state. It will, inevitably, be overrun by the surrounding nations that want to stake claim to their land.

Could such condition be possible? I dont understand the entire system of US gov, but I heard that Jewish in parliementery is the one controlling US in term of decision making process. Feel free to correct me. I dont really study US' system comprehensively.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Iran would be a much stronger ally, economically and militarily than Israel. We'd also probably become ALOT more friendly with Saudi Arabia, due to the fact that we buy their oil and are at least on speaking terms with them. If we've got those two on our side, Syria will undoubtedly follow.

You know, actually the bargaining position of both US and China is confusing. We could say US is in higher level or vice verca. Even though China enjoy rapid economic development, currently it's threatened by internal conflict within itself which might causing the collapse of the state eventually. The communist government has done their best to legitimate their influence and government in the China and repressing anything that have to do with democracy.

But the question is: how long a negative peace could last? In many conflicts in the world, especially the ones controlled by an authoritarian government, revolution eventually come and destablize itself. In this viewpoint we could say china is weaker than US, but here we find some paradox. While it's true that china's internal conflict has been raising in numbers, thus we call it a weak state, it enjoys surpluses in context of economic-relationship between many countries, it even causes US deficit reaches 22 bn dollar. Those contradictives eventually make me thinking which one actually stronger than other?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by TonyDaTigger

Yes, hence my comment that Israel didn't shell the Gaza beach for the hell of it. They didn't WANT to kill those 7 people on that beach. They are investigating the incident and posted an apology in CASE they were responsible.

Oh maybe they wish to. Casualites always greater in Palestine side. I never heard anything about Israel addressing apology for once though, maybe it's in diplomatic level, but public never knows.

Originally Posted by TonyDaTigger

Palestine AIMS for maximum civillian casulties. You can't say it's just a few "crazies" considering they ELECTED HAMAS to be in charge of things.

Please address the terrosist as Hamas or another Israel-proclaimed terrorist groups. PLO, Palestinian Civillians, and Hamas are seperate entities. If you know PLO you will be pissed of like the Palestinians did. Apart from their struggle in international level and diplomacy, they are bunch of shithole corruptors.

Originally Posted by TonyDaTigger

I'm not saying Israel is perfect. You can dig up their share of atrocities as well BUT I think its fair to say they have been the more civillized party in this war.

Wish I could find the story and the images but an event that stuck out in particular was a few years back two IDF soldiers took a wrong turn and was caught by Palestinians.

Both soldiers were beaten to death and there were pictures of Palestinians as young as 16 raising their bloodied hands and screaming how great 'God' is. They procede to multilate the corpses and then hang the bodies up for all to see.

Source please if you could provide. I respect your argument, but in this case, we may heard some propaganda. And I agree, Israel is far from perfect. They are the worst violator of human right, the same might apply as well to palestinian extremist.

Originally Posted by TonyDaTigger

That level of blind genocidal hatred is why there there can never be peace in the middle east without

1.) a fundamental change in how Islam is practiced. Christians have pillaged and killed in the name of God as well btw. Howevever it's 2006 and Islam is still doing it.

Rather than changing the fundamental practice which utterly as impossible as attempt to make Vatican agrees what's written in Da Vinci Code, I argue it would be much better to secularize the people like Turkey, AFAIK it's the best model for secularized islam-populated country, cmiw. Indonesia is bad example, while most of people are moderated islam, bunch of fucktard extremist do exist.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by TonyDaTigger

BBC news source:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/969778.stm

Some video of the lynching:
http://inhonor.net/videos/uped/fl_video.php?f_num=53101

Pictures of the two lynched IDF soldiers. *GRAPHIC, not safe for work*
http://inhonor.net/ramlah/

Oh god... How come humans were that cruel? ;_;
I dont say Palestinians should forgive and forget what Israel did to them easily. But this brutality... I guess it can't be helped. Btw that was happened around 2000? make sense... it was during second Intifada I assume.

Originally Posted by TonyDaTigger

They published an apology in an Israeli newspaper. The source is in the original CNN link.

Oh ok, I dont watch CNN, thanks for pointing that out. But it would have been much better if both sides hold constructive talk so that civillians dont suffer from the war between elites.

Originally Posted by TonyDaTigger

I will be more careful in distinguishing the groups. However the Palestinian people freely ELECTED Hamas a terrorist organization by any one's standards.

I could understand why Palestinians elected Hamas. While the PLO has their own spot on Jordania, living separately from the daily life of sufferings in Gaza, Hamas' close to palestinians in the social level. They built public services for the people and eventually, palestinians felt the guerilla closer to them than PLO.

Originally Posted by TonyDaTigger

I'd say Saddam Hussein, Slobodan Milosevic, whoever is in charge of the Rebels in the Congo, Abu Sayaff - Israel isn't the worst.

Quoted for the truth. I had my reference from Joe Sacco's Palestine. I own the book and I was surprised. The Nazi victim has turned into Nazi.

Originally Posted by TonyDaTigger

That I wholeheartedly agree with. If all the Middle Eastern countries were like Turkey, that would be a productive start.
Out of curiosity, do you know how Turkey treats other religions? Could there be a open public Buddhist Temple or Christian church?

Nope sorry, I dont know much things about religion toleration in Turkey. Secularization in middle east might be possible... but the chance would be too small since religious leaders still influence the people heavily. In this case I agree that democracy should be spread in middle east, but not in some unilateral act.
Maybe Adamgian could give us descriptions how is the daily life of Saudi people? Is religion influenced them that much?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by lordjames

Since Israel currently holds more territory than the world community officially recognizes, can someone tell me how it would be morally grievous if the Arab powers seized control of the territory that doesn't belong to Israel (territory acquired after the 1967 war) and used it to establish a Palestinian state?

Uh no. the possibility is close to zero. I would compare your statement with the future expansion of UNSC permanent members. Too vague and too good to be true.

Arab is not that solid and I dont see reason they will help palestine to establish a state.

Jam it back in, in the dark.