Bush is a crook.

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Posted by Watts
Really, is what Bush doing that shocking? Those were just a few examples. He hasn't rounded up Arab-Americans and thrown them in camps. He's only suspended habeas corpus in the case of foreign nationals. He started a war, and lied about it. But plenty of presidents who have started wars have done that. So he has some innocent Iraqi's blood on his hands. So does Clinton. In fact Clinton has even more Iraqi blood on his hands thanks to UN sanctions on medicine. So we tortured some people... yeah, like that hasn't happened before?

Of course the US has a very ugly history. The thing is, when we rounded up Japanese-Americans and sent them to concentration camps, suspended habeus corpus, or got our troops stuck in a useless war over in Vietnam, it's universally agreed that our former presidents fucked up. It happens. Every country has had bad leaders and done stupid things.

It's shocking now because when people make mistakes, you're supposed to learn from those mistakes so that you don't make them again. And Bush is showing a staggering lack of hindsight when it comes to the blunders of his prececessors. If this was the first time any of this were happening, it would be awful but it'd be a learning experience. There's no excuse for it now, when the country has screwed up like that before and should know better.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

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Posted by Watts
You're making a huge assumption assuming that the Bush Administration is lacking the ability of foresight. Everything from the war in Iraq, to the war drums beating over Iran screams of foresight. Maybe you just think it's an odd coincidence that Bush is starting to sound like Jimmy Carter three years after Iraq when energy prices are rising? Another coincidence being that the Republicans could possible use the Iran war drums a'beatin' to discredit the Democrats in the coming elections when no attack materializes?

I don't believe in coincidences. While I don't believe what the Bush Administration is doing is entirely sane, I can't believe they don't have reasons for doing what they are. We just don't know about them.

I don't have to assume. All I have to do is point at the current state of Iraq. You pretty much have to be snorting whole poppy seeds to have any illusions that any sort of foresight went into that invasion.

I'm not quite sure what your point is here. Of course they had reasons for all the dumb stunts they've pulled. I was saying that, had Rumsfeld, Bush, and company taken more than a cursory look at Korea and Vietnam, they would have realized that an invasion probably wasn't such a good idea. Hell, if Bush had listened to his dad, he would have realized that.

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Hate stating the obvious, but we don't live in an ideal world. Back to Bush.

The NSA domestic spying, the Valerie Plame affair and more. All of which could have come out before the last presidential election. This leads to me to believe that Bush is nothing more then a scapegoat. For what? Who knows.

Ideal world, no. That makes it okay?

As for the NSA and security leaks, my theory? The Democrats are incompetent fuck-ups. Yes, they could have raked Bush over the coals for this back in 2004, but they didn't. Kerry didn't even put up a defense against the Swift Boat Veterans. They're just now getting around to it because elections are coming, and they need something to fight back with.

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Posted by Wesker
[stuff about Clinton]

...I hope your argument wasn't just "Clinton did it too, so that makes it okay!" Your current avatar is painfully appropriate if that's the case.

Also, excerpt was terribly vague about what precisely Clinton actually DID.

There's nowhere I can't reach.