Atheist parents!

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

I'll never understand it. Kids have an imagination. Kids won't be crushed when they find out that the fat guy in a red suit was just all pretend. It makes shit more EXCITING for them.

Sass, it has been clearly illustrated by LordSword that some kids do, in fact, react badly, and that the possibility of long-term emotional effects exists. It was exciting to find presents under the tree even after I discovered where they came from. Would you laugh and say retard if it was your kid crying because you lied to him/her? Do you have confidence that you could explain the difference between that lie and a "real lie" in a way that wouldn't set them up to be suckers later in life?

Quote:

Kids need a creative environment to flourish. They like to imagine, they like to pretend, and it's a great avenue for them to take in encouraging them to think about the world around them. Yes, magic isn't real. That doesn't mean you shouldn't allow your kids to read Tolkien or Harry Potter books, watch The Neverending Story, or pretend they're a wizard in the backyard playing with imaginary potions. They won't suffer when they grown up - it's a natural process for them to slowly become more acclimated to their environment and the reality of it all.

I agree with all of that, but it doesn't say anything about a belief in Santa Claus. Nobody's telling their kids that Harry Potter or Frodo Baggins are real people who'll punish them if they don't behave.

Quote:

I hope to instill some critical thinking in my kids instead. Always question, always think.

Do you plan to tell them that it was all a ruse to teach them the dangers of taking things at face value? Maybe they'd learn the lesson, maybe they'd lose their trust in you, just a little. Do you really want to take that chance?

I'll teach my kids to read, and to dissect literature and film to uncover the meanings behind them. I'll teach them about the real magic in the world, instead of the manufactured kind that you lose faith in, like Santa Claus. I won't jeopardize a trusting relationship with my kids for the sake of a viral meme.

I like to pretend and imagine, I am curious about the world around me, and it has NOT ONE THING to do with Santa Claus. I focus on REAL things that are magical and fascinating, like computers, galaxies, and the spirals at the centres of sunflowers, and it's through things like this that I will foster a lust for life and growth in my children. I don't need some cop-out like Santa Claus to trick my kids into enjoying their lives or being good people or finding beauty in existence.

Quote:

...most people need a special circumstance to feel generous and giving, it seems. (That statement has nothing to do with religion) If Christmas fulfills that basic need, even once a year, I'm happy teaching my kid about it.

Maybe that's because these people you speak of were brought up giving under special circumstances, like Christmas.

Originally Posted by LordSword

My position is to just be truthful and not set myself up to be branded as habitual liar.
The Santa thing may seem harmless but by our actions we teach what is important.

QFT. I won't teach my kids to accept authoritarian bullshit under any circumstances. I wouldn't want my kids to forgive me for lying to them just to get their obedience. I want to teach my kids good judgement, not obedience.

Originally Posted by whinehurst

I mean, how can you call it misinformation? wha? Do you really deem it necessary to bring the crushing weight of reality down on five year old shoulders? don't you have any respect of the age of innocence and nativity?

Man, if you really think the world is that bad, then don't bring another life into it. It's misinformation because you're misinforming your kids about reality. Simple concept. There are far more interesting things in the Cosmos to wonder about than how all those presents got there.

I'll tell my kids about the best things I've learned from all the great thinkers in history, from Jesus, Buddha, and Mohammad, to Dawkins, Sagan, and Jung, and above all I'll teach them the importance of empirical thought and meditation. I won't tell them what to believe, but I'll certainly let them know what I believe when they eventually ask. If I get parents complaining to me because my son/daughter told little Jonny the truth about Santa, I'll tell them what my reasoning is, and if they don't like it, they can go eat wang.

Most amazing jew boots

whinehurst, sarcastically paraphrasing a tiny fraction of my post doesn't add a damn thing to this thread. Please state a fucking point that you can at least try to back up. Give me some reasoning behind this idea that kids should be unquestioningly obedient. What possible problem could arise where my kids should obey me without being given a reasonable explanation why? Why should I set up a model for life for my kids that I don't want them to emulate later in life?

My kids won't need to obey me once they understand language well enough. You get pets to obey you, because they're stupid and don't understand things sometimes, like the danger of getting hit by a car if they wander onto the road. Kids can understand explanations like Road=Car=Possible Death. My kids are gonna have to empirically discern that they should consider my advice with the knowledge that I'm more experienced, and that I wouldn't lie about what I've seen, where I've been, what I've done, or what I've learned to be true. They'll do that on their own because I'll teach them empirical thought and I'll be consistent and truthful. They will respect themselves AND me because I will have set the model for them. Kids learn fast from the example scenarios you present in early childhood.

I would rather have kids that enjoy talking to me and trust me enough to come to me with any problems they might need help with. Teaching kids to obey you means teaching them to be motivated by their fear of you, and I would be a prick if I taught my kids that fear should ever be a motivation.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by LordSword

Even if they know you will come down like a tonn of bricks on em' they will still experiment and test the boundaries.

I can establish myself as an authority figure early in my kids' lives, but at a certain point my authority will become irrelevant. Knowing what you know (that your kids will experiment regardless), wouldn't you rather that they know you will offer them advice from a well-balanced and knowledgable perspective?

I understand that toddlers need authority figures, but parenting goes on to include everything right up to high school and, if you do your job well, beyond. As your children age, the need for authority wanes and is replaced by the need for wisdom and guidance. Not to say that your authority should diminish to zero, because they need to know that they'll get an ass-whuppin' or you'll sell their favorite console or somethin' if they steal your car, but I think you should be VERY restrictive over when you actually use your authori-tah, lest you become more of an irrelevant and distant boogy-man than an actual figure of authority and respect. I know of this possibility because I've lived it, and I will take every measure I can to avoid it.

Originally Posted by STRIGON-3 (I hate Ace Week)

When you attempt to undermine this basic aspect of your family, the child will latch onto other authority figures to fill this gap. And you certainly have no control over who this might be. The kid is then victim to circumstance.

Yup, couldn't agree more. I can tell my five-year-old to stay away from my weed stash, but eventually that kid's gonna meet someone who deals or smokes in school, and I can't stop him from smokin'. What I CAN do, however, is educate my kids on the long- and short-term pros and cons of any drugs they might ask about, with help from Erowid.org and any personal experience I can offer. It is thus that I establish myself as an authority figure (by being a wise and knowledgeable benefactor) without necessarily requiring 100% obedience.

Keep in mind that I'm not talking about toddlers who have barely grasped language. Your young ones simply won't recognize you as a fearsome character after a certain age, and you've gotta recognize that age and start using logic, reason, and facts to keep your kids from doing stupid shit that will bring them undue pain or suffering, since "because I said so" and "because I'll fucking smack/ground you" ceases to hold any relevance once kids discover the possibilities of choice and subterfuge.

I won't pretend that you can raise young children without some measure of authority, but I want my children to question authority in all it's forms, as I have learned to, once they've become active thinkers and not merely desire-driven machines. I plan to nurture them until they've reached this point, and then offer my assistance and guidance whenever possible. I can't stop my kids from seeking experience, but I can offer them a little of my own.

Quote:

Getting topical again: I don't think I'm going to have kids. I would probably fuck them up too much by never arguing consistently from any viewpoint; one day I'll be arguing from some Buddhist point of view, and another day I'll be explaining things from a nihilist point of view.

Well, just let your kids know that you can, in fact, be wrong, and that they should research these viewpoints and theories for themselves, and devise their own worldview from there. Buddhism, as I've studied it, is mostly a theory of empirical thought anyway, and nihilism also plays a big part in it. Nobody said you had to adhere to any singular system of thought. Even LordSword borrows from multiple systems of thought, it's part of having a balanced perspective. I'll probably teach from a mostly taoist perspective, but like I said, I'll be borrowing from a LOT of different sources.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.